SoberNotMature - Episode 102 (Verbally Spanking The Groundhog)

Bill (00:02.094)
All right, all you woodchuck-chuckers. It's Groundhog Day! See, I knew I could make you laugh. I had that planned and they're gonna put a little... It's cold out there. It's cold out there everywhere for every day. And of course, welcome, our friends, to another episode of Sobered Aperture. There we go.

Mike (00:04.837)
Ha ha!

Mike (00:10.061)
Hehehe

Mike (00:14.423)
It's cold outside!

Mike (00:19.459)
Right, every day, over and over and over.

Yeah.

Right.

Bill (00:31.35)
Yeah, I kind of had that planned out anyhow, but when Mike and I just connected, literally, we usually connect for about, what, seven seconds, and then it's like, yeah, you good? I'm good. Let's go. And he had this, huuuuuuu, in his voice, and I'm like, I'm about to make my friend laugh. So. But yeah, so yeah, what was the deal? So the fucker did, I don't even know what it is. Did the fat fuck see a shadow? Did not see a shadow?

Mike (00:39.631)
Right. Yeah, it's good. Let's go.

Mike (00:46.037)
Hehe

Yes you did. Agh!

Mike (00:58.222)
I believe he saw it.

Bill (01:00.366)
So it's early spring, but I never know which is which. But. S.

Mike (01:03.087)
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, right. The rat saw his shadow and so we winter will be over with soon. I don't know. Or it won't.

Bill (01:07.202)
Ha ha ha.

Bill (01:11.562)
Right, so yeah, early spring means what? The 18th of March, 19th of March maybe? I mean, every year it's, I don't know. They were talking about it on the radio. They do every year and kind of make it. Yeah, oh, exactly. I mean, in Wisconsin, and this is a, whatever you wanna call it, a written or weather fact or whatever, there's literally only three months out of the year that in the Milwaukee area, at least and certainly up north, that

Mike (01:16.619)
Shit. Right.

Mike (01:23.863)
It'll snow in fucking April. Who knows?

Mike (01:39.093)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:39.522)
that there hasn't been measurable snowfall in this June, July, August, you know, so, you know, all the way through May, I remember plenty of snow storms in May and September, not as much but you know, I mean, it's happened. So yeah, I mean, it's it says spring on the calendar on March, what 20th or 21st or whatever the deal is. But yeah, that's usually when usually what comes out of fucking groundhog day. Oh, six more weeks of winter. That's what Bill Murray makes that comment. Oh, I'm predicting March 16th or

Mike (01:41.743)
Right.

Mike (01:51.479)
All right.

Mike (02:03.585)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (02:08.855)
Right.

Bill (02:10.094)
Yeah, but so anyhow, whatever. But so obviously I know we've got your reading. I got some things to talk about. I got back from a trip. I want to talk about that. I went to a couple of meetings while I was down there. So, you know, checked out the secret society in a different area and then yeah, had a little bit, the travel was fine, but I'll get to it. Then yeah, went to a funeral this week. I think obviously you know that. And I did a post on that too. So I'd like to just talk about a couple of things with that. And then

Mike (02:19.629)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (02:24.388)
Nice.

Mike (02:31.535)
Uh-huh.

Bill (02:36.978)
I don't know, whatever the fuck else we want to talk about. Oh, I started a new job on Monday. So yeah, got that all coming up. So yeah, I'm going to be a working man again. I know, you know what? That kind of all that stuff is what it is. And well, I'll talk about it. No regrets, but we'll talk about it. So, but now, hey, Mike, let's, let's do a reading. Mike, back to you. No, wait, I'm sorry. Mike, over to you. Well, thanks, Bill. Let's do a reading though.

Mike (02:39.307)
Right. Yeah. It's about fucking time.

Mike (02:51.555)
Yeah.

Mike (02:56.427)
Yeah. All right. Ah, well, thanks, Bill.

Let's do our reading. Oh, let's not. No, let's do it. Yeah, one jumped out at me this week, but I think I've already read it. It was dog-eared and it sounded familiar. So I had no clue what I was gonna do. So I sat my ass down here and flipped through the book and came up with this one. July 31st. Ah, I wish it was July 31st. It's not though. Patience, my friends, patience.

Bill (03:06.85)
Ha ha ha.

Mike (03:35.379)
All right, how can I believe in a higher power? I was taught that God is just an idea that weak people use as a crutch. Alcoholics Anonymous member said that. I may have said that once or twice in my life. Anyway, after we admit how serious our addiction is, we have to face our fear and sadness. Without the help of a higher power, we are hopeless. That is why we must.

each find a higher power that can give us the help that we need. Some of us don't like step two because we think it asks us to believe in somebody else's idea of God. It doesn't. It doesn't even ask us to believe in our own idea of God. The most important thing is to find a higher power, not less, not necessarily the higher power, to help us stay sober.

One that can teach us to succeed in sobriety and one that we trust. We don't have to understand this higher power, we just have to believe that it works. Prayer for the day. Higher power, I ask you to come into my life and show me how to trust and understand you. Today's action. Today I will make a list of three people or things that know more about recovery than I do. I will circle the one I trust the most.

Bill (04:59.082)
So, is that why we're getting together? Because, you know, me, you trust. Ha ha ha.

Mike (05:05.38)
Well yeah, I do trust you. I don't know why. I don't have to understand it. I just do.

Bill (05:07.127)
Hehehe

Bill (05:11.89)
Yeah, and that's that is the thing. And we, you know, that's kind of funny because we've talked about that plenty of times that, you know, the two of us and there's not many people, I mean, a lot of people can say it, but, you know, people that have been around each other for this amount of time and sobriety that, you know, with the exception of a couple of days before you got to the Keating Center while I was there, I mean, we have literally been together, you know, and been on the same path since.

Mike (05:25.703)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (05:32.142)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (05:36.22)
Mm. Right.

Bill (05:39.01)
day fucking one, you know? Same fucking place. Not the same feelings when we went in there, but if you wanna listen back to, what was that, episode four about our first 30 days, Mike's impression and when he walked in there all fucking happy and ooh, I'm done. And I'm like, mother fuck me. But that's okay because, you know, again, we came in two different sides of the road and ended up in the same path. But, you know, so.

Mike (05:46.449)
Well.

Mike (05:50.864)
Right.

Mike (05:57.347)
Mmm. Hehe

Bill (06:05.622)
Going through all that stuff, it's funny how you see things or I see things or I have or you have or I have not or you have not. And it just goes to show that there are so many different ways to get this thing. But the key there is to rely on other people. That's the biggest thing. Obviously listen and try to learn and try to retain and all those sort of things. But being around people that can sometimes put it into different words.

Mike (06:12.989)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (06:25.017)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (06:29.051)
Right.

Bill (06:34.658)
then what you're hearing is everything, right? I mean, I think so.

Mike (06:37.679)
Right. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, well, clearly our way of doing things and thinking about things wasn't working out too well. So we need some new fresh ideas and some new fresh actions to take. Right.

Bill (06:46.742)
Hehehe

Bill (06:52.09)
Right? Yeah. And it is, I mean, just, I mean, not just between you and I, but all the, all the different people that we know and that we have known and all the stories and the leads that we heard and the, these little pieces of information that, you know, happened, you know, years ago, when we were 30, 60, 90 days sober that we hold on to, you know, and, and still remember, I mean, they're meaningful, but they weren't, they weren't necessarily the, the book knowledge. They were the, the people that had walked the path and said, hey, this is how I did it.

Mike (07:02.287)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (07:09.487)
Right? Mm-hmm.

Bill (07:21.15)
Or they said it, like I said, almost in layman's terms, I guess, if you put it that way. Not that, I mean, if you read through the big book, I don't think it's hard to understand. It's not like, I mean, I've read in the past, bits and pieces of the Bible, not a lot. And I've read Shakespeare, because I had to. It's not like reading either one of those, but sometimes when you're reading it, it's still just the black and white words don't make sense. But somebody's like, no, it's this simple.

Mike (07:34.983)
Hmm.

Sure. Right? No.

Mike (07:48.483)
Yeah, right. This is what it means. This is, this is how you apply it to your life. Yeah. Yes, it can.

Bill (07:53.442)
Could it be that simple, right? I just didn't know. But, so what I wrote down was, God is a crutch. And I think the way that read to begin with was a lot of people said that, you know, the whole higher power thing and people looked at it as just people, other people using God as a crutch. Am I correct at how that was worded? Okay.

Mike (08:14.119)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, right, you know, weak people need, right, need the magic man who lives in the sky to get them through their day. Right.

Bill (08:17.921)
Right.

Mike (08:28.455)
Hmm.

Mike (08:35.886)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (08:46.824)
Right. And

Mike (08:48.821)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (08:53.494)
We've said it before, no I have, I can't draw a picture of what my fucking higher power is, I don't know what it is. I know what's there. It's gotta be there, right?

Mike (09:02.988)
Right. Mm hmm. Right. I mean, you know, and, and it's funny, the deeper I get into this thing, um, the more and more the program is a power greater than myself for me. It really is. You know, it, it doesn't, again, set it a million times on here. I'm an atheist. Yes, what I am. I don't believe in all the mumbo jumbo and the magical stuff. And that's fine. You know, if you do cool. Um,

great. But I need practical stuff. I need, I need, you know, like I said a million times, I don't believe in the supernatural. I don't believe in metaphysical, natural and physical are pretty fucking amazing to me. And it's enough for me. But yeah, but I mean, the program of Alcoholics Anonymous with the principles that it entails and the

the actions that you have to take and all that. It's all not me, it's all bigger than me and more powerful than me, and it is a power greater than me. And that's enough, yeah, you know, it is. It is enough for me.

Bill (10:06.958)
Right, right.

Yeah, we just have our services and clubs and church basements instead of a building with a steeple on it, right? Yeah. And that's really, I guess, stepping back and thinking about that. I mean, I know we always joke about it. But I thought that was a little weird when I first started going to meetings. Because I do, I remember, I went to meetings with, and Kathy and I went to meetings with our dad every once in a while. And even in my.

Mike (10:14.648)
Right.

Right. Yeah. Well, we're just underneath the room that they do that in.

Mike (10:31.7)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (10:37.536)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Bill (10:39.414)
you know, when I was, when I worked for him, so I was, you know, 17, 18 years old, 18, 19, whatever it was, we went to, you know, me and him and his buddy, Stu, who I've talked about a little bit, you know, used to go to meetings and it would be in, I don't think we went to, I don't remember. I remember being in, when I was a kid, being in big smoky rooms, you know, almost like, uh, I remember it was like a, like a restaurant area we might've met in one time or, uh, you know, like a, uh, a banquet hall or.

Mike (10:48.835)
Right?

Mike (10:58.883)
Great.

Bill (11:05.846)
you know, that sort of thing, which is, you know, if you remember like heating bends and stuff used to be at that. Yeah, you know, so same type of setup type of thing like that. But but yeah, I mean, it's I mean, when you think about it, I don't know. I thought it was weird that they it was in a church, but it was not supposed to be a religious thing. I didn't like I don't remember having a problem with it. It just, you know, as I thought about it, I'm like, yeah, we're in a fucking church, you know, in a church basement, you know. But yeah, I mean, whatever. It's just it's.

Mike (11:06.139)
Hmm. Right. Yeah. I was at the Knights of Columbus all. Yeah.

Mike (11:24.089)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (11:29.731)
Right. Hehe

Bill (11:35.198)
And sometimes you're sitting there and you're sitting in the area where they have Sunday school. So you see Jesus up on the wall, you see the God sayings and all that sort of things. And do you remember? And I think I brought it up on here, but either way, if I don't remember, nobody else is going to fucking remember. So when I first started working, the first job that I had, not my real job, but the factory one when I worked third shift, the three to 11, the only meeting I could go to was 7 a.m. It was up on

Mike (11:39.987)
Mm-hmm. Oh, sure. Yep.

Mike (11:52.902)
Right.

Mike (11:58.283)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Bill (12:05.978)
I can't think of the fucking road it was, but Lorraine, there you go. And that was, that was at a church and it was in one of the meeting rooms and things like that. And I mean, literally like right next to, you know, where the whole open church area was. And if I remember correctly, it was, you know, cafeteria table set up kind of horseshoe set up, if I remember correctly.

Mike (12:07.267)
Lorraine. Yep.

Mike (12:22.735)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think I went to an evening meeting there a few times, so yeah, yeah. I know the church, right? Yeah.

Bill (12:26.454)
Oh, did you? Okay. And it was, it was nice. It was a nice little discussion meeting, but that was an AA sanction meeting. But it was in a church and there happened to be Bibles or something like that, either in the room or on the table or whatever it is. And a number of people complained about it and AA removed them from, they removed them from being a sanctioned meeting because they were being accused of bringing religion into the program.

Mike (12:41.231)
Mm-hmm

Mike (12:55.616)
Really? Ehh!

Bill (12:56.37)
Yeah, and I was I was fucking blown away by that. I'm like, wait, how what? And the meeting was like they still held the meeting They just couldn't be they weren't going to be in the book anymore or anything like that And I remember them announcing it and um, because my first thought was like fuck This is the only meeting I can get to what the fuck, you know Um, and it didn't they didn't stop meeting. They just they were they were no longer advertised, you know through Central office and this and that night and at the time and I thought it was shitty and I now I think it's even more

Mike (13:08.816)
Huh.

Mike (13:14.939)
Right?

Mike (13:26.287)
Yeah right, that is shitty.

Bill (13:27.754)
You know, and it was just, there was never, there's more God talk in a general AA meeting, any fucking general AA meeting that I go to, than I remember in that particular meeting. And nobody brought up a Bible and like, or anything like that. But some motherfucker or motherfuckers, plural, complained about it. Yeah, they got stripped of their, you know, their AA standing. I was, again, yeah.

Mike (13:36.556)
Oh yeah! Yeah!

Uh huh.

Mike (13:44.804)
Yeah, right.

Mike (13:49.191)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (13:53.547)
Wow. Yeah, but they made it anyway. So there you go. Yeah.

Bill (13:57.578)
Yeah, they said, fuck, welcome, we're still gonna meet, or we're just not on the schedule anymore. But yeah, I don't know if I ever talked about that on here, but from your reaction, you sure as fuck don't remember. I know that much. Ha ha ha.

Mike (14:01.223)
Yeah, sure.

Mike (14:06.652)
Now.

No, no, right. And I probably shit, man. If I'd have been going to that meeting regularly, like, you know, whatever, and had done that, I would have continued to go to that meeting. Yeah, you know, this atheist would. Right, fuck that shit, man. I mean, that's one of the things I like about AA is it's run from the bottom up. It's supposed to be. And Jesus, man, somebody complained that there was a Bible in the room. I mean, you know.

Bill (14:35.611)
Yeah, it was something that simple, yeah.

Mike (14:36.503)
Right. My home group is, is the basement of a big ass old Catholic church. And you know, yeah, there's, there's crucifixes all over the place and you know, big giant St. Patrick picture of him and, um, yeah, you know, I ignore it. Or it's just there.

Bill (14:54.338)
Well, you haven't, I don't, you've been going to that for like, you know, almost 14 years. I don't think you've, you haven't even melted walking into the building yet, have you? Ha ha ha.

Mike (14:58.255)
Yeah.

Mike (15:01.611)
No, no. Well, it wasn't a Lutheran church when I first started going. So that was a little easier. It was a gymnasium there. So, um, right. You know, but, uh, they went back to their original meeting place, which because the Catholic church had closed down for a while and they opened it back up and, uh, yeah, you know, cause they, I don't know, weren't making enough money or something, but apparently they are now. Um, but yes, yeah, that's right. And like you said, you know, there, there's,

Bill (15:05.17)
Hahaha.

Oh. Ha ha ha.

Bill (15:26.172)
Hahaha!

Mike (15:31.735)
A regular generic, whatever a meeting. Yeah. There's going to be plenty of people in there talking about God and even a few about Jesus and, you know, you know, so what.

Bill (15:40.646)
Oh, yeah. Yeah, and in some, it's a fucking lot, you know, but it's just one of those things where I'm like, oh, okay, we get it. You're a god guy. I got you. There you go. Rock on, god guy. So back to the reading though, and a couple of things that said, hopeless without a higher power, obviously having to find a higher power, that's something that we were told. And once again, we've talked about this plenty of times that...

Mike (15:45.655)
Yeah, right.

Yeah, yeah, all right, gotcha. Cool, yeah, yep. Hehe

Mike (16:09.349)
Right.

Bill (16:09.83)
The simplest thing that I heard was from our very, very good friend Dan. You know, rest is wherever he's resting, let him rest in peace. And, you know, just said, hey, you know, just know what's not you. And he even offered to lend all of us his higher power because he's like, I have a higher power. He goes, if you want to borrow mine, he goes until you find one of your own. And, you know, I laugh at it now. But at that time, I'm like, what a fucking gesture that was, you know, just that. Well, he was a good dude to begin with. And he was one that

Mike (16:14.598)
Right?

Right?

Mike (16:26.284)
Right.

Mike (16:30.867)
Hehehehehehehehe

Mike (16:35.391)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Bill (16:39.71)
along with hundreds of other people, but he knew how to get this across to people who had just fucking wide-eyed, had no fucking idea what was going on, that here, just relax. It's not you, and you can make the bar of mine. It's cool. But then I wrote down the word trust. Obviously, we have to trust in something, that something else is there, which I trusted Dan and not even knowing him that well, but then believing that it works.

Mike (16:49.031)
Mmm.

Mike (16:52.291)
Yeah. Right.

Mike (17:01.211)
Mm-hmm. Right?

Bill (17:08.938)
that I think either one of us, but I'll speak for myself, is the only way that I came to believe that it worked was seeing it work in other people's lives and then listening to them and being like, settle the fuck down, don't stress about this shit, it will work out. And then it did, and then it did again, and then it did again. And believe me, and I said this a few weeks ago, whatever it was, with this whole goddamn job search, you know?

Mike (17:18.618)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (17:23.719)
Mm-hmm. Right. Hehehehe.

Bill (17:35.706)
My stress level doesn't change and it hasn't changed in almost 14 years, but I don't even know how to make myself feel better except for saying, fuck it, somebody else's will not mine. That's all I can do now and just go to sleep.

Mike (17:40.711)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (17:49.775)
Right? Yeah. Well, again, yeah, the faith and the trust that, you know, if you do the right thing, you know, it's gonna work out. It may not work out the way you wanted it to, but it's going to work out and it's gonna be okay. That's all that matters. Yeah, right. Again, faith and trust, you know, it's gonna work out probably not the way I want it to, but that's okay too. It's still gonna be okay in the long run. I'm gonna keep breathing.

going to be relatively comfortable. Um, you know, I'm going to eat, I'm going to sleep. I'm going to, you know, right. It's going to be okay. I'm not going to be out on the street starving. It's going to be fine. Something's going to work out.

Bill (18:30.158)
Right? And usually, and you're the one that says this all the time, is usually it turns out better than what we thought, you know? And you know, it all falls into place sooner or later, but I'm telling you, no fucking joke, I have no patience. Well, okay, I have very little patience and it's really hard for me, and Mike laughs because he knows, but I have to talk about it because it's so ridiculous to me, but it does. I was getting...

Mike (18:37.068)
Oh yeah, yeah.

Mike (18:46.767)
Thank you.

Mike (18:51.562)
Right.

Bill (18:57.79)
I was getting so stressed out, but it's not the first time. I can get stressed out about things like that because these are life things, but still I did, I kept doing everything, did the work, doing it, have the faith. Every night when I'm doing my prayers, fuck it dude, your will not mine, whatever you are, it's your will, I guess I'll go to sleep now. I mean, okay, what else am I gonna do? Drink? Ha, ha, all right. Hey, hey, you know what sounds like a good idea?

Mike (18:59.78)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (19:08.201)
Huh? Mm-hmm.

Mike (19:16.189)
Right. Yeah. Exactly. Right. Yeah. That'll make it better.

Bill (19:27.614)
ruining my life again. Hmm. Note to self, you can ruin your life again. Yeah, and that's the other thing with this whole higher power, higher power stuff is that, I mean, sometimes it's all we have to do, no, not even sometimes. All the time, all we have to do is get out of our own way and let the, you know, trust the process. And that's why I just wrote down the word trust. And believing it works is you have to pay attention to other people in your circle, in your group.

Mike (19:31.812)
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Mike (19:46.043)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (19:50.474)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (19:56.566)
You have to watch other people. You have to see the other miracles, if we want to put it that way. You know, or just see the other progress in people. Hey, and I'm not of the opinion, and I've said this before, you know, if I can do it, you can do it. Fuck that, that doesn't happen. You know, because we, you gotta do the work. But if I see somebody doing the work, and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do the same thing, I'm gonna do that work the same way, I should get a relatively same or close to the same, relatively speaking, result, right?

Mike (20:01.056)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (20:13.127)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (20:23.635)
Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Energy in energy out. Yeah.

Bill (20:26.71)
Yeah, okay.

Right. But yeah, I like that. Yeah, to begin with that, I had muted already when you said, what was this July 31st? It was July 31st. I laughed. I did. I laughed because, yeah, and that's, I could talk about my trip a little bit because the weather was, obviously the weather was nice down there, but so anything else with the reading at all?

Mike (20:38.223)
Right. Hehe hehe

Mike (20:49.933)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (20:55.292)
Um, yeah.

Mike (21:01.36)
This is...

Bill (21:05.932)
Okay. All

Mike (21:13.543)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (21:26.491)
Mm-hmm. Bye.

Bill (21:26.53)
you know, when it comes to that. And hopefully, well, I hope everyone else does too. And if you don't, well, fuck it, man. You know, because I was gonna bring that up too. And I was watching our, cause our last couple of episodes, you know, that, you know, the one from last week with Ginny and Amanda and the R1, you know, from two weeks ago, you know, it's like these episodes are struggling to get to that, to that hundred, you know, a hundred plays, which is our, was our norm, you know.

Mike (21:31.043)
Well, yeah. Again, if you don't, you know what to do.

Mike (21:56.356)
Right?

Bill (21:56.394)
in a seven day period, but you know, in part of it, I'm looking, I'm like, I don't know. We look in the summertime and people are busy and then, but it's, I don't know. It is what it is. So, you know, I, not, again, not something I'm stressing about, but it's a curiosity type of thing. And then, you know, I say something like that and then we're both like, yeah, fuck it, then don't listen. Okay. Yeah. It's just, I don't know. I don't know. It's just kind of funny. Oh, a couple of things.

Mike (22:05.711)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (22:16.807)
Great. Hehe

Bill (22:24.222)
A quick program note, so when we had Carly and Breeze on, so if everyone remembers, Breeze is the one that did the little out music for us at the end of the episode. If you don't listen to it after we say our goodbyes, you should, it's fun. She did a great job, but we did an episode with them. God, was that six months ago now? It's been a little bit. But Carly was working on a book, and we had told her that when it was released, we tried to figure out a time to have her back on. So I saw on Instagram,

Mike (22:43.504)
Yeah.

Mike (22:51.769)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (22:53.802)
I don't know if it was yesterday, but I saw it for sure today. Um, her book's out now, you know, and I think it's the audio book. So I sent her a text and I said, Hey, you know, I said, you know, obviously let's figure out a time, you know, if you don't have any, anything scheduled over in the next few weeks and, um, I'm just trying to verify it, but she had said next Friday, which I think she means like the ninth, so this coming Friday, you know, not today, but a week from today. And then what I told her was, um, I said, you know what I said, why don't we do this? I said, come on for like the first half hour.

Mike (22:58.04)
Oh, cool.

Mike (23:13.391)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right.

Bill (23:22.506)
when we take our break, you can head out. You can have the first 30 minutes or 40 minutes to talk up your book and whatever, and then go out with your night. And I thought, I don't know, we'll try something different. We don't necessarily have to keep her for the entire hour, well, or hour and a half, for the entire timeframe. But I'm like, hey, in my head, I'm like, maybe that's a new, like an accidental format that we're gonna have, that dreaded, that other dreaded F word format. Format?

Mike (23:28.439)
Eh, cool.

Mike (23:36.905)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (23:49.127)
Hmm. Yeah. Format.

Bill (23:52.194)
Playoffs But um, but yeah, so she said She said yeah, but I texted her back just to just to clarify it if that's the case I'll promote it up this week. But yeah, if not this week next week, we're gonna we're gonna have Carly on again So take a look back. It was it was Carly and Breeze and I again, I can't remember I Could probably look but I'll look at a little bit then I can figure out what episode but yeah she's got a book down and she's doing a lot of you know, trying to promote it and you know, just

Mike (24:13.083)
Mmm.

Bill (24:21.378)
Helping out some friends or a friend, you know? So, yeah. But, so, nothing else? Nothing else on the reading, right?

Mike (24:24.207)
Right, cool.

Mike (24:31.319)
No, no, I'm looking up Carly and Bree's episode.

Bill (24:34.11)
Okay. And then real quick, I just wanted to ask you, have you heard the, the new, um, black rose song wanting and waiting? Look it up because, uh, I mean, I, it popped up on Spotify, you know, again, sometimes they show new releases and things like that, or maybe they were talking about it on the radio, but, um, it's one where if you just heard the song, you'd know right off the bat, it's a black rose and I like it. I mean, it's got, it's kind of snappy, you know, it's got that snappy beat to it, but it's.

Mike (24:41.558)
I have not.

Mike (24:50.183)
Mm-hmm

Mike (24:58.179)
Okay. Yeah, it's got a good beat and you can dance to it.

Bill (25:05.194)
It does. But yeah, no doubt it's classic Black Crow sound and everything. You can even tell the music opening up before he even opens up his mouth. I think I would know right away that it was a Black Crow's. But yeah, so there I was looking up. I mean, they're touring this summer. I would love to be there. Have you ever seen them? Or no? Okay. I would love to. I never have.

Mike (25:17.816)
Right?

Mike (25:25.667)
Yeah, yeah.

Mike (25:33.72)
Right?

Bill (25:34.746)
Was it the Shake Your Money Maker thing? They were, their concert was just, just redoing that album, right? Every, all the song? Oh yeah.

Mike (25:37.115)
Yeah. Right. And they were supposed to tour with Aerosmith and that fell through cause you know, those guys are all fucking old and decrepit and fucked up on drugs. So yeah.

Bill (25:48.115)
Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I haven't really paid too much attention to it or looked into it. But yeah, I thought that they'd be, I don't know, I think you'd enjoy it. I know you like the black rose. So that was a complete, complete side note having nothing to do with anything. But you know what, kids? That's what the fuck we do around here. Yeah.

Mike (25:58.288)
I do.

Mike (26:01.767)
That was.

Mike (26:06.071)
Right. And if you're curious, Carly and Breeze was episode 83.

Bill (26:10.642)
Okay, God, that's been a while ago. Shit, wow, okay. So yeah, go back and listen to episode 83. You'll hear both of them. They both have a fun story, and you know, again, how they met and how they got together. And individually have great stories, but yes, you know, Carly's been working on this stuff and working pretty hard. So, you know, once again, we see these people out there, these, you know, and they're young, and you know, not just young by age, but young in sobriety.

Mike (26:24.647)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (26:34.966)
You know, some people out there that are out there doing the thing and kicking some ass doing this stuff, you know, we want to help them out.

Mike (26:35.172)
Right?

Mike (26:41.351)
Absolutely. Cool.

Bill (26:42.87)
All right, so, um, do you want to hear about my little brief thing about my trip? You feel like you're okay. So, you know, I had mentioned it kind of on a couple of weeks ago, I think, towards the end of the episode that I had just decided to take a, you know, what the hell type of trip and, um, booked a trip down through Airbnb, through, uh, or in Berger beach. And it was, uh, I dunno, I'm trying to do the math and all that stuff and I know when I could leave and when I could get down there, it's like a 14 hour drive and

Mike (26:47.643)
Sure.

Bill (27:10.974)
I could check in at 4 p.m. on Thursday, but the more I thought about it, I'm like, I was gonna leave at like midnight, you know? And midnight here, we should've been at one, doing the math, this and that. I'm like, fuck it. If I get there early and it was supposed to be nice, weather-wise, I'm like, I'll just fucking kick around in the nice weather, you know? Why not, you know? So I left it a little bit before 5 p.m. this time, so again, 6 p.m. Eastern time. And you know, this whole foggy thing that was going on.

Mike (27:27.268)
Right?

Bill (27:39.466)
So I hit a little bit of fog coming out of here and I'm going down, first of all, I'm going down 65 and I use Waze and it's like pothole ahead. I'm like, oh, and I see this truck hit this fucking pothole like Jesus Christ, another couple of miles, pothole ahead. Waze is notifying me and it's doing this and I'm like swerving, trying to miss it. I mean, these are big fucking, I mean, these are monstrous fucking potholes, you know? And I'm not kidding you, like every two, three miles. So.

Mike (28:00.313)
Uh-huh.

Bill (28:05.394)
I pull off and I'm like only a half hour into my trip and I'm trying to look at, you know, any place I can cut over. Cause to begin with, I wanted to go, I had planned on going, you know, out like route 30 and stuff like that and heading out that way. But it rerouted me probably quicker or whatever. So I ended up going that way. So first time I'm like, I can't see an easy way to cut over. So I'm like, fuck it, it'll be fine. If I keep going, a pothole coming out, pothole coming out, pothole. I'm driving like another half hour and it's foggy and it's dark. I'm like, I hit a couple of them too.

Mike (28:16.943)
Right?

Bill (28:33.674)
And I mean, fucking hard. And I'm like, either I'm gonna blow a tire or throw up my front, whatever. So I pull off again and I'm looking, I'm like, I don't give a fuck where I'm going. I'm just gonna start going east until Waze puts me into some other thing. Cause it kept like for, I don't know, 45 minutes or a half hour tried to reroute me back to 65, right? So finally got out, got around it. But I mean, it's foggy as fuck. I'm behind this truck, thankfully. Finally get around it. I lose like 45 minutes of time there, which is not a big deal.

Mike (28:33.912)
Uh-huh. Right.

Mike (28:52.108)
Uh-huh.

Bill (29:02.158)
So driving down there, and I think I told you when you and I had talked after the last episode, there was a couple of points that as I'm driving, I'm like, I can't see, you know, and as I get on, you know, these like freeway areas, and I'm like, fuck it, man, some animal jumps out in front of me. I'm like, I'm never gonna fucking see him. So I'm like, whatever, man. Boom, just fucking cruise it. And then, you know, I ended up going through like West Virginia and into Virginia.

Mike (29:21.565)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (29:29.206)
And I knew I was in like a mountainous area, but you know, it's dark and it's a little foggy and I'm going up and down these, you know, these hilly roads and shit like that, which was kind of cool. But you know, I'm looking up to the side and I'm like, God, I gotta come back this way so I could see this shit, you know, because you can see you're the fucking mountains all over you. So I get through all that and I get down there about, I know it's like, whatever time I texted all you guys, it was like, I think 8.30 in the morning. And at this point I had been up 24 hours, right? And...

Mike (29:29.243)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (29:41.932)
Right?

Mike (29:56.487)
Alright.

Bill (29:57.81)
I got up at eight because I had the meeting with Elise and the guys from Night of Recovery and all that stuff. So I did that and I figured I'd lay down. I did lay down for like a couple hours. I don't think I slept maybe a half hour, you know, so get in there and I ate some lunch and did whatever and it's one of those things where, you know, I don't know, I reached down to grab something and I'm like, my equilibrium is all off. I'm like, fuck me, you know.

Mike (30:09.067)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (30:22.766)
I'm like, I've been up for at this point, you know, after I eat and stuff, I mean, I'm up for like, now it's like 28 hours. I'm like, fuck, I'm not going to go to sleep. I was able to get an early check-in. So I check into the place. And then I had to go to the grocery store and I figured, get something to for dinner that night. And just kind of kicking around, you know, checking shit out. And it was fucking beautiful. Took a walk on the beach the whole bit. By the time I went to bed, which was like, you know, 10 o'clock, I had literally been up for like 38 hours.

Mike (30:48.647)
Nice.

Bill (30:50.818)
First of all, at that point, I'm just like, I had been, first of, I'm drinking coffee, you know, I mean, the entire time. So I'm buzzed up, I'm tired. I'm like, I'm not delusional yet, you know, but I'm just like, you know, I just, I almost like don't feel good, you know? You know, like, first of all, when's the last time I stayed up even 24 hours? I would have been, I was drunk, I know that much. But, you know, I don't think I've stayed up that all night since I've been sober, you know?

Mike (30:56.199)
Of course.

Mike (31:01.708)
Uh-huh.

Mike (31:11.011)
Right? Mm-hmm.

Bill (31:19.082)
But got a decent night's sleep and stuff like that and just kind of kicked around and, you know, hit some of the beaches and did all that stuff. I went to a meeting on Friday, went to a meeting on Saturday. So the AA meetings I went to, they were at a clubhouse and they were noon meetings. And I was actually in North Myrtle Beach. Have you been? I am assuming you have been in that area.

Mike (31:32.683)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (31:41.211)
Um, yeah, not a lot, not like that close to the ocean. You know, I've been all over the Carolinas and all that stuff, but yeah, never like actually in Myrtle beach. I don't think.

Bill (31:43.839)
Okay

Bill (31:51.634)
Okay. And I wasn't sure. I just know you've been mostly, usually when I'm like, I'm like, have you been there? You're like, of course I have. But so, so I was in like, I was in North Myrtle Beach, you know, from literally to get from North Myrtle Beach down to Myrtle Beach, like where the state park was and things like that, that I went to. It's like, I don't know, 16 or 17 miles, but takes you a good 35, 40 minutes to get there, you know, because it's, it's a business road, you know, kind of like, you know, like you're on the highway and it's like, oh, take business 101. And that's also, it's all the

Mike (31:55.351)
Right. Yeah, right.

Bill (32:21.61)
all the shops, all the restaurants, all the fucking bars and all that, and all the fucking, oh yeah, all the stoplights. So, but I hit these meetings and, you know, noon meetings on both Friday and Saturday, really nice group of people. And I think there was probably, I'd say 40 to 50 people in these meetings. Age groups, I would say anywhere between. I saw people probably in their 20s all the way up to, you know, easily in their 70s or 80s.

Mike (32:25.699)
Yeah, the touristy shit.

Mike (32:41.3)
Nice. Mm-hmm.

Bill (32:52.21)
Sober Time, well these are both considered to be beginners groups, which I didn't know, but I was kind of glad, it was nice, you know. And the meeting on Saturday, I think there was seven people that came up to get the white chips, which I thought was cool. This one chick, she went, she, because they do a count up to, you know, like all the way up to, you know, one year. And the number of people, you know, and that there's probably both days, I don't know, 12 to 15, 17 people.

Mike (32:56.903)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Mike (33:05.252)
Right? Mm-hmm.

Mike (33:11.014)
Uh-huh.

Bill (33:20.146)
that were under that year period, and most of them under six months, you know? So, which is cool. In this one chick, she's like, I don't even think I've got 24 hours, you know? And saying the trouble she had and this and that, she starts crying and whatever, troubles with her marriage and her kids and all that stuff. But so you see some of that, then this lady, the Saturday meeting was a, like a speaker meeting, but then they opened it up for comments, and the Friday meeting was a topic meeting to read from reflections or whatever it was, and then they do a discussion on it.

Mike (33:20.604)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Mike (33:35.847)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (33:50.006)
But I mean, it was just, it was nice. They open up with the preamble, how it works, and then the promises, both meetings. They do the count up, they do the coins at the end, you know, for anyone up to a year. And so they do that. And then kind of trying to think anything else that would be, they don't do a raffle. We didn't do raffles. That was just kind of a side joke, but.

Mike (33:57.863)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (34:09.811)
Mm, right. Heh heh heh.

Bill (34:15.746)
But no, it was nice. I mean, it was just one of those things where, you know, when they do, they're like, hey, oh yeah, they have everyone, all meetings like that. Everyone goes around the room and introduces themselves. They're like, hey, if you're visiting or from out of town, you know, say where you're from and that sort of thing. So, you know, both times like, hey, welcome, you know, when I said it, there's a few other people, handful of people there that we're visiting. But the thing that I said before, and I know you've done it before too, is that even though I don't go to a lot of meetings, I...

Mike (34:28.199)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (34:36.25)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (34:43.778)
That's one of my things. When I travel, I love to go to meetings in different areas. First of all, because you can always use a meeting, right? I mean, I can't deny that. But I just, I love to see AA in different areas. And they just have, it was a good meeting. It wasn't one where I'm just like, eh, you know, if they would have done things this way. Cause I can be judgy, you know? I mean, I'm not gonna lie. Well, I mean, both of us can, based on where we came from, you know, with the-

Mike (34:49.583)
Mm-hmm. Ciao.

Mm-hmm.

Mike (35:04.807)
Mm-hmm. Sure. No, really?

Mike (35:11.979)
Oh yeah, absolutely.

Bill (35:13.654)
with the Cleveland meetings, but no, they were just, it was really nice, just a nice group of people. And it was just, yeah, it was a good time. I'm glad I went. On Sunday, I did basically nothing, so I didn't go to a meeting, but the weather was nice. I mean, it was up and down between the low 60s to, it was like the mid 80s on Sunday. Sunday was the nicest day. And then when I left on Monday, I think it was like 43 degrees and the wind kicked up, and I'm like,

Mike (35:25.319)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (35:41.97)
Holy fuck! Yeah, but um, you know, here's the thing. So, my opinion of Myrtle Beach and that whole area, it's beautiful. It's wonderful. I think I would probably want to drive myself off a cliff if I were there in the summertime, because I think it would be, it took me long enough to get anywhere I wanted to go just because of all the stoplights, you know, and just the number of people that are there. I can't even imagine.

Mike (35:43.455)
Yep, time to get out.

Mike (36:06.255)
Mm-hmm. All right.

Bill (36:11.67)
You know, it's anything you could think of, a touristy area, you know. Um, it, it's gotta be just crazy, you know, during the summertime, but.

Mike (36:15.12)
Right.

Mike (36:18.607)
No, good to know. Cause I'm probably going down there like the end of May, beginning of June. So yeah.

Bill (36:25.994)
Right. Well, and here, hang on.

Bill (36:31.086)
Sorry, I had to clear my throat. But the thing that is just the, if I were to go, I would love to be what I would like. And Sunday was probably, even though I kicked around and I went to the restaurant on Saturday night, which was nice, I mean, but it was so foggy. It was hard to see certain things. I didn't get the, I don't think the full effect of like the piers that were there and those were under construction. So I couldn't walk out on those, all those long piers. That was from the hurricanes apparently, that they're doing construction on that stuff.

Mike (36:32.543)
Ah

Bill (36:59.902)
And then, you know, you just couldn't get some of the, I couldn't really get what I felt, you know, decent views of things because of the fog. But still, I was literally like from where I was staying, it was a hundred yards, if that, you know, from the fucking ocean, it was great, you know? But what I would do, I think, if I were there in the summertime, because the difference between that and like the Ozarks, I think I could go back to the Ozarks and have an endless amount of things to go and places to go.

Mike (37:11.527)
Mm-hmm, right.

Bill (37:28.502)
because all the different ins and outs of the lakes and all the different trails and stuff like that, you can just see something new every day, you know? Whereas with this, it's like, okay, so I just drove 30 minutes, I paid $8 to go into this park, which was cool. It's a nice park. You know, they had a little boardwalk, they had the pier and then the ocean and a beach. And then I went up to this other place and I pulled in there, walked out there and there's the ocean and there's a beach and there's another pier.

Mike (37:54.436)
Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.

Bill (37:55.37)
And then, you know, where I'm staying and I walk out, there's an ocean and there's a beach, you know. There was nothing special to see in my opinion, but I'm not taken away from the fact that I stayed in a place that was on the ocean. Because Sunday, like I said, I literally almost went nowhere except to get gas. And it was wonderful, you know. It just, I think, trying to, oh, lots of mini-gal places. Pirates must be a thing down there. Lots of mini-gal places with pirate themes.

Mike (38:07.311)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (38:19.444)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Heh heh heh. I'm gonna go get some food.

Mike (38:24.504)
Ah.

Bill (38:24.618)
I'm thinking that's a big deal. I did see the strip club. They had the playoffs playing. As I'm driving by and I'm going to dinner and I'm like, who way playoffs? They're like, big sign says playoffs playing here and whatever the name of it was. I'm like, ah, the strip club is not stupid. They're gonna get their clientele on that Sunday. Don't worry, don't worry. Come watch some titties and watch a football. But.

Mike (38:29.743)
Alright.

Mike (38:42.339)
Right?

Bill (38:50.794)
No, it was nice, don't get me wrong, but I just, I don't think that I could, you know, just I think it would be too much, too many fucking people around there doing the touristy thing and that's just not my deal. I would rather, and that's I think is the, I don't know, I was going to say weird part, but I don't know, maybe I've grown up to the fact that I don't care about that touristy shit anymore. I want to see nature shit, you know? And that's really what the Ozarks were. I just saw this natural beauty everywhere I fucking went, you know?

But I liked it, man. I had a great time. It was nice. But it's same as I always say, when I go into a town, I saw every bar. I saw every liquor store. I saw every place like that. You know, it's like I could see all these. It's got to be just a monstrous party atmosphere. It's got to be crazy down there, just crazy. But it's nice. I mean, I wouldn't shy away anyone from going there. But you know.

Mike (39:31.204)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (39:38.171)
Oh yeah.

Bill (39:46.87)
I would highly recommend if you find some place to stay on the ocean find your beach It's warm weather and I could have I could have spent the entire time just hanging out on the beach and doing nothing You know kind of like what you guys do in Mexico, right? Yeah So but so you're going down there when you said the end of a

Mike (39:55.879)
Great. Yep, pretty much. He, he, he.

Mike (40:03.459)
Yeah, probably we're trying to organize cause, uh, one of Chris's sons lives near there in North Carolina, so, uh, yeah, we're all trying to figure out when we all get together and hang out for long weekend. Yep.

Bill (40:15.914)
Right. Well, and there was, when I was looking at it, and I know I saved it, but there was a couple of places in, in North Carolina that I had, that I looked at Myrtle Beach just kept, I kept getting drawn to that I think just because the number of places, oh shit, the road that I stayed on, it's all, you know, vacation shit like that. When you go up a little bit more into like into the town area of like North Myrtle Beach and a little bit north of that. I saw a couple.

Mike (40:35.279)
Right. Yeah.

Bill (40:44.514)
couple of places I think were single-family homes, but most of them have vacation rental, vacation rental, vacation rentals all the way up and down. And some, you know, looked really nice and some look like just fucking shacks, you know, but all over the place up there. So yeah, it's just, that's why I'm saying I just can't, I can't even imagine the number of people. And you know what? I'm not an antisocial person, but I just felt like, you know, when you're trying to walk through a crowd and you're like...

Mike (40:50.638)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (40:56.071)
Nice.

Mike (41:04.943)
Heheheheheheh

Bill (41:12.166)
I just want to fucking walk to where I'm going. I'm trying to go to the goddamn fucking grocery store. I need eggs. I want to get out of my way. Ha ha ha. And then, ooh, look at the ocean. That's fine. But no, it was a good time. And then coming back, no big deal. I did go back through Virginia and West Virginia. And yeah, that drive did not disappoint. What I would like to do, I'd like to drive down there, whatever there.

Mike (41:18.023)
Mm-hmm. Great. He, he, he.

Mike (41:37.355)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (41:41.014)
I know our leaves peak at mid to late October. I don't know if theirs are later than that, but I would think so. But I would love to try to figure out when those leaves change. Whatever highway I went down through those mountains in West Virginia and into Virginia, I'd love to make that drive again in the fall. Because I think it would just blow my fucking mind. I'd be like, oh my god, do you see those leaves?

Mike (41:44.987)
Right?

I believe so.

Mike (42:00.092)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (42:06.168)
Right.

Bill (42:12.795)
See, look at what we've turned into. Oh my God, it's leaves, the moon, like we were talking to Heidi about, right? But yeah, so I recommend it, man. It was a good trip, long drive, but the surprising part was, I mean, I think, I don't know if that's the longest drive I've ever taken. I took a couple when I was younger, but it's been a while since I've driven that long straight. And I didn't get tired at all while I was driving, which was amazing, you know? So surprising in a good way.

Mike (42:16.291)
Right. Exactly.

Mike (42:33.647)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (42:41.327)
Right.

Bill (42:42.72)
So yeah, but alright, any questions for me, Mike, about my trip? Back to you. I didn't think so. But hey, you know what, looking at the time, I think it is back to you, right?

Mike (42:48.591)
No, none.

Mike (42:56.859)
Get this back to me. So is this us or is this our friends?

Bill (43:00.974)
uh... yeah this is a this is the least in the our friends again

Mike (43:04.055)
All right, well pay attention because it's not just us this time. This is a bigger thing. A power greater than us, if you will pay attention to this and we'll be right back after these words from our good friends.

Bill (43:25.038)
All right, everyone, welcome back. And that was very nice. That was a nice one. Very nice. Ha ha ha. Now you still gotta, you know, whatever time we sign off a year, you still gotta do your fuck off. So, you know, you're.

Mike (43:29.595)
Eh, whatever. I'm done. Hahahaha!

Mike (43:38.047)
Oh, okay. Well, that I got in me. Don't worry about that.

Bill (43:41.138)
You're funny, that I got it, B. But yeah, like I said, I think you'll enjoy it. You'll have a good time. Just watch the traffic.

Mike (43:50.533)
Oh yeah. I mean, it's gonna be hanging with family. So that's right. That's why I'm going.

Bill (43:53.771)
Right.

Right? Yeah, exactly. So, all right, so the other thing that this week, and I just want to talk about the funeral thing real quick. So, and I did, I posted it on Instagram when we got back on Wednesday, because it's kind of, these thoughts came over me, and, you know, so I just posted on it. And the main thing was, to just give a little bit of background, the person who died was my ex-mother-in-law. So my daughter's mom, Pam,

Mike (44:05.601)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (44:26.03)
who I've talked about plenty on here. And so it was her mom that passed away. And there's a little bit of a backstory on that, which I don't even know if you know, Mike, but so Pam and Dawn are, and her sister Dawn, not my ex-wife Dawn, but she's got a sister Dawn, and then brother Dean, and then they have their brother Ben who came from Carol and her dad. So their real mom died when Pam was eight, I think.

Dean probably would have been, I don't know, 10 or 12. And then Dawn was only like six months old when their real mom died, okay? And she had cancer, ovarian cancer and died. And kind of a big thing because obviously went through the pregnancy and had birth six months prior and then wasn't detected right away and it was bad and she died. So her dad, I don't remember when he met Carol is-

is the one who just passed away probably within three to five years I think. And then they got married and they had Ben and Ben is in his like mid-40s now I think so I mean they were together forever you know. But I mean she was she was there although not the three of them, Dean, Dawn, and Pam, not their biological mom, you know literally was their mom for years you know. So in

I just didn't know. I don't know. There was probably no reason for you and I to even ever have that conversation. But also she came from, Carol came from this side of the family of people that we went to high school with. So it was funny when Pam and I got together and we found all these people that related and then like weddings and get togethers. It was like almost getting together with a bunch of people from high school at times. And it kind of was here. We saw some of that family. But um.

So she was, I mean, she was obviously a big part of my life for several years. Pam and I were together, I don't know, eight years, whatever it was. And, you know, always kind to me. Her dad was, her dad was, and still is, I mean, he was always good to me, but it's still good to me. So it was, it was never in my thought when I found out that she got sick, whenever it was, she had cancer, maybe in the last year or six months, whenever it was, and it was my thought. I mean, whenever, gosh, whatever, well, it's going to happen, but whenever it does, I, you know, I'd like to be there.

Mike (46:21.531)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (46:33.116)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (46:41.648)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (46:47.658)
Number one, because she was part of my life, but also for my daughter and then that whole side of the family. But the thing that I had posted on Instagram was that, you know, that none of this stuff, me being there, obviously the event would have happened one way or the other, but you know, me being there doesn't happen if I'm not sober and doesn't happen if my daughter doesn't give me that second chance, you know, when I'm two years sober, whenever the hell it was. Because, you know, at that time,

Mike (47:10.826)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (47:16.074)
So she and I start rebuilding our relationship and then my ex and I do. And then, you know, I know the family starts and then her, Dawn, Pam's sister, friends me on Facebook. And then a couple other family members do. And then I see them at events and, you know, other things like that. And, you know, you walk in there and I don't know. I mean, these people clearly have heard all the bad shit that I did, you know? And I don't know what I'm walking into, but all of them, you know, had taken me back in, you know, which is really cool.

and unnecessary on their part. They don't need to do that. But it was just, I was grateful that, and this is just, I guess, a generalized story about this ripple effect that you and I always talk about. So anyone that's listening, whether you're new or whether you're working on or struggling with trying to get family back, just if you keep doing the right thing, in spite of yourself, in spite of myself, all these people.

Mike (47:48.62)
Sure.

Mike (48:05.863)
Hmm.

Mike (48:09.302)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (48:14.83)
I came back into their good graces almost with no work on my own part with the exception of just continuing to do the right thing and be a better person. I had to beg people to come back into my life. It just happened, which is amazing to me still. Again, how does this shit happen? Go back to the reading. How does any of this fucking shit work? So Kathy will with us too because obviously Kathy's known the family, of course, and always knew the family.

Mike (48:26.598)
Yeah.

Mike (48:30.364)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (48:35.389)
Great.

Mike (48:42.052)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (48:43.682)
So we get there and we walk in and we saw Kimmy and Brian right away. And they had the pictures and the receiving line and it was Ben and then Don and Pam and then Dean and then their dad. So, you know, I walked up to Ben and, you know, gave him a hug. And, you know, every one of them thanked me for being there. And I'm like, you don't have to thank me, man. I mean, you just don't, but, you know, you're welcome. But I wouldn't have missed this with, you know, if I, unless I didn't have the opportunity, I wouldn't have missed this. So, you know, then Don, and I know Don really well. She's a sweetheart.

Mike (48:59.803)
Mm-hmm. Hmm, right?

Bill (49:13.342)
Um, I'm hugging Pam, you know, too, and she's making sure she's okay. And same thing with Dean. And, um, then I get to her dad and her dad's like, her, her dad always called me Billy, you know, so he's just like, he, he gets tears in his eyes and he's just like, he's like, thank you so much, you know, for being here. And I was just like, fuck me in, in the best possible way. Fuck me. You know, because that again, this, this band, I mean, he was, he's just, he's a good dude.

Mike (49:29.767)
Hmm. Right. He he he. Right. Uh-huh.

Bill (49:42.218)
He really is a good dude. I got nothing ever. I don't think I've ever had anything bad to say to them or about them. You know, all the shit that we went through, they never, they never did anything bad to me, um, you know, but then got to see some ants and ants and uncles that I recognize, but couldn't remember their names. I'm like, was that in June? Was that in, you know, I'm asking Kimmy. She's like, which one? I'm like, I, like, I don't know. I, they all come up to me like, Oh, I haven't seen you in a while. How are you? But you know, the, um, I'm glad we, I'm glad we were there.

Mike (49:42.762)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (49:57.063)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (50:06.064)
Right.

Bill (50:11.57)
And I know that, again, it probably sounds weird to a lot of people. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but shit. It's just, this is a testament of what you and I always talk about, you know? We do all these things and all these relationships and all these people, and then we get to be there, you know, for people. And, you know, actually the people that, you know, it's not just like, oh, fuck, Kimmy's dad's here. Ha ha ha.

Mike (50:31.377)
Right.

Mike (50:36.79)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh Christ, who invited him?

Bill (50:38.87)
Yeah, and you know, if there would have been any question in my mind how these entire family felt about me, I wouldn't go because I wouldn't want to fuck up a moment like that, you know. But I knew I was cool to go, you know. But that's the point, you know. But it's everything we talk about. It was beautiful. I'm glad I was able to be there. And you know, just like anything else, you know, death is the inevitable thing. It's going to happen to everyone. And all that we can do is be there for people. And having that ability, I mean,

Mike (50:48.683)
Mm-hmm. Right, right.

Bill (51:09.102)
What more can we ask, right? So, yeah. Yeah, it was a day. Oh, Ali was there too. So, cause you know, while Kimmy was gonna take him, had it been closer, but I mean, it was down in Waukesha, which is, it's a couple hours away from hour and a half, hour 45 from where they live. So they just, she wouldn't have time to get back to the person who does her daycare with them. But, and he was.

Mike (51:10.707)
Great. Yeah, cool. Nice.

Mike (51:17.648)
Right.

Mike (51:27.59)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (51:36.142)
It was okay, but he was going nuts every once in a while. It was kind of funny, but he was having his moments. But then he was just walking around and big old smile on his face, hi. He'd go out to people, hi. And Kimmy's like, she's like, he thinks that everyone's here for him. And he's just walking around like, oh, all these people are here to see me. Ha ha ha.

Mike (51:38.565)
Mm.

Mike (51:47.709)
Hehe

Mike (51:52.451)
Of course.

Mike (51:56.003)
Right. Yeah. Well, exactly. Well, it's a wonderful example of what we used to be like. Everybody's here for me. Right? Yeah. We were goddamn emotionally retarded. We were, you know, year and a half to almost two years old in our heads. Yeah. Everybody's here for me. Hi. How you doing?

Bill (52:04.138)
Right?

Bill (52:12.694)
Right. Yeah.

Bill (52:17.142)
Yeah, that's actually a damn good way to put it. Because he's a month and a half away from his two year anniversary.

Mike (52:20.199)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (52:24.995)
Yep, exactly. Yeah. And that's, that's what an alcoholic is. This is a one and a half year old walking around in a man or woman's body going, Hey, look at me. This is all about me. La la la. Yeah. Right. And thankfully we're not that way anymore. We're there for other people.

Bill (52:29.537)
Right.

Bill (52:37.626)
Right, yep.

Bill (52:42.766)
Exactly. Yeah, not walking around drooling, screaming and wanting to know where their drink is. And after his milk was gone, he's trying to snacks. He doesn't want that. Yes. Yeah, he was he was fine though. And then we went we went grabbed pizza at a restaurant that Ben used to work at, but a restaurant in Della Field that's, you know, been around for fucking ever kind of high school hangout place too. So it was cool. It was nice. But yeah, like I said, it would just I would I don't know. It's just this wave of almost gratitude that

Mike (52:47.459)
Yup!

Mike (52:53.735)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (53:04.587)
Right. Nice.

Bill (53:12.426)
came across me as we were, like after we got back and I was just like, you know what, again, it's a weird way to say it, but it was cool. You know, I'm just glad to be a part of in a positive way, you know?

Mike (53:14.153)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (53:19.803)
Mm-hmm. Right. Absolutely. Glad you could be there for somebody else. And yes, positive. Right. Add to the, don't take away from it. Yep.

Bill (53:29.463)
Right.

Right? So we were at the restaurant. So Dean's wife, so Dean is Pam's brother, his wife Leslie, again, person we went to high school with, we've known her forever. I don't know, we were talking back and forth about something and she's like, oh, you never come around again, you never invite me out for drinks or anything like that. I'm like, well, because I don't drink anymore. And she looks at me and I'm like, I've been sober for almost 14 years. And she's like, really? She's like, oh wait, I knew that. And she's like, but you never invite me out for coffee. I'm like, yeah, you got me there.

Mike (53:49.318)
Hey, hey, hey. Uh huh.

Mike (53:56.896)
Uh-huh. Hehe

Mike (54:01.763)
Right. Hehehehehehehehe.

Bill (54:03.411)
But it was just kind of funny when she said that. She's just like, oh, yeah, it just didn't click. I mean, I don't see them that much. But right, yeah, it was not. It was not. But yeah, like I say, just to wrap up everything, everything I've been already saying, it was good to be there for other people. So yeah, so I think those are my two big things. Yeah, I start my job on Monday, but that's nothing big.

Mike (54:10.711)
Right. Yeah, again, it's not all about you.

Mike (54:24.666)
Mm-hmm

Bill (54:31.915)
You know, it is what it is. It took the time that it took, the frustration I've already talked about, but yeah, got all my, they shipped all the computer equipment and everything. And so I got all that and got everything all set up and logged into the things that I need to and yeah, start on Monday. So yeah, on the right road. And like I said, the biggest thing with this whole thing is that fully remote, no residency restrictions. So kind of once I get my...

Mike (54:45.635)
Huh? Alright.

Bill (54:55.19)
get my financial shit back in order and get my feedback under me, then I can go wherever the fuck I want to. Exactly. Nice. Thank you. Nice. But, yeah. So, all right. Anything else on anything? I mean, I know that's a lot of my shit that we talked about, but anything else on your mind? Because I got other things that I got a whole bunch of shit that I can pick away at here.

Mike (55:01.415)
nice.

Mike (55:14.532)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (55:19.579)
I got nothing on my mind. It's been a long week. It's I'm tired. Yeah. Um, right. Might have a couple of, uh, local people to come on the show with us eventually. One in particular, Chris, uh, did I mention it on here? I don't know if I did, but two weeks ago, she started working for the city of Cleveland. Yeah. And you know who her boss is? Alfonso.

Bill (55:21.334)
Alright, that's kind of what I've...

Bill (55:27.159)
Hehehehe

Bill (55:40.69)
Oh, Kristen? Oh, you know what? No, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Who? No shit. Oh, that's cool.

Mike (55:50.007)
Yeah. He's been trying, he's been trying to get it in there for a while. He was like, yeah, you know, she's, she's sharp. She's a, she's good worker. I want her working for me. And so it finally happened. So anyway, she, uh, she, she told him the other day, yeah, you need to come on the podcast and apparently, you know, well, you know, his home group is Friday night. And she's all, well, they can record other days. They could do you on Thursday. So, uh, we might be getting out on here.

Bill (56:15.773)
Well, if she should have just said, hey, you know, I mean, Michael's already come on and blew off the meeting. Megan's already come on and blew off the meeting. It's kind of our thing. That's our that's our thing to pick people out of Gordon Square. So but yeah, the only thing that Thursday night for me now, well, I don't think if we did it if we did it late, it would be as big of a deal. Because with the cool part is with this with the new job. And I found out for sure when I talked to the my.

Mike (56:20.267)
Right!

Mike (56:25.963)
Right!

Bill (56:41.218)
the manager that I'm going to have, they offer the ability to take half hour lunches during the week and they let everyone out at three o'clock on Friday. So I could do Fridays or never and that was, I heard that from the recruiter that had contacted me and I verified that because I'm like, I kind of have a Friday commitment that would help, you know, but it wouldn't be a big deal. I can work, I could still work around the Thursday. I mean, it's just, yeah, same thing. I mean, if we did it.

Mike (56:47.185)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (56:55.463)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (57:01.008)
Right?

Mike (57:07.144)
Yeah, yeah.

Bill (57:10.178)
Yeah, I can still do it. It's not a problem. We can work it out. Either way, I mean, if we get Al on there, that'd be cool.

Mike (57:12.591)
Hey, yeah, exactly.

Bill (57:16.918)
But yeah, I didn't know. I didn't know he worked for the city. Well, I mean, clearly, but... Heheheheh. Is he? Yeah, cause I was gonna say, I don't even know that I've ever known what he did.

Mike (57:22.317)
He's kind of a big deal down there.

Mike (57:30.015)
Uh huh. Yeah, he works for the city of Cleveland. And now so does Chris.

Bill (57:36.29)
Well, that's good. Well, Chris, if you if you happen to listen to this, congratulations, young lady. Yeah. But so you posted something on a picture on Facebook I saw right before we came out here. Somebody pass.

Mike (57:40.298)
Right.

Mike (57:49.291)
Ah, yeah. Brother Wayne Kramer from the MC five. Yeah. He, uh, 75 years old, passed today. Uh, former junkie. Yes. Yeah. Um, he actually wrote a book a couple of years ago. It's a pretty damn good called the hard stuff. Um, yeah, he was, he was hard. I mean, he went to, you know, prison, um, for a while, good long while, and, uh, turned his ass around and, um, he actually had a really cool charity.

Bill (57:52.423)
Okay, okay.

Bill (57:56.614)
Oh.

Really.

Mike (58:18.063)
that he worked God for the past probably close to 10 years, um, getting guitars into jails. Um, so the guys had stuff to do and make music and shit. Yeah. You know, plus, yeah, just Google Wayne Kramer, man. The guy, uh, had a storied career. MC five, the motor city five. Um, yeah, rock and roll legend, man. And, uh, yeah, he passed away today.

Bill (58:43.362)
Yeah, and I just saw the, I don't remember why I popped on the Facebook real quick, but I saw that picture and I'm looking at it, I'm like, who, I'm like, for a minute there, I'm like, was this another one of our fucking buddies that died? Because I'm looking at it, I'm like, I see that, I'm like, okay, I got to ask, I got to ask. Right. No, no, I know. And you must have been at some show or something like that where you, he was.

Mike (58:50.86)
hehehehehehe Now

Yeah, I mean, he's definitely one of us, but you never met him.

Mike (59:04.571)
Uh, it was actually, uh, the, uh, Cleveland, uh, international film festival. And, uh, the cream magazine documentary was showing and we went and saw it. And, um, after the screening fucking brother, Wayne Kramer came walking out. And I was like, Holy fuck. So yeah, I got to spend a good five minutes with them one time and I've seen them play several, several times. So yeah.

Bill (59:22.301)
Hehehe

Bill (59:30.41)
Right. Well, that's cool. Not that he died, but that's cool that you had the chance to meet him and stuff like that. So he's 75. I mean, that's a decent enough run. But still. Right? Yeah.

Mike (59:34.703)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Mike (59:41.408)
Yeah. Right. You know, considering it should have been dead fucking 40 years ago. Yep.

Bill (59:48.446)
Right? Yeah, that is the thing when it's like all of us, it's like, hey, that's a good run, especially because what the fuck we did to ourselves, right? But okay, so we could have Alan, you said maybe somebody else, huh?

Mike (59:55.459)
Right.

Mike (01:00:03.587)
Oh yeah, I ran into Wes about a couple months ago. Yeah, I mentioned it to him and he seemed to go for it. So I got to reach out to him here pretty soon too. And yep, he'll be, you know, and God knows Wes will be a good guest. So there you go.

Bill (01:00:06.654)
No, no shit.

Bill (01:00:17.49)
Oh god yeah. Well that's my first question for that motherfuckers. Why are you unfriended me on Facebook? No, I know. I haven't seen it. It was I think, shit I might even have still been in Cleveland when that happened. You know and I mean people do that. I don't give a fuck. I was just gonna fuck with him. Yeah, so Wes, I mean Wes was, he was a, I mean he was a fucking badass and a good dude though and came in, when did he come in? Was that July? Is this?

Mike (01:00:22.159)
The, he's not on there anymore.

Mike (01:00:31.024)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:00:45.991)
It was summer. Yeah. Right. Around the time Michael came in. Yeah.

Bill (01:00:50.314)
Yeah, that's what I thought. So yeah, June, June or July is his sobriety day. But yeah, he's one of the he's one of those, you know, the group of guys, the 10 or so that are left, you know, that have been sober as long as us. But yeah, he's a he's a fucking badass scared the fuck out of me. I mean, there's a few people that scared me. But yeah, he did until I really got to know him. And then, you know, I could I get fucked with him. And every once in a while, I'd say some wild shit to him around a group of people, especially younger guys and new guys that came in. And, you know, they kind of look at me and like,

Mike (01:00:53.061)
Right.

Mike (01:00:58.669)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:01:04.015)
Hehe

Mike (01:01:10.437)
Right.

Mike (01:01:15.735)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Bill (01:01:20.238)
He's gonna fucking kill you. And I'm like, nah, you know, we're cool now. We're cool now. But that'd be awesome, man. I haven't seen, I think the last time that I saw him, fuck, it was at a meeting someplace that you and I were at. We just, it was random, you know, that we walked into him but, or ran into him. So yeah, that'd be cool. All right, yeah. Work it out, finally. Now I can say that to you for once. Yeah, fucking work it out, man.

Mike (01:01:27.006)
Yeah, right.

Mike (01:01:36.308)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right.

Mike (01:01:41.956)
Yep.

Mike (01:01:45.531)
All right. Yeah, whatever. I'll get to it when I get to it.

Bill (01:01:50.358)
I know, I know, just fucking with you. All right, so, so one that I heard, this was a podcast thing, person said, I am not anti-alcohol, I'm pro-awareness. What do you think about that?

Mike (01:02:00.007)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:02:09.911)
Um, well, that's kind of what we're supposed to do. Yeah. Um, right. Pro awareness. Um, sure. I mean, I'm not really, I'm not anti-alcohol. I don't know how, uh, what a big fan I am of awareness either. Clearly. Um, you know, what most of my life, trying not to be aware.

Bill (01:02:21.123)
Ha ha

Bill (01:02:31.919)
Right.

Mike (01:02:36.175)
Um, just because I'm sober, it doesn't mean I want to be all that aware. I do like being, um, aware of my surroundings, but, uh, I think a little too much awareness is, uh, not all that good of a thing either.

Bill (01:02:49.646)
But I think what the way it was, if I remember correctly, and the kind of way that I heard it was, is making other people aware of what either sobriety could do or, I looked at it more as the attraction rather than promotion type of thing. Like, you know, awareness that way, the opposite, not us being aware, but other people being aware of maybe the effects of alcohol, what it could do with that sort of thing.

Mike (01:02:53.344)
Uh-huh.

Mike (01:03:03.168)
Oh, okay. Yeah.

Mike (01:03:08.601)
Ah.

Nah, all right. Ha ha ha.

Bill (01:03:15.267)
But then again, I just say there's so many people, and I see it more on, I see it a lot on Instagram, obviously, and everyone's quoting the statistics and the poison and the this and that, all those things. Yeah, and I mean, I, yeah, and I.

Mike (01:03:27.471)
Oh yeah. Well, it's rotten food. It's what it is. It's rotten corn and rotten grain and yeah, right. You know, spoiled food. Okay.

Bill (01:03:36.694)
Right, and I get all that, right, and I get all of it, you know. Right, but in the thing of it is, and you and I have been just so clear about that, that we're not standing up on, you know, a rooftop or, you know, even a small chair and trying to, you know, denounce alcohol, you know. It's just that, you know, we're sober. We can, they can, or they can, and we can't, you know. And.

Mike (01:03:39.919)
And it makes you feel real fucking good.

Right.

Mike (01:04:01.701)
Right.

Bill (01:04:02.698)
And granted, I mean, there's all the studies and the facts. And if people really want to look at it, it's just like anything else. It's like smoking, it's like fast food. It's like anything that's out there that there is some sort of harm, let's say to our bodies, people know about it. And if people keep doing it, they keep doing it. I mean, I'm not gonna go after people just because they drink and I don't. So I like the mindset of saying that it's, and I think what we do is kind of get

Mike (01:04:16.244)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:04:32.55)
If you really broke it down, I mean, we're not preaching against alcohol. We're not preaching in general. Um, but if you had to go on one side of it, we're providing awareness on what we went through, which what, what could happen to other people and blah, blah. So attraction rather than that either promote promotion or, you know, denouncing, you know, the, the product or alcohol or drugs or anything like that. So.

Mike (01:04:50.523)
Yeah, well, I think I just said it makes you feel really fucking good, you know, right so Just you know, we're selfish and self-centered and we have an allergy against it once we start we can't stop and you know But again, it really comes down to we're selfish self-centered and we want to fucking feel good all the goddamn time We want to feel really good all the time and that's just stupid Yep, yeah

Bill (01:04:54.442)
Right.

Bill (01:05:16.823)
Right, bye.

Mike (01:05:17.423)
Yeah. But alcohol itself is, it is what it is. Yeah. It's, it's probably not good for you, but like you said, there's lots of things that aren't good for you. So what?

Bill (01:05:27.891)
I know I've said this before, but the people that are all over the alcohol and the people that are drinking and stuff like that, that are probably shoving a fucking Big Mac into their face and just ate a snicker bar a minute ago, and maybe they're vaping.

Mike (01:05:38.417)
Mm-hmm.

Right. Oh, my, my favorite was, you know, junkies that were vegetarians. I just looked at them and went, okay, man, cool for you. I don't eat meat. I'm shooting heroin, but I don't eat meat. Okay. You're fucked up.

Bill (01:05:51.595)
Hehehe

Bill (01:05:58.327)
Yeah, that seems, yeah, it's a little bit of a, yeah. You know, the funny thing though, and I can't remember who I was listening to, and I've talked about Dax Shepard before, and I was listening to a bunch of his different episodes because he, you know, he interviews celebrities like Mark Merrin and like Smartless does and all that. And it was just a string of people that were interesting that I popped in and listened to. But I forget which.

Mike (01:06:08.365)
Uh-huh.

Mike (01:06:18.567)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:06:21.39)
There was somebody either on his podcast who was talking about that or whatever. There was, you know, basically like compensating, you know, completely 100% healthy in every way. But, you know, raging alcoholic and doing drugs and things like that. And the person said, you know, kind of in hindsight, they were probably doing that almost as a, I don't know, trying to compensate in their mind. I'm all healthy here so I could do all these things type of thing. I don't, and I don't know. I mean, if you're, if you're shooting heroin, I don't, do you, well, yeah.

Mike (01:06:34.183)
Uh huh.

Mike (01:06:42.895)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Bill (01:06:49.354)
We're all delusional, you know, in regards to what we're doing. See, I worked.

Mike (01:06:49.639)
You think it? Oh, yes. Thank you. That's it. We're fucking all delusional rationalizing and justifying anything

Bill (01:06:58.37)
That was like me just doing a math problem on a piece of paper and I just came to the answer. I'm like, okay, there it is. I worked out that problem as I was talking about it. So, okay, problem solved. Okay, so on another podcast, where did it go? God damn it. Oh, do you think, they were talking about this in kind of a general sense, but for you, Mike.

Mike (01:07:07.719)
Mm-hmm. He-he-he-he.

Mike (01:07:26.919)
Yes.

Bill (01:07:27.202)
Do you think that you made any mistakes when you first got sober or things that you did or didn't do that you would change if you had the chance? Or, these are just my thoughts, possibly, I don't know if I want to say words of wisdom, but any sort of advice or direction that you would give to somebody new. So once again, any mistakes that you think you made when you first got sober, things you did or didn't do that you would change if you had the chance.

Mike (01:07:52.903)
Absolutely not. Did I make mistakes? Hell yes, all the time. Still do. But they're there for a reason, you know, that whole higher power crap. You know, you got to go through what you got to go through to get to where you are, no matter what it is. Yeah, of course I made mistakes. Do I regret them? No, because I don't even fucking remember them. But I know I made them and again.

Bill (01:07:55.842)
Hahaha.

Mike (01:08:21.991)
I still do, but there are mistakes. I apparently I need to make to get to where I'm at here. I can't change the past. That's crazy talk. That's it. It is. Yeah, that's not the way I live today. I don't dwell on the past. I don't dwell on the mistakes I've made. I made mistakes and either I fixed them or I moved past them or.

Bill (01:08:35.535)
That's crazy talk!

Mike (01:08:50.438)
I've learned from them or I didn't or you know, I again, all I got is right now, right in this very second. That's all I have. And that was one that I learned. Yes, early sobriety, any words of wisdom. Yeah, you're going to fuck up. So what we all do get over it. You're not that fucking important. I know I'm not.

Bill (01:09:13.208)
Right. But so the reason I wrote that down and in the person that was talking about it you know did go back and say well I should have done this more or I wish I would have done this or I wish I would this would came to be sooner and this and that and the reason that I that I wrote it down as I first of all I knew what your answer is gonna be because I think we've talked about it before if nothing else you and I have talked about this before.

Mike (01:09:24.103)
Mmm.

Mike (01:09:31.719)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Bill (01:09:36.942)
we talked about this subject in a general sense that much I know for sure, but I thought it was worth repeating and sometimes I kind of bait you on these things because I think it's important to repeat them to people. I was going to say baited by a master. That's right, that's right. But no, seriously, I did know what your answer was going to be and I thought about it too.

Mike (01:09:40.359)
Uh-huh.

Mike (01:09:46.535)
Mm-hmm. I like to be baited.

That's right.

Mike (01:10:02.407)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:10:04.91)
I've been very open about the fact, and you were there. You saw every bit of how angry I was when I came in. So I could easily say that I wish I would have come in with more willingness and less anger, or I was so stubborn, I was literally to the point where I'm like, fuck all these people, I'll stay, but I'm not talking, I'm gonna cross my arms, and I'm not gonna say a fucking word. These people, you people, which I hate that phrase.

Mike (01:10:16.679)
Hmm.

Mike (01:10:24.135)
Mm-hmm.

Right. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Bill (01:10:32.754)
You people can talk all you want. I'm not saying a goddamn word. And guess what? Right.

Mike (01:10:34.887)
Right. Which is what we're told the fucking do take, take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth. You were doing the right thing and didn't even know it.

Bill (01:10:48.81)
Yeah, it's almost, I mean, not as extreme as Tony trying to, you know, work the steps, the best of his ability to prove him wrong. But, you know, I literally, I went in there with this obstinate stance of like, fuck you people, you know, I'll listen, but I ain't doing nothing. I'm not doing nothing. You know, I'm just, I'm not going to talk. I'm not going to share. Which this, my stubbornness literally saved my life, you know, and in the point of coming in angry like that.

Mike (01:10:52.487)
Mm. Right.

Mike (01:11:00.871)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:11:12.647)
Right.

Bill (01:11:16.902)
There was no other way for me at that point. I don't think that I could have been. So you ever watch the show? No, I know you haven't watched Yellowstone, but I'm sure you heard of it with, okay, Kevin Costner and whatever. So I started watching it because I had to watch one of the playoff games. It was only on Peacock. So I actually paid for a month and I started watching it. So I'll probably end up paying for that fucking thing forever now. But anyhow, so it's on there. And I started watching it. This just popped into my head. So it's...

Mike (01:11:18.919)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:11:25.607)
Nah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:11:46.274)
The short version, it's a family, they're on a ranch, they have horses, okay? And they get some of these wild horses. That's not the point of the show, but it's to make my point. Right, it's a cowboy soap opera is really what it is. I enjoy it, but it's a cowboy soap opera. So they have to break these horses come in and you can't ride them, they're bucking and they're doing all these different things, they gotta break them. And this horse doesn't know any fucking better. This horse has just been wherever, it's all fucked up.

Mike (01:11:53.415)
No, I think it is, but go ahead.

Mike (01:11:59.271)
Uh huh, right.

Mike (01:12:15.719)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:12:15.798)
and the horse is gonna learn, you know, but they're just gonna keep riding your ass until you learn, you know. So, and this literally just popped into my head. I'm like this fucking mean ass, fucking angry horse when I came in and they just fucking trained me, you know. They kept running me until I got too fucking tired to throw somebody off again, you know. And I wouldn't wanna change that because that's what I needed, you know. If I would have tried to, I can't think of, first of all, you know, the circumstance with our dad dying.

Mike (01:12:38.919)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:12:45.934)
Granted, you and I talked through this on here, that maybe at that moment, I can't think of anything else that would have brought me into this sobriety thing. Maybe at some point something else would have, but that moment and that event and the whole fact that I was all fucked up in my head and I'm angry and I don't wanna be here, I mean, that's what I needed to be there. I mean, I don't know what it would have taken. If somebody said you can't come in here until you...

Mike (01:12:56.871)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:13:14.918)
Settle down.

Mike (01:13:15.719)
That would have been one empty fucking place if that was the case right none of you guys could come in here until you settle down What?

Bill (01:13:21.822)
Yeah, I would have been like I.

Bill (01:13:28.414)
Settle down, calm down, you know, you need to be a better human being and not be so angry. Then you can walk in the door. No, come in here like some wild fucking animal and we are going to break you in the best way possible. I don't mean that in a negative way, you know, but they did. They broke down all of my walls. They broke down all of my fears. They broke down all of my, I don't know, whatever you want to call it. Anything that the...

Mike (01:13:33.159)
Ah.

Right. Nope.

Mike (01:13:40.871)
Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:13:54.29)
anything that might have been holding me back got broken in that in that Keating Center and probably that first those first few months. Now I still didn't get it, you know, I still walked around like a fucking fool for nine months until my friend Mike saved me. You know, with one simple word, yes. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. But you know what I mean? And so I again, I knew I knew for a fact, you know, exactly what you're going to say, but I thought it was worth repeating. But yeah, as far as

Mike (01:14:02.183)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:14:07.815)
Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah. It's this fucking simple. That's all it is. Yup.

Mike (01:14:22.183)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:14:23.33)
The words of wisdom was just my afterthought with that. And same thing, exactly what you, I don't remember exactly what you said, but those are perfect. I can't, I'm not gonna try to top it, you know?

Mike (01:14:26.599)
Uh-huh.

Mike (01:14:32.647)
Yeah, right. Yeah. We're all going to fuck up. We're going to continue to fuck up. Just keep walking through it, man. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to make mistakes. We're not going to do this thing. Right. Well, again, the only step we have to do perfectly is the first one. The rest of them, we're not going to do perfectly. It's okay. Just do them anyway. Yes. Get the results.

Mike (01:15:06.983)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:15:15.499)
Yeah, but

Mike (01:15:15.879)
Yeah.

Mike (01:15:22.279)
Right.

Bill (01:15:23.431)
But you know the same thing everything has worth now our worthlessness has worth right isn't that what we said?

Mike (01:15:28.135)
Yeah, right. Exactly. And even in sobriety, the mistakes we made and stuff, we can, you know, help somebody else. Yeah, you're making that. Hey, I made that mistake too. It's okay. Yeah, it was still sober. It's all right. You move along. Yes, it's fine. Yeah, no regrets. Of course not.

Bill (01:15:48.942)
Hahaha! Write that down everyone. Put that out of the t-shirt. Regrets are for suckers. So the next one in line here, and I don't, from Keep It Simple, but said the action said, today I'll go over my step one to remind myself that it's no accident that I'm an addict. So, I mean, we talk about that. We obviously go, you know, we, both of us do steps, like you say, one, two, three, before you even get out of bed.

Mike (01:15:53.031)
Great.

Hehehehehehe

Mike (01:16:06.663)
Mmm.

Mike (01:16:18.695)
Yep.

Bill (01:16:19.286)
But the reason I wrote that down is saying that, remind myself that it's no accident. I mean, do we, I was trying to think in my head when I wrote this down, do I think it's an accident that I am who I am? I mean, that was my question. Do you think it's an accident that you ended up where you are, or do you think it was, I don't know, I don't wanna say meant to be, but I don't know that it was an accident, or I've never looked at it that way.

Mike (01:16:31.399)
Mmm.

Mike (01:16:39.271)
Yeah.

No, no, of course not. That's verging on being a victim and fuck that. Um. Hehehehehe. Hehe

Bill (01:16:47.382)
That's, you know what, thank you. I couldn't figure out, I couldn't figure out why that bothered me. And even when I was reading it right now, I'm like, why the fuck did I write this down? Why did it bother me? Why did, but yeah, that's it. Yeah, I don't wanna be a victim. Fuck it.

Mike (01:16:56.039)
Yes. Yeah. It's verging on being a victim. Oh, it was an accident. Oh, something happened to me from outside that made me an addict or a drunk or of whatever now, I mean, I am. And yes. Um, uh, you know, we, we've talked about this before too, you know, were we born this way, is it hereditary, is it behavioral, is it doesn't fucking matter? Um, right. I am. I'm, I'm, I'm an alcoholic and I'm an addict. So, okay.

Then what? Yeah, an accident. Shut up.

Bill (01:17:30.806)
And seriously, until you just said that, I couldn't figure out why, as I was reading it, I'm like, why the fuck did I write this down? But then as I'm reading it, I'm like, why does that bother me? But yeah, you got that, thank you. See, once again, this is why Mike and I come together and talk about this shit, because I couldn't figure out that it was trying to make me say I was a victim. I ain't no fucking victim. Yeah, yeah, but even.

Mike (01:17:36.551)
Anyway...

Mm-hmm. Right.

Right.

Mike (01:17:50.823)
That's right. I have a disease. So what? And I, and thankfully I found the solution, the cure, the treatment.

Bill (01:17:59.542)
Right, but I mean, I agree 100% even. I agree that it's a disease, but even with that, I'm like, fuck it. It's, you know, when, that's even when people are like, well, it's, you know, it's a disease. I can't help myself. Well, it doesn't even matter that it's a disease. It is what it is. We are what we are. Yes, it's a disease and yes, we have to deal with it, but that's the whole point, you know? So, I don't know. But yeah, well, thank you. I know, I know fucking victim. Fuck you and your fucking victim shit.

Mike (01:18:16.903)
Uh-huh.

Sure, no problem. That's right. Mm-hmm. Hehe

Bill (01:18:29.27)
Let's let's hang on one second here. Okay, so One from the I read a lot of this shit down from these from these books I'm just trying to figure out there's a couple of these had done me fucking matter 24-hour book There was a series of questions Like have I admitted I'm an alcoholic like have I admitted I'm an alcoholic. Do I have any reservations about that? Etc and then this

Mike (01:18:51.751)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:18:54.462)
In quotes I have, am I absolutely honest with myself and with other people? Did we already talk about that? The honesty part.

Mike (01:19:01.639)
I mean, yeah, I think we have probably lots of different forms. Um, right. You know, and then there's the gratuitous honesty. Um, yeah, you know, clearly if I'm honest with myself about it, I again, have this disease, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, right. You know, but the gratuitous honesty is walking around going, I'm an alcoholic. I'm an alcoholic in every fucking situation. No, of course not. Yeah. That's, that's, that's.

Bill (01:19:05.29)
I think we're dead.

Bill (01:19:26.838)
Hehehehe

Mike (01:19:31.431)
I'm not gonna volunteer it to someone whose business it isn't.

Bill (01:19:50.13)
Right? Yeah, just the same thing when I read that. I'm like, some of these things as I write them down or as I'm reading them, I'm like, God, did we actually talk about that before? But no, I agree. I agree. Yeah, we don't need, not everyone needs to know. It's kind of like those insurance commercials about people getting older and becoming their parents. We don't have to say this shit to everyone. Not to everyone all the time, all the time. So.

Mike (01:20:04.679)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:20:09.479)
I'm not going to lie.

Mike (01:20:39.207)
Imagine that. Yeah, we act like we do. We really don't, but we act like it and that's enough. Yep.

Bill (01:20:46.412)
Right.

All right, and I got one more. So this was also from Keep It Simple. It said, help me find ways to stay a beginner in the program. And do you think that means that we need to stay a beginner? Or how do we stay a beginner? Where it says, help me find ways to stay a beginner in the program. What are your thoughts on that? And I guess what does that mean to you and I on coming up on almost 14 years?

Mike (01:20:52.423)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:21:00.455)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:21:18.823)
Right. Um, well, um, keeping an open mind, um, you know, yes, where we've got this thing down fairly well. There's no denying that. Um, I, you know, the tools are, are fairly sharp and polished up and, and we use them and that's good thing. Um, but yeah, I still have to keep an open mind. I still, I can't, I can't allow myself.

my ego to tell me that I've got this thing, because clearly I don't. I have on a daily basis, I have to work it. And so yes, keeping an open mind is really the big one for me and reminding myself that there's still more to learn with this thing. I'm not done growing, I'm not done evolving, I don't have it all down, I have a wonderful foundation, and that's okay.

to admit that and know that, but I'm not done yet. That's basically it. Yeah, I'm grateful I'm not a beginner. I'm grateful I'm not that fucked up 30 days into this. What the hell am I gonna do next? I kind of know what I'm gonna do next and that's a good thing. I know what to do next.

Bill (01:22:32.034)
Hehehehe

Mike (01:22:44.455)
But I also, again, have to be open to learning new things, reminding myself. I don't have this down completely. Um, the foundation is great, but there's, I still have to keep building on that foundation. Otherwise I become stagnant and, um, that's not a good thing either. So yeah, you know, um, I'm glad I'm not that, you know, two weeks into this thing, fucking twitching still.

Um, physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, twitching, the twitches are gone, but, uh, you know, I've not done building. That's all that means to me.

Bill (01:23:12.27)
Heheheheheheh

Bill (01:23:22.006)
Right. You know, it's funny is that like when I, when I told you after I got down to, you know, South Carolina after I literally been up for 24 hours and like I said, I mean, I, my, why the fuck did I, it's like I bet down either. I wasn't even tying my shoe. I don't know what the fuck I was doing, but picks up off the ground drops or whatever it was. And literally kind of lost my, like I said, my equal liver is all fucking off. And, and when I, when I walked into,

Mike (01:23:29.383)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:23:43.239)
right?

Bill (01:23:48.606)
I walked into a, there was a firehouse, a subs, which is one of my favorite places to go. And I had taken a drive down to see where the place was that I was staying and then came back up and was looking for a place and found it. And I walked in there and after I ordered, I was sitting down and it just, it occurred to me that I had this flashback in my mind from, you know, times when I would either be out late and then it's up early and I'm sitting someplace or whatever, because I, like I said,

Mike (01:23:58.919)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:24:17.654)
You get this, you're drinking coffee for 24 hours and you haven't slept, you know. I mean, it takes a little bit of a weirdness on your body and that I did, I felt like this, like I did back then, you know, and it was a, I felt a little bit better after I ate and not that I didn't eat anything on the way down, so I'd have, you know, a couple of things here and there, but that was like the first real food that I had had, but I ate a big dinner before I left. But.

Mike (01:24:21.831)
Mmm. Uh-huh.

Mike (01:24:32.551)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:24:43.719)
Uh-huh.

Bill (01:24:45.334)
you know, it just reminded me of again, you know, just how I felt back then. And then going to that meeting and the fact that, you know, I just thought about that when you had said that, you know, like two weeks in or whatever it was and walking into that meeting, and I suppose there could have been two different ways I could have looked at, you know, the fact that they announced it's like, oh yeah, this is a beginner's meeting. I could have been, ah, fuck me, you know? Or what my reaction was, I'm like, oh, that's cool.

Mike (01:25:08.807)
Mm. Right?

Mike (01:25:14.151)
Right.

Bill (01:25:14.574)
Because I've been to a beginners meeting in a long time. So I'm like, okay, this is fun. And then seeing some of these people that's, I got 21 days and as they're doing the count up, I got 47 days today and one person's like counting up and like, okay, yeah, it's day 72 today. And I'm like, fuck man, I just, I don't really remember that far back, but I do. I don't remember exactly what I felt like at day 72, but I know where I was.

Mike (01:25:20.711)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:25:28.647)
Hmm?

Mike (01:25:32.903)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (01:25:38.471)
Mm, sure.

Right. Yeah.

Bill (01:25:44.27)
And again, that, like you said, possibly the, you know, the feeling of, of loss and confusion and all those different things, but also, you know, some of the excitement, you know, and I saw both of those things, you know, people that were just, you know, drawn out. And then other people that were just like, the, the one chick she had, I think she said it was her, this was a nude meeting. And she said that was her fourth meeting that day, you know, and she was 21 days sober. She's like, I've been, I've been having a rough time. She's like, that's, I've just been going to meetings all day, you know? And I'm like, in my head, I'm like,

Mike (01:25:53.415)
Sure.

Mike (01:26:07.175)
Hehehehe... Yeah?

Bill (01:26:14.39)
wow, but good for you, you know? But yeah, you know, just kind of like, just keeping, like you said, neither one of us like the whole term or the idea of, oh, you got this man and this and that. No, you don't, no, you don't. But the other thing that I just thought about when you were talking was when I was in Florida, which was when I was down there for that three weeks with Courtney and Chris, and I think, God, I think that was now seven years ago.

Mike (01:26:15.655)
Right, exactly.

Mike (01:26:26.759)
Right. Mm. No.

Mike (01:26:43.591)
Sounds about right.

Bill (01:26:44.114)
I think, you know, so, you know, obviously almost split our sobriety in half, right? You know, so I was about seven years sober, six going on seven years sober at that time. And when I went down there, although I was, because Courtney and Chris, they knew I was sober, it was a safe environment. I had no, I did not feel uncomfortable with them, but I felt very compelled. I went to more meetings down there in that three week period than I would normally go to. But I did, I felt compelled to go to a meeting every day.

Mike (01:26:58.919)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:27:07.879)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Bill (01:27:12.798)
where that wasn't the same as this time. I wanted to go to a meeting, not because I, it's not that I'm saying I don't need to be because I could always use a meeting. I'm not stupid to think I can't, you know, but the difference in, and this just occurred to me as you were talking that when I was out of town before, I went, I was nice meeting people and going to new places, but I did, I felt compelled to do it. Whereas this way, I just, I wanted to go and I wanted to be part of, you know? And I don't know what that's called.

Mike (01:27:21.799)
Sure. Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:27:38.311)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:27:41.871)
Growth? I mean, I don't know.

Mike (01:27:42.823)
Right. Well, I think it's, you kind of use the words, man. It's the difference between needing a meeting and using a meeting. Yeah. You know, we kind of don't need meetings anymore, but we can certainly use one. Yeah.

Bill (01:27:58.938)
Right. And it just it does beatings. They especially at meeting new people and going to a new place like that. I have so much fun doing it. I would have gone on Sunday, but I was just and I bought eggs and I bought hash browns and it was, you know, fucking mid 80s. And I'm like, I'm sitting out on the balcony just fucking sitting in the sun. I'm like, I didn't take a fucking shower until because the game started at, what, three thirty, I think, or whatever it was or three. I don't think I.

Mike (01:28:06.279)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:28:12.455)
Yeah. Yep.

Mike (01:28:20.167)
Hehe

Mike (01:28:25.159)
Mm hmm. Something like that.

Bill (01:28:27.342)
I don't think I took a shower until like two, you know, which I haven't done that in a long time either. And I was doing nothing, you know, fucking nothing. And it was it was everything I wanted it to be. So even though I'm not a god guy, I could rest like God in the Lord. That's that's exactly what I was going to say. I saw I could pick apart what I need and leave the rest. OK.

Mike (01:28:29.319)
Nice.

Mike (01:28:33.831)
Yeah. It's all right. The Lord rested on Sunday too. You know, it's okay.

Mike (01:28:44.839)
Yes, exactly. Take, take what you can use and leave the rest.

Mike (01:28:53.575)
Yep. That's right. I've heard that somewhere before.

Bill (01:28:56.29)
Pick out the good parts. I did too. All right, so on that mile bashing of God, why don't we wrap this motherfucker up?

Mike (01:29:05.223)
All right. Well, you know what? We started off with Groundhog's Day and we talked about doing meetings in other places. The movie Groundhog Day, right? I was at one of my rare meetings out on the road. It was actually in Virginia, Northern Virginia. I remember that, in the Shenandoah Valley.

And, um, it was a real small meeting, but it was, I got to, I had to take a 36 hour rest because that was what I was on the road for a long time. And, um, so I went to this little tiny meeting, this little tiny town and I'm talking with this guy there and, um, I don't know how it came up, but we were talking about Groundhog's day. And he said that was his favorite recovery movie. And I was like, really? I'm looking at him. What the fuck you talking about?

Bill (01:29:31.254)
Yeah.

Mike (01:29:58.503)
But I've since watched it with that in mind. So if, you know, well, it's gonna be not Groundhog's Day when you hear this, but if you happen to watch it on Groundhog's Day, cause I know they're showing it on cable, bunch of different stations are showing it. If you happen to watch it, right? Bill Murray, right? Same thing over and over and over again. He's trying to control everything. He's trying to fix everything and nothing's fucking changing. And it doesn't get good and he doesn't get out of it.

Bill (01:30:07.63)
Hehehe

Mike (01:30:27.879)
until he starts working for other people.

Bill (01:30:31.502)
Right. You know, and now that you mentioned that, I don't remember it being tied into a meeting, but I think you've talked about that before, but you're right. And the funny part, I was actually, last night I thought about it, I'm like, I'm gonna, I had time, I was gonna watch it last night, and it was on none of the, and I've got what feels like a thousand streaming services, and it wasn't on fucking anything. So I'm like, yeah, fuck it. I could have bought it for like, I could have bought the movie for like 7.99.

Mike (01:30:32.327)
Fucking recovery, man.

Mike (01:30:39.975)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:30:46.535)
Mm hmm. Right.

Mike (01:30:52.359)
Uh-huh.

Mike (01:30:59.879)
Right.

Bill (01:31:00.214)
which I probably just should have, because it's not like I wouldn't watch it every year for the rest of my life, you know? Because I like it. But yeah, when you mention that, that is true. He keeps doing the same things over and over and selfish and self-centered and everything like that, so.

Mike (01:31:04.391)
Haha.

Mike (01:31:11.303)
Right. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. And it doesn't get, he doesn't get out of it until he fucking lets go and actually starts working for their betterment of everything. You know, his little society that he's in there and pucks a tawney Pennsylvania. And once he starts doing that, he gets the fuck out of it. Yep. And he gets the girl.

Bill (01:31:32.546)
Well, and stops, yeah, and he stops trying to take advantage of her too, and actually had fallen, you know, from the ranted comedy side of things, had actually fallen in love with her, you know, for who she was over that timeframe, and then just stopped trying to, yeah, take advantage of the situation, just, he actually let things flow. Imagine that. All right, so for all you motherfuckers out there that say we say nothing positive, there. Fuck y'all, that was positive.

Mike (01:31:36.903)
Right.

Mike (01:31:41.799)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (01:31:49.383)
Yep, exactly. Imagine that.

Mike (01:31:59.239)
Yeah!

Bill (01:32:02.482)
Yeah, yeah, that's really positive. We talked about love too. All right, man, do your thing.

Mike (01:32:07.591)
We did.

All right. Well, thank you everyone for listening to another episode of sober not mature As always be kind to each other be good to each other go out there and do something nice for somebody else this week And don't tell anybody you did it Now it is time kids It is that time it is time for you to fuck off Then keep fucking off keep fucking off till you get to a gate with a sign on it saying you cannot fuck off past here

Dream the impossible dream and keep fucking off forever.

Bill (01:32:47.391)
Got some volume there. Yes, and also, since our listenership is draining a little bit, for anyone who listens, same thing we always ask. Tell one person to listen or go on and give us a rating, give us a review or something like that. You don't have to buy any of our shit or donate any money. If you want to do all that, fine. But get somebody else to listen. If you are taking the time to listen to this podcast.

Mike (01:32:49.159)
Hehe

Yeah... Hmm... Hmm!

Bill (01:33:12.65)
Every single week you hear me talk about other podcasts all the time. Do the same thing. There's podcasts that I listen to that I get value out of. And I try to, I try to tell you folks out there the same thing. So do that for us. We're trying to, we're trying to build this thing just a little bit, just a little bit.

Mike (01:33:15.623)
Mm-hmm. Bye.

Mike (01:33:27.207)
Eh, right, share this nonsense with some friends of yours. Or somebody you hate. Say, here, listen to this. It'll fucking drive you crazy for an hour and a half.

Bill (01:33:31.218)
Yeah, you know. Yeah. Yeah, we said that before. You bet somebody. They'd make this their punishment. Yeah, well, we'll get the we'll get the statistic anyhow, so we don't give a fuck.

Mike (01:33:40.487)
Alright!

Mike (01:33:44.327)
That's right. Let us verbally spank your friends.

Bill (01:33:49.615)
Yeah, I like that. All right, man. I love you, brother. And yeah, we will talk soon. All righty, bye.

Mike (01:33:51.623)
Thank you.

Mike (01:33:55.271)
I love you too. We shall.