SoberNotMature - Episode 106 (Calm Snark When Dealing With Thorns)

Bill (00:01.55)
All right, everyone. Welcome once again to another episode of Sober, Not Mature. And yeah, we've got a lot to talk about tonight. So Mike and I, yeah, well, Mike and I got some news. It was not great news this week. And you know what I thought, and I'll leave it up to you, Mike, but I think tonight would probably be a good night to get this reading. I don't want to say the reading out of the way. I'm gonna set it again, but.

Mike (00:13.829)
Alright.

Mike (00:18.949)
Uh, no.

Bill (00:30.35)
What a perfect night to get some good thoughts rolled around in our head and maybe we can, yeah, I think so because it is, we got some bad news. We'll talk about it maybe if nothing else after the break, but get the reading done, get some other bullshit done, have some happy talk and then talk about our news. What do you think?

Mike (00:30.917)
Mm -hmm.

Before we get started with our garbage

Mike (00:51.269)
Right. Yeah. Sounds like a plan. Yeah. I got some good news too. So what the hell, man? You know, it's, it's life life on life's terms.

Bill (01:00.)
That it definitely is. And yeah, we're also, which by the time you guys are listening to this, you will have missed it, but I've been promoting it all week on Instagram. So even though you're going to miss us, we're doing a lead meeting tonight for the, it's part of the Dopey podcast. And again, was doing stuff on Instagram about it, but it's Dopey Zoom and they do a Zoom meeting every Friday night. It happens to be at 10 PM Eastern time, which is where Mike is. And in 9 PM, my time,

Mike (01:16.709)
Uh -huh.

Mike (01:24.389)
Uh huh.

Bill (01:29.518)
And then both of us get up early and now we're doing, you know, an hour and a half of this and then the podcast, but you know, what are, what are we willing to do? But the.

Mike (01:30.469)
Right.

Mike (01:38.559)
Yep, apparently, stay up late.

Bill (01:42.19)
But the thing of it is, even though again, by the time you guys are listening to it, you're going to miss ours. I don't know if they tape them or record them, but you know, support the Dopey podcast. They were nice enough to invite us on. So yeah, check them out. They're a big deal, far bigger than we are. So support them because they could use it and then maybe we could use some back. How's that? Ha ha.

Mike (01:52.197)
Right? Sure.

Mike (01:59.845)
Right. Yeah.

Mike (02:04.325)
Ha ha.

Bill (02:06.828)
Alright, so what do you what do you think? How about a reading or do you want to get your? You got good news you want to talk about now or do you want to do?

Mike (02:12.037)
Nah, we'll do the reading first. Let's again, like you said, man, let's roll some good thoughts around in our heads before we get into the nonsense. So, yeah, this was this week actually, there was one that jumped out at me. So I bookmarked it and here we go. February 28th. Man wants to know that his life somehow counted. Ernest Becker, he was a social anthropologist.

Bill (02:19.886)
Okay, cool.

Mike (02:41.189)
In recovery, we do service work. Service work should not be seen, should not just be seen as helping the still suffering addicts, though we were responsible whenever asked. Service work should include our families and our communities. We need to give back to them. Why? First, because we have a debt to repay. But more importantly, it isn't doing for others that we discover that our lives hold meaning.

By stepping outside of the self -centered core of our addiction, we find value again. During our using years, both our grandiosity and our own self -pity were symptoms of how little we valued ourselves, how little we felt our lives counted. We were bent on destroying ourselves. Remember that we have a basic human need to feel that our lives have meaning, that our lives make a difference to others. Service work is the shortest way

of knowing that we count. So should we get out there and make a difference? The world needs us. Prayer for the day. If self pity or grandiose behaviors start to develop in me, higher power, please give me service work to do. Help me see the needs of others and give me the power to satisfy those needs. Today's action. Apparently this is a bunch of friggin' actions.

Today I will look to be of service to others, whether those others are in recovery or not. I will work on developing an attitude and lifestyle of service.

Bill (04:21.55)
I like that. And I do remember that. And I mean, we've talked about the service work, I mean, forever, but two things came to mind outside of the reunion. I'll get back to the notes I made, but I know Marty at the Keating Center, you know, kept always told us, keep busy, get busy, get busy. And when I, after we got our year, I remember going to a meeting with my sponsor at that time, my sponsor Bill, the one who had passed away obviously after that, but.

Mike (04:49.891)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (04:50.616)
We're going to a meeting and he gave me the old, so, and he knew I hit my year, but he's like, so, you're sober now, huh? And I said, yeah. He's like, well, now it's time to get busy. And that's really, that was the entire conversation he had with me about turning a year sober. And that was a cool part because here's the thing. I mean, I don't know, I guess I'm a whore for compliments. I enjoy them.

Mike (04:56.101)
Mm -hmm.

Heheheheh

Bill (05:18.574)
you know, just like just probably as much as anyone else. But, you know, the whole point is that this humility that we were taught and and he was a big part of that, especially in my at that time in my early sobriety, he didn't like fall all over me about stuff. He didn't I don't know. He didn't coddle me. He just gave me and everyone around us, all the guys around us just this straightforward advice and simple things like, you know, OK, now it's time to get busy. No more excuses. Time to get busy.

Mike (05:39.877)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (05:43.941)
Right? Yeah. Yeah. The fog is cleared now. And you know what I like about it is, um, it's, we're always looking for a shortcut. We're always looking for the easier, softer way, right? You know, shooting angles, man, that's what we do. And, um, you know, anybody that wants to talk to me, um, I don't know why, but.

Bill (05:56.942)
Ha ha ha ha.

Mike (06:10.085)
You know, I will look at them and I'll say, look, man, we're looking for that shortcut. You want the shortcut, start doing stuff for others. You know, it's, it's the easiest, quickest way to start getting this thing. Um, you know, it takes you out of you. It, um, it, like it says, man, it, you said it humbles you it, um, and, and that's why we're here, man. It's, um, I remember when, um, when Brownie.

graduated at his service, right? It was big Catholic service. And, and the priest was up there and I mean, he was really hitting the service thing, you know, how, how he was such Ray was such an into service. That was such a big thing. And I mean, you know what he had 50 some years sober. And I mean, yeah, it was I'll always remember that, you know, that all that time and all everything he still

Bill (06:56.046)
Right.

Mike (07:07.717)
part of his program was being of service and it is, it is the quickest, easiest shortcut way to start getting this thing. And that's what we're looking for is that shortcut. And that's just it, man. Start doing things for others. And I mean, I've told the story, it's been a while since I've told it though, and I used to tell it in group all the time, you know, Marty made us house fathers, right? And I know neither one of us wanted it. We weren't clamoring, oh, Marty, please make us house fathers.

Bill (07:31.566)
Right.

Mike (07:35.365)
You know, we want the authority. No, it's fucking a man whose work, you know, but the story is, you know, the first time some dude came walking up to me after I was a house father and you know, he said, Hey man, I need some soap and I need, or I need some deodorant, you know, 35, 40 days sober. My first thought was fuck you. I don't care what you need because that's how I live my life. I fuck you. I don't care what you need. What about what I need? Motherfucker.

Bill (07:57.102)
Heheheheh

Mike (08:05.573)
But what I did was I went and got the guy some soap and my life got better because I didn't have to smell his stinky ass. And that's, that's the program in a nutshell, you know, doing shit for other people. And, and, and the more you take that action, the more you do it, you start getting the results of doing things for other people. And you know, like Bob always says, man, it's fucking AA math. It doesn't add up.

Bill (08:12.814)
Heheheheh

Mike (08:33.317)
How is me doing things for other people make my life better? Still don't understand it. Still doesn't make any fucking sense, but it works. So service, man. That's that's it, you know, and then the rest of the shit kind of comes along. If you keep doing that, all of a sudden you start actually giving a shit about other people. You start actually enjoying being part of that community and that society and.

And doing things for others feels good, which is what we're all fucking chasing anyway. So there you go. Go out. That's why I ended the episodes, man. Go do something for somebody else.

Bill (09:08.526)
Right.

Bill (09:14.382)
Right? Yeah. And again, you know, in the, in, in the beginning like that, you know, the, the cleaning that we were doing and setting up chairs and being, you know, going to meetings and having to, you know, put away chairs and do all those different things. And, uh, I mean, I didn't like doing any of that shit, you know, um, setting up for the. Yeah. I mean, well, setting up for the meetings at the Keating center, you know, when people are coming in from the outside or whatever, and, you know, all these different things that we did, or when Marty would send us out on, on a job, you know, and.

Mike (09:25.379)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (09:30.437)
Hell no. Still don't.

Bill (09:43.15)
Granted, we got some money for doing it, but I want to go help these, yeah, sometimes, you know, but I don't want to go help these fucking people, you know, but, you know, and then it was funny because I thought about it right when you were talking about it when, when I came back for the, the Clambake, well, that was October, right? Yeah, Clambake. And when we were all sitting in the room and, you know, Michelle and everyone, they're all telling everyone what to do. And then, you know, I said, what can I, what can I help with it? She's like, she's like, you want to work? I'm like, I thought I had to. I mean, it,

Mike (09:44.003)
Mm -hmm.

Sometimes. Right.

Right.

Mike (10:00.389)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (10:12.493)
Hehehehehe

Bill (10:13.902)
I mean, two things. I wouldn't have just sat there and done nothing. I would have found something to do, but I don't go to a Keating Center event. I expect to work. I just figure that, and not have to is not probably, well, I don't know. I feel obligated based on what was given to me. I feel obligated. Hell, plus on top of it, I like it. I enjoy it. So, you know, now at this point, I mean, both of us, I think we enjoy, that is cold as fuck. That day was weird. It was uncomfortable, but either way,

Mike (10:20.675)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (10:28.293)
Mm. Mm -hmm. Right?

Mike (10:34.885)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mike (10:41.957)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Bill (10:42.892)
You know, doing those things, we're helping other people and we're getting in front of people and we're doing good things. And, um, I mean, it's all for the good of the, you know, the alcoholic community and it's, it's fun, you know, enjoy it, but man, I sure as fuck didn't to begin with, you know, I mean, not at all, you know, at all, but what you said too, like in, in this talked about the reading talked about service work, not just for people in the community or in the, you know, the alcohol or AA community or sober community.

Mike (10:56.037)
Right.

Mike (11:07.395)
Mm -hmm.

Right? Mm hmm.

Bill (11:10.83)
but just anyone, you know? And that's the thing that I think that we, the collective, we misunderstand to begin with. I mean, helping the, I know you've got a neighbor that you help out every once in a while, that's service work. Helping out even a family member, helping a friend and not expecting anything in return. I don't know, picking up garbage, doing something, walking into a store and seeing something laying down and picking up, all those sort of things, they're minor acts of service, you know? Things that...

Mike (11:22.467)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Alright. Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Bill (11:37.902)
I know I didn't and we've talked about it enough. I don't think you did. I never thought fucking twice about doing that when I was drinking, you know, like you said, what's in it for me? But the one of the first lines in there was, you know, the something about his, he wanted to make sure that his life somehow counted, you know, and, you know, that's the other thing too. And we've talked about that before that, you know, that.

Mike (11:44.901)
Right, of course not. Yeah.

Mike (11:59.363)
Right.

Bill (12:04.142)
And it's kind of morbid when we talk about it, but I don't care. I mean, it is what it is. Death is what it is. And I'm not, both of us talked about it, not really being afraid of death. It's more so of what can we leave behind now? And not necessarily money and things, but what can we leave behind as far as an impression? What did we do? Are we considered to be less of a prick than we were now almost 14 years ago?

Mike (12:29.637)
Right?

Bill (12:30.606)
or God forbid, whatever day it is, whatever year it is that we kick it, we're not here anymore, what did we do in that timeframe? The good times, did it make up for or at least help to pad all the bad shit that we did? And hopefully a larger percentage of the good were remembered for than the bad shit we were. So yeah, I mean, I'd love to have my life count. I mean, like we said before, yes, we need money. We both like some nice things. We like some shit. We like to do some things.

Mike (12:56.677)
Bye.

Bill (12:59.47)
But really what it comes down to is, what are we gonna be remembered for? Which is, I never would have thought about that. Again, 15 years ago, I don't give a fuck what I remembered for. Never crossed my mind, never.

Mike (13:05.603)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (13:10.405)
Right. Right. Well, yeah. Well, because we didn't really want to think about that because we were who you remember for his fucking drunken assholes. Yeah, that that was it. There was nothing else, man. You know, especially at the end, there was nothing else. We were pure drunken assholes who maybe did something sort of nice once in a while. Yeah. But the.

Bill (13:21.39)
Right. Right.

Bill (13:38.094)
By accident.

Mike (13:40.357)
Yeah, right. Exactly. But, but the main impression was he's a fucking drunk asshole. Yeah. Right. No, and hopefully that's not going to be the case when we shuffle off this mortal coil.

Bill (13:47.406)
Yeah, yep.

Bill (13:53.454)
Right? Yeah. And the only other things I wrote down, I wrote back, you know, get back to everyone, which we were just talking about. You know, we find value, which I think is important. I'll step back to that in a minute. But, you know, life makes a difference to others. And that's, you know, exactly what we were talking about. You know, I don't, in these days, too, you know, we talk about the 10 step all the time and, you know, admitting when we were wrong and that sort of thing. And yes, it's OK for us to have, you know,

Mike (14:00.003)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (14:19.68)
a bad moment or a weird moment or be in a weird mood or whatever, but you know, I don't want to be, I don't want to be that guy that snaps at somebody. I don't want to be that guy that says weird or bad shit to somebody, whether it's in my head or not is, well, it's not irrelevant, but I was going to say it's irrelevant, but it's not. Um, but the

Mike (14:23.981)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (14:33.573)
Well...

Mike (14:38.757)
They, well, it's, it's irrelevant to them because they, they're not in there, you know? Yeah. And clearly we, we try to mitigate that a bit and not have it quite as prominent as it used to be, but yeah, it's going to be there. So, you know, whatever, don't beat ourselves up over what's going on in our heads, but yeah, that's the point. Don't let it out. Don't let it affect other people, you know, fucking a man act like you're, you're not all pissed off and whatever. Yeah. As much.

Bill (15:05.326)
Yeah, and it is you know, it's just that I but I care about that these days I don't I don't want to be I mean We joked about it last episode or the couple episodes ago about you know, every once in a while We're insured or doing something like that to be a prick. That's a different story You know than last than lashing out at somebody, you know, or you run across some complete fucking idiot And you like Jesus dude, you're a fucking idiot, you know I mean, I I don't do that these days. I think it you know

Mike (15:08.293)
Hehehehe

Mike (15:14.883)
Right.

Mike (15:22.085)
Mm. Yeah. Right.

Mike (15:30.403)
Right.

Bill (15:34.554)
Again, not all the time, but in you. I mean, all the driving and stuff that you do, all the idiots that you encounter, hundreds on a weekly basis. But I don't even think that you've, I don't think you flip people off very often. I know you don't roll down your window and start fucking screaming at people. So.

Mike (15:35.429)
Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Mike (15:41.613)
Oh no.

Mike (15:45.637)
daily.

You

Mike (15:52.995)
Hmm. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

Bill (16:00.494)
Really?

Bill (16:10.638)
Well, I was. Well, it just reminded me of when I was down in South Carolina, I went to the store. There was a Kroger grocery store and I went there a couple of different times to get some stuff and I was driving through the parking lot and I saw this guy walk out of the store and I wasn't speeding through the parking lot, but I was up towards, you know, like basically the main lane where you're driving next to the store, you know, the concrete and the walkway.

Mike (16:11.993)
Which I think pissed them off even more.

Mike (16:36.069)
Mm hmm. Right.

Bill (16:37.966)
And this, this old guy was walking out of, out of the, one of the doors at one of the, not the grocery store, but one of the other ones. And he's walking up and I mean, I had plenty of time to get there without having it. Had I stopped, I would have waited like two minutes for him to walk by and whatever. But I just kept driving and I, I mean, it was fucking nice. It was nice out that day. So I have windows down sun roof, sun roof open, my music's on, not playing, not playing super loud, but on. And I hear him like, you stupid little motherfucker. And I'm just like,

Mike (16:52.357)
Hehehehe.

Bill (17:05.966)
I literally just went back down the aisle just to cruise by him. Not to say anything to him, just to cruise by him. I'm like, I don't need to be that guy today because I didn't hit him. I didn't even almost hit him. I did see him. It was just one of those things where he thought that I should have stopped and waited to two minutes rather than literally driving by him as he was getting up to like literally where the driveway area was. Parking lot, wow, can't think of the word parking lot.

Mike (17:13.097)
Right.

Mike (17:19.557)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (17:24.675)
Duh -hah.

Mike (17:32.229)
Yeah, right.

Bill (17:35.374)
And I was driving by right as he would have stepped off the curb. That's it. So I'm like, hey, you fucker.

Mike (17:43.365)
Yeah, well, you know, had the children of the greatest generation, the most entitled bastards in the world. What are you going to do?

Bill (17:49.198)
Yeah, yeah, but again, you know, but you know that then the second thing I thought about again what I thought about just you know, kind of doing the slow cruise by him I'm like man these days this this old motherfucker has no idea who he's talking to and I don't mean me, you know He could be talking to some sort of I mean literally some sort of fucking maniac that slams on his brakes gets out and fucking pops his ass, you know, and in drives away and I'm like, that's

Mike (18:05.317)
Right. Yeah, right, right.

Mike (18:12.229)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah, yeah. Beat them to death with a fucking tire. You know, not that I've had thoughts like that or anything.

Bill (18:19.406)
Yeah. Thoughts are not necessarily illegal. Yeah, the only thing is when if you do it then it's premeditated, but then again, how can premeditated, how do you even prove all that, you know? Unless you wrote it down, don't write it down. So also when, so when, when, when,

Mike (18:26.949)
No actions are.

Mike (18:35.843)
Mmm.

Well, it's on a podcast, so goddamn it.

Bill (18:46.286)
It just reminded me of another thing when Dawn and I got together. So you're talking, I mean, this now 25 years ago. You know, so I mean, both of us clearly a hell of a lot younger than we are now and had more spunk to us. And she did. She was just a spunky motherfucker. I mean, it still is. But I mean, in her younger years, it was just a little little far more wild than she is now. And, you know, she and I would be driving someplace. And, you know, again, somebody would cut me off or do whatever. And I mean, I don't really care much. And, you know, the windows are down or she rolls down a window.

Mike (19:03.597)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (19:07.461)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (19:15.79)
you motherfucker and she's flipping off people arm out the window. I'm like, what the fuck are you doing? She's like, well that guy I'm like, you know what? What if he has a gun? But again, tie your iron. I'm like, I don't want to die today. I'm like, yeah, I'm like, I suppose when you're driving, I said, I would highly recommend that you don't do it. You know, but I said, when you're by yourself, but when you're in the car with me, I'm like, don't do that ever. But.

Mike (19:17.955)
Hehehehehe

Uh -huh.

Mike (19:26.243)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (19:30.501)
Yeah, right. It's not worth it.

Mike (19:40.677)
Right. Right.

Bill (19:44.492)
I don't know, seriously, you just don't know. People are fucking nuts and yeah, people are fucking nuts.

Mike (19:49.509)
Yeah. And you know what? And I've gotten to the point in my life and a large part of it is thanks to this program. But again, I've raised, I've used a million times burning calories, man. I don't have the time or the energy to waste on morons anymore. Either way. Yes. Maybe it'll make me feel better for a second, but you know, a lot of things that make me feel better for a second that aren't good for me. So I think I'll just pass.

Bill (20:15.854)
Right? Yeah, I mean, well, shit, social media, Instagram, and it's still, I mean, in a good way, it baffles me that I'm surprised that we don't get, you know, anymore, that we don't get more people get mouthy to us, you know, and because I do, I mean, I read all the comments and things like that. I breeze them over, whatever. And, you know, just every once in a while, you know, somebody will say some shit and I mean, I'll have.

Mike (20:19.365)
You

Mmm.

Mike (20:28.515)
Hehehehehe

Uh -huh.

Bill (20:41.07)
I'll start typing in something like, ah, fuck it. Then I erase it and I block the person. I'm like, fuck them, I'm done. I just don't have, same thing. But I've done it before if I got a couple of minutes. I said something mildly sarcastic, never like, listen motherfucker, but I'll do something completely snarky back at them, but calm, calmly, smarty, calmly, snarky.

Mike (20:44.965)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (20:53.601)
hahahahah

Mike (20:59.491)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (21:05.285)
Snarky.

Bill (21:08.75)
But even that sometimes I'm like, ah, fuck me. I got more important things to do than the deal with some, who knows who this motherfucker is, you know, and where he is or what he's thinking. And, you know, he's being, you know, what do they call them? The Internet tough guys or keyboard, keyboard warriors, keyboards, something. Didn't you say, what did you say one time? There, there you go. A keyboard cowboy. I knew it was something with a keyboard. Yeah, some badass behind a fucking screen or sitting there on his goddamn fucking iPhone.

Mike (21:17.349)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (21:25.637)
Yeah, keyboard cowboys.

Mike (21:34.595)
Uh -huh.

Right, in his mom's basement.

Bill (21:40.078)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And his mom's basement, you know, talking shit to me, but yeah, I don't give a fuck. But anyhow, so back to back to service work. I'm I'm all about it. I mean, that that reading was wonderful. And it is it's the the main thing that and you had just mentioned that, you know, the things that we were told and kind of what this reading, you know, talked about is just that, you know, doing all these things actually gives us worth that doesn't have a dollar value on it, you know, and it's it's wonderful.

Mike (21:46.565)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (22:09.317)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (22:09.484)
you know, to have that, because I wrote that, you know, finding value. We find value and people find value in us and we find value in that work that we do. And it doesn't take much. It doesn't, well, it doesn't hardly take any effort at all to help somebody like that. You know, done.

Mike (22:23.557)
Right. Yeah. And again, yeah, for worthless pieces of shit that we are. Um, yes, it gives us some self -worth and yet that's it. You know, that's how we get self -worth is by being worthwhile to other people.

Bill (22:29.39)
Hahaha!

Bill (22:39.246)
Right. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's again, AA math and all those good things, but, um, you know, it's one of the things that, and I don't have the, I was just going to say, I don't have the opportunity, which is, which is not true. I just, I don't do a lot of service work these days, but, um, I mean, I, if nothing else, I kind of lean back on this, this whole thing we're doing and like, Hey, you know, we got a podcast and, uh, we're, we're talking, we're talking recovery and.

Mike (23:04.069)
Right? Yeah? Yup.

Bill (23:08.718)
I post a reading every morning, that's helping some people. I mean, it's true, but you know what I mean. I think about that when, just thought about like at the end of the lead, in a typical AA lead, at the end, a lot of times people say, okay, and what do I do today? And what I used to always say, I said it every time I led for a long time, is just I'd say, okay, so what do I do today? Not enough, I just don't. And it didn't matter how active I was, what I was doing.

Mike (23:12.581)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Right. Right.

Mike (23:19.331)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (23:35.429)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (23:38.402)
far more than I'm doing today and my answer will always be not enough because I can't, I don't think I can ever do enough to give back and we've talked about that to give back about again what's been so freely given to us right.

Mike (23:42.053)
Right. Yeah.

Mike (23:51.685)
Mm -hmm. Absolutely. Right. Yeah. We're never going to do enough. And you know, again, can't fall into that trap and be triggered by that either. You know, I'm not doing enough. So fuck it. Yeah. Right. No, no, you're doing what you're what you can. And yes, you could do more, but don't put yourself up over it. You're doing something. As long as you're doing something, you're okay.

Bill (23:59.694)
Hahaha!

Bill (24:10.446)
Right? Yeah, well, then same thing. You know, we always have to keep moving forward. It's that it's the escalator thing again, you know, walking up a down escalator. If we stop, we're going to go backwards. We have to, or, you know, I go back to that same thing, that dude that led at the, Kitty Men's the one that I think he used to always, he'd run back and forth on the stage and he's like, either I'm going, you know, towards a drink or away from a drink. And he's running back and forth on the stage. And I'm like,

That's again, these visual things. I say it all the time, but I really am. I'm a visual person. If I can picture it, well, if I can picture it, it helps me remember it, retain it, and relate to it. It's really what it comes down to. But hey, just in case, just so everyone knows, Kylie's actually home this weekend. She went out with a friend of hers. So we have four dogs in the house tonight. And that is Katniss and Tugger right now, I think, that are barking for some god.

Mike (24:42.147)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (24:51.525)
Mm -hmm. Right. Yeah.

Mike (25:03.373)
Hehehehehe

Bill (25:08.344)
ungodly reason, but I think Kathy might have went to get pizzas or something, but who knows. But yeah, so once again, people, you know it. You know what happens. The dogs, they are, they are what they are. There they are. There they are. So what else? What else with the reading? I mean, I think we caught everything on that, right?

Mike (25:13.125)
Yeah, nice.

Mike (25:19.525)
Hey, there they are. Right. Just like a Pink Floyd album. It's great. Yep.

Mike (25:29.861)
I believe we've covered that one. Yep.

Bill (25:31.502)
We've serviced that one to death as they say, right?

Mike (25:36.261)
That's right.

Bill (25:38.126)
So, I mean, this is a thing I heard about this week. You obviously, you heard that Richard Lewis passed away, didn't you? Okay, so I completely forgot until somebody posted it. I forgot that he was sober. And I think if I read it correctly, he might have been, because it was an article from like two years ago or something, because I pulled it up once, because I didn't know how long. And they said at that point he was coming up on,

Mike (25:46.275)
Yeah.

Mike (26:03.811)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (26:05.658)
27 years and that was August of August of 21 so it would have been so he would have been like 29 years silver so which again I completely forgot about that because that was the other thing I planned on doing is I'm sure at least I hope that Mark Mark Barron does something I think he said Richard Lewis on there has any I'm guessing

Mike (26:08.229)
Right.

Mike (26:13.989)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (26:28.677)
I would imagine so, you know, I actually, I haven't, I haven't even looked to see if he did that. It's been, it's been one of those weeks. Haven't really been, uh, had a lot of time to do podcasts, but yeah. Yeah. You know, I have my handy dandy phone right here. Yep. He did. Yep. Yeah. He posted it on Wednesday. Yeah. Richard Lewis from 2011. Yeah.

Bill (26:30.286)
Yeah, I mean.

Bill (26:45.422)
Oh did he already? Okay good good good.

Bill (26:52.686)
Okay, cool. Yeah, because it was, what's it was a Monday or Tuesday, I think I heard it on the radio.

Mike (26:59.269)
I actually, um, I follow, uh, Jamie Lee Curtis, you know, another one of us, uh, on Facebook. Right. Yeah. And, uh, well, they did a sitcom together in the, I think late nineties it was. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, she actually, she in one of her posts, she's, um, said he was one of the main reasons that she got sober. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, that was the, I mean, I hadn't heard anything. It was like pretty much.

Bill (27:02.286)
Oh. Right.

Bill (27:08.942)
Really?

Bill (27:19.054)
Really? Hmm.

Mike (27:27.013)
right after it was announced, she posted something and I went, oh shit. Yeah, I always liked him. And yes, I also knew if I, you know, clearly we're older, you know, watching Letterman in the like the mid eighties, you know, he would come out there and he was clearly wired out of his fucking head. You know, I mean, to the point of, you know, snorting and swallowing and I mean,

Bill (27:48.014)
Heheheheh

Mike (27:54.437)
I could fucking taste the drain watching him. Um, it was one of the reasons I liked them so much because I like relate to them then. And then I related to him later. Um, but yeah, but yeah, absolutely. You know, I, I always dug him and I knew that he was sober for a long time and I knew that he helped a lot of people and yeah, you know, um, 76, eh, you know, I mean, I,

Bill (27:56.46)
Hahaha!

Hehehe.

Bill (28:04.75)
Heheheheh

Mike (28:19.909)
You saw pictures of him in the last couple of years and he looked like he was fucking 93. So, you know, um, not hugely shocking, but still a drag, but he graduated and that's always a good thing.

Bill (28:31.95)
Yeah, and that's what we always talk about. It's a different type of thing when someone dies tragically or outside or for different reasons or all those sort of things. But when sober people pass away, and again, when I heard it, I didn't realize that he was that old. And I don't remember last time I saw him. But I mean, last time I saw him, I do remember now that he looked old -ish. But...

Mike (28:46.691)
Mm.

Bill (28:59.072)
76 is not young, but I mean these days not necessarily it's not decrepit. You know, it's not 86, you know, I mean it's a huge that 10 years at that point. The difference between 76 and 86 is fucking huge, you know. But yeah, just I again, I completely forgot that he was sober and I couldn't remember how long and 29 years. That's my my dad was when when he passed away because that's the other thing that popped into my head, you know, so but yeah, it's a good dude. He was funny. I mean, his.

Mike (28:59.845)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Mike (29:06.469)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (29:10.789)
Right.

Bill (29:28.462)
this whole neurotic type of kick and all that stuff and whether it was all true or a little bit of a bit, I mean, he was still, he was fun, so.

Mike (29:37.859)
Mm -hmm. And he helped a lot of people. Mm, service work.

Bill (29:40.462)
Yeah, and that's, yeah, and I, yeah, wrapping that up. And I wasn't even thinking about that when I, when I brought it up, but it was just one of the notes I had coming down there. But yeah, that, that fits into, fits into our reading nicely. But one more thing before we, before we do the break here. And I didn't actually text you or make a note on Facebook this year, but it was, I don't know if it was last week or the week before the 24 hour book where the cipher thing came up. Okay. So I, I want to.

Mike (30:06.767)
I was kind of disappointed that you didn't acknowledge Cypherboy Day.

Bill (30:10.958)
Yeah, the only reason I did them like that this year I want to talk about it because I I think it's in because he I it I don't know like well Let me just read it off for everyone. So from from the 24 -hour book there's a there's a statement in there every year and Mike clearly has talked about you know, the fact that he's an atheist and every year and literally for the last You know, probably almost 14 years every year this comes around. I either sent him a text or post something on Facebook

Mike (30:17.965)
Ah

Mike (30:24.133)
Okay.

Bill (30:39.662)
call them cipher boy because in the 24 -hour book it says, it has been said that atheism is blind faith in a strange proposition that this universe originated in a cipher and aimlessly rushes nowhere. That's practically impossible to believe. Those are, that's word for word from the 24 -hour book. And I wanted to read that off because in the reason I say it is because I think you do a really good.

Mike (30:57.829)
Uh huh. Yeah, it is.

Bill (31:08.91)
You explain how you feel and with your, I was gonna say your atheism, like it's a disease. You explain your vision, you explain your position very well. And that's why I wanted to bring it up on here. It's more than just, you know, hey, what's up, Cypher boy? You know, just, I thought something that I think people might be able to get benefit from it. So over to you, Mike.

Mike (31:16.389)
Hmm? Heheheheh. Well.

Mike (31:26.955)
Hehehehehe

Mike (31:33.765)
Right. Why? Thanks, Bill. Right. Yes. The strange notion that the universe was created in a cipher, which is basically a vacuum of nothingness and it rushes nowhere. It's not all that strange to me. It's pretty much what I believe in. Yes, there are forces.

talked about it plenty of times, man. My first inkling into being able to grasp the program and have a power greater than myself was love. That is a force. That is, at the time, my granddaughter was two years old and she would look at me with those big blue eyes and there was no goddamn reason in the world that she should love me other than she did. That is a power.

Bill (32:28.046)
Hehehe

Mike (32:31.129)
greater than me. Um, you know, I've built on it and it grows and whatever changes and, um, you know, the, the, the program of alcoholics, anonymous is a power greater than myself. The fellowship is a power greater than myself. Um, I can apply lots and lots of things. I have lots of powers greater than myself, but as far as some magical intelligence that runs the universe, that's nonsense to me.

Um, and I just, I don't believe in it. It doesn't make sense to me. Um, clearly there's no evidence of it. Um, if you believe, if you believe that that's great. If that helps you along the way and makes you a better person. Cool. Um, I don't care one way or another. I'm just telling you where I stand, where I stand is there is no magical intelligence running anything in my mind. Um, there are forces that are greater than me, positive forces that make.

Bill (33:08.142)
Hehehehe

Mike (33:30.437)
a better person and that's all I need to have. But yes, so I am a pure atheist. I do not believe that there is magical anything. You know, the simple, quick way that I explain it to people is I don't believe that there's anything metaphysical. I don't believe that there's anything supernatural. Physical and natural are pretty fucking amazing to me and it's enough for me. And now I'm done.

Bill (33:58.222)
No, and I mean, I just, it's, it was funny because I know, I know exactly when you explained that to me. And that wasn't, it wasn't that long ago because to begin with, there were, there were a number of years when you didn't necessarily go into that explanation, whether or not you were building that as you went along or whatever, but we were at dinner. And I remember this specifically for it's your 50th birthday. So seven years ago and.

Mike (34:18.243)
All right.

Bill (34:25.462)
I made some sort of crack about your atheism or whatever. You're like, no, listen, this is what I believe and how I believe it. You explained it that way. And I was like, God damn, I've only known you for seven fucking years and you've never explained that to me. But yeah, or whatever it was, six years at that time. But still, I'm amazed, not amazed by, it interests me and I enjoy hearing that because I can't put...

Mike (34:25.605)
Ah, okay.

Mike (34:33.877)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mike (34:42.693)
Mmm.

Bill (34:54.51)
for me, I'm literally middle of the road. I don't need to go to a building with a steeple or anything like that, at least not upstairs. We talked about that. I go downstairs where all the drunks and the junkies are, but I don't go to church. I don't believe in mainstream religion. I don't do all that stuff. Now, is it because I wasn't raised that way? I don't know. We had friends in Cleveland that were, I mean, I talks, you know, like it's almost like the real alcoholic. These guys, these people were real Catholics, you know, and.

Mike (35:05.861)
Right?

Bill (35:24.044)
You know, went to church, we did the whole thing and I just didn't, I never understood it. I never got it. I could never, I could never grasp all of it. And it never really had this overwhelming power or meaning to me. And maybe if it has nothing to do, I'm not saying if I would have been raised differently, but maybe in a different circumstance, it would have got a different exposure, whatever it had a different belief or a feeling. I don't know. Funniest thing in the world. And we've talked about Bill Burr every once in a while. One of his specials that I wish I could find it.

Mike (35:26.469)
Right?

Mike (35:39.781)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (35:52.909)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (35:53.518)
He's talking about religion to the fact that he's just kind of backed away from, you know, the Catholic religion and that sort of thing. Said really didn't have a reason why blah, blah, blah, but it just, you know, kind of backed away. It didn't really mean that much to him. But then he starts talking about it. He goes, but I don't care. People do what they have. He goes, except for those fucking Scientologists. And he goes on this whole thing. And then the one thing he said to us kind of funny was, isn't their leader, his name is like Greg or something like that or whatever. I don't know. Whatever is.

Mike (36:15.757)
Hehehehehe

Bill (36:22.392)
Let's just say it's Greg. And he goes, yeah. What is it? Oh, is it Ron? OK, so it's Ron. OK. But whatever. OK, so. Oh, his name is El Ron.

Mike (36:23.973)
Scientologist, that's L Ron Hubbard.

Mike (36:31.395)
L Ron Hubbard L Ron. Yes.

Mike (36:40.421)
Well, yeah, the initial L Ron Hubbard. Remember I lived in Hollywood. I'm right here, man. Where are you?

Bill (36:40.75)
Are you there?

Okay, okay, kind of like J. Michael, gotcha.

No, that's cool. But so what whatever he said, you know, so he said that and then that he's talking about all this different stuff. But then, you know, he made a good point. He goes, he goes, why he goes, why do I think that that is so ridiculous? He goes, because this and that whatever. And he goes, he goes, I've taught to believe that there's some guy in the sky, you know, that does this and does that. And it's magical and all the stuff. And it just made me laugh. You know, as he explained it, it was just based on he was explaining it as in.

Mike (36:50.117)
Sure.

Bill (37:17.07)
This is what I was exposed to, so this is what I believe. And it just made a lot of sense to me. It was funny, but anyhow, so I like the way that you explain it. It made me understand where you were coming from, certainly a lot more. And then for me, like I said, I'm just, I'm middle of the road, man. I do think there's something out there, whether it's a force, whether it's a being, whatever it is. I don't know what's out there, but I think there is something, but it's just not, I'm just not into the whole full religion type of thing. So, you know.

Mike (37:47.845)
Mm -hmm. Right. Yeah. All right. Hi there. I'm talking to myself now. While Bill goes and checks on the dogs. Yes. Atheism and.

Bill (37:48.718)
But these dogs are going nuts. Talk to yourself for a minute, okay, hang on.

Bill (38:07.022)
I just yelled on the stairs.

Mike (38:12.197)
Okay. All right. Well, I was going to say, but I kind of wanted you. Yeah. I just kind of wanted you to hear it too. I mean, um, I started off Catholic. Um, I was born again, Christian when I was about 11. Um, I went to church on my own, uh, in high school for like three years of high school. Um, you know, I, I believed in the stuff.

Bill (38:12.814)
Yeah, I just yelled down the stairs.

Mike (38:35.781)
It's been a slow process for me to realize that, um, none of it works for me. None of it makes sense for me. And, um, yeah, you know, it's been, uh, you know, I'm half Jewish and, um, I, you know, and again, Bits and pieces, um, kind of like the program, you know, I take what I can use and leave the rest behind. I've told the story. Um, you know, I think the first time I went to, who do you know? I remember is so it was my second week sober.

And the guys up there giving his lead and he early in his lead, he busts out a Bible quote. And I like, ah, shit. Cause it was early on and I was, I knew what was going to happen in the meetings and I wasn't sure how I was going to deal with it. Um, and I went, okay, here we go. Bible quote and whatever it was, I don't remember what it was, but I do remember listening to it and going, well, that makes sense. Um,

Bill (39:32.942)
Hahaha!

Mike (39:34.309)
You know and and ever and every time I lead um, you know I always throw in that I'm an atheist because I think it's important that people sitting out there who are struggling with the God concept of the higher power part of the program Need to know that it can work without that because I am proof of that and But when I have that part in my lead, I always say I always quote the Bible

Faith without works is dead because that one works for me, very much so. Believing something without action is bullshit. Faith without works is dead. Yeah, so there you go. So don't think I don't know, don't think I've always been, don't think I've always, I listened to too much heavy metal music when I was younger and whatever, just because I have the Hail Satan sticker on my car.

Bill (40:15.63)
Right? Right.

Bill (40:27.406)
Hahaha!

Mike (40:31.589)
And I have a, I fuck for Satan t -shirt. That's all bullshit too in my mind. So.

Bill (40:34.254)
Yeah, and you know that like we're talking about again last week or the week before is that You know, first of all, we've said it plenty of times It doesn't matter what people believe in it doesn't matter what what people what gets people here What keeps them sober all those different things just as long as they're you know Making their lives better and making the lives of other people better not hurting people, you know, but on top of this this

Mike (40:50.069)
Nope.

Bill (40:59.854)
This recovery thing, especially even if you narrow it down to AA only, because all these people, everyone, well, not everyone, a lot of people think it's a God thing. Like we said, the straight up mainstream American thing, God thing, it's not everywhere. And AA wouldn't work everywhere, and recovery probably wouldn't work everywhere, because everyone needs help, a community, and most people, most of these groups, and these programs, and these fellowships.

You know, have some sort of thing that they've been a pray to God, but they have some sort of the people believe in this higher power thing, you know. So I don't know what just to each his own, I guess is the easiest way to say it, but it just and I do the same thing. I think I always tell people that I'm agnostic, you know, because I don't care. I don't care what people think. I mean, I believe there's something there, but this the shit works for me. I do not have to go to church in order for this thing to work.

And if you want to go to church and make this a God thing along with what you're doing, cool, that's fine. You you do what you do, man. Just don't make me do your thing and I'm not going to make you do my thing. It's fine. We're both on the same path. Yeah. So yeah. Right. You know what? And I almost wasn't going to say anything, but I think we still have a delay. I do. I just, I think we're delaying a little bit too.

Mike (42:06.585)
Absolutely. Yep, absolutely. God bless America.

Mike (42:15.119)
Hahaha!

Mike (42:21.285)
Yeah, we do.

Bill (42:22.254)
Which is just fucking weird. I don't know where it's coming from, but I don't know. Because again, I reset, I know you always reset your modem and something fucking weird's going on in the interweb worlds. But yeah, it gets a little bit annoying because I can tell usually because we're talking and then I hear you laugh like two, three seconds after I said something. Or like when I was trying to, I was muting to go yell at the dogs for a second. Just all I did was open the door and yell downstairs, knock it off.

Mike (42:32.133)
Yup. Uh -huh.

Mike (42:44.323)
Hehehehehe

Bill (42:51.662)
And they did. But yeah, I could hear you pause a little bit later, but anyhow. So on that note, what do you think? I think we're about that, Mark. We stalled enough. Let's take a break and then we can get into our news, right?

Mike (43:04.035)
Oh yeah.

Mike (43:09.605)
Absolutely. All right. Well, stay tuned for the news right after this word from our sponsor.

Bill (43:23.936)
All right, everyone, welcome back. And yeah, I think we've got like a three second delay, if I'm not mistaken, because when I said that, there was like a three second pause for you. But I don't know. Hey, fucking people, you get to deal with this shit. I don't know what the fuck it is. So still there? All right. All right. I was going to suggest resetting again, but fucking people are going to have to just deal with it. We'll have to deal with it too. It just, you know what, hey.

Mike (43:41.349)
Me neither. Yeah, right here, man.

Bill (43:51.63)
Let's pretend this is the 1970s and you're on location and I ask you a question and then you sit there with your finger on your ear, take a second to think, and then you start responding to me. So we're gonna pretend like this is old time TV and it takes a while for that feed to get in. So that's what we're doing now.

Mike (43:56.933)
Hmm.

Mike (44:03.493)
Hehehehehe

Mike (44:13.175)
All right. Does it, does my finger have to be in my ear? Can it be somewhere else?

Bill (44:17.39)
Yes, you can place your finger wherever you'd like to place your finger. How's that?

Bill (44:24.334)
All right, so Yeah, so we got some we got some bad news this week and like you're you're the one that got the news and obviously shared it with me So, I don't know. Why don't you kick it off? I mean, I think we got some things to talk about, right?

Mike (44:40.741)
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, still don't really know exactly what happened, but, um, a friend of ours, um, from pretty much the get -go, um, decided that he didn't want to be here anymore and, uh, took himself out and it, uh, pretty much shocked everybody. Um, I found out I was actually at my home group and I was there early cause I opened up this week and, uh, another guy shows up there and hangs out and we were talking and, um,

He had been at a meeting earlier in the week and someone had said, you know, pray for this guy and his family. Um, and you know, uh, some meetings ask if anyone has any prayers, special intentions. Um, and apparently that, uh, that he said his name and I'm like, that can't be that, that's just, that can't be. And so I, um, I called his number and went straight to voicemail and, um,

Bill (45:22.574)
Ha ha.

Mike (45:38.981)
Then I went on Facebook and there was nothing. And then, so I reached out some mutual friends and, um, yeah, got, I got an answer back, uh, within five minutes or so that, yeah, that's what happened. Uh, it was, um, apparently last Saturday, um, 17th and, um, gaps. That's, that's all I know. Um, I'm, I don't know. I,

Assume he was still sober. I don't see that he picked up. I think he just picked up. I don't even know how he did it or, you know, certainly don't know why he did it, but he did it. And like I said, he was somebody that had been around since we got sober and he was, you know, part of the support group and part of the solid guys that were around. And it's just a fucking shame, man.

You know, I wish I wish she would have used the tools that we were given in this program to solve whatever problem that he had. Because, um, you know, uh, my favorite Jerry stall is a writer. Um, he's, uh, actually his friends with Mark Maron. Um, uh, if you want to read a really good book about addiction, permanent midnight, it was made into a movie, uh, starring Ben Stiller movies. Okay.

Bill (47:01.324)
Oh.

Mike (47:02.949)
book is really good. Um, and, um, but anyway, Jerry Stahl, long time member of the program and, um, he, you know, he's got the greatest quote on suicide, um, that I've ever heard. And it is, um, yes, suicide is always an option. Unfortunately, the blood spatters on the living, um, which, you know, and actually I, I,

When I talked to Chris Sunday night, my girlfriend, um, and told her cause she knew them too. Uh, the gentlemen were talking about, um, and she said, uh, she had another really good quote on the subject. It was, um, it doesn't take our pain away. It just, um, it gives it to somebody else. And, um, yeah, fuck that man. You know, and I know bill you've had a lot of it in your life. Um,

you know, close family members who have done it. Um, I've had people in my life that have done it too. Um, and that's it, man. It doesn't take their pain away. It just gives it to fucking somebody that's still here. So, um, you know, if you're thinking about it and if, you know, you think it's an option, um, it's not man, you know, use the tools that are so freely given to us to that we've used to solve other problems.

solve whatever that problem is to using the same tools because they work for all of them.

Bill (48:30.606)
Right? Yeah. And, uh, and in this gentleman that, um, that we're talking about, we've actually, um, referenced him, talked about him a lot, you know, in this, in, well, now, now we've, now we're officially two years on this thing, but, um, his name has been brought up a lot because, uh, like Mike said, I mean, he, he was part of, um, part of our sober lives, you know, literally from, from the beginning.

Mike (48:44.453)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (48:58.405)
Right.

Bill (48:58.702)
Cause he was, was he two years ahead of us, three years or four years, or was it?

Mike (49:03.813)
Yeah, something like that. Yeah. Two, three, four. Yeah. Somewhere in there. Yeah.

Bill (49:07.726)
Okay. And I obviously knew we had more time than us, but I couldn't remember how many years ahead. But yeah, so from the start. And the thing of it is, so when, because Mike texted me right away and you texted me the O bit and you're like, yeah, I just found out and I looked and I mean, I'm looking at my phone and I'm like, it didn't even fucking register right away because it's...

Mike (49:17.763)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (49:26.275)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (49:31.789)
Right.

Bill (49:32.846)
once again, you know, you started off with explaining, you know, one of these guys, one of these salad guys, one of our, one of the people we've looked up to, one of the people, you know, that has been around us and all that, you know, that stuff. And I was just like, what the fuck, man? And then it wasn't even that, I mean, you like, you're like, I don't know why and I don't know how and all that stuff. And in my head, so, cause I had told Kathy that too, cause she had, I think taking the dogs for a walk or whatever. And I was standing outside and I told her, cause she knew she had met him. And I said, and she's like, well, you know, I said,

Mike (49:56.965)
Mm -hmm.

Sure.

Bill (50:01.974)
I don't know any details except for I said well because you just brought up about whether you start drinking or not you know or whether you picked up or did whatever and and my first thought was well first of all I was I was I was shocked it it bummed me out but I was also angry you know but on top of that too and what I thought was I'm like okay so worst case scenario I think even if he wasn't drinking we we know that he wasn't doing what he should be doing because I don't think

Mike (50:19.715)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (50:29.774)
If us people are doing what we're supposed to be doing, that we get to that point without reaching out to somebody, you know, which is a shame. And I mean, granted, I mean, all of us, I mean, I know anyone who knew him and cared for him and loved him and was around him would love to have that opportunity to know, you know, the what was it, why, you know, and why didn't he reach out? Why didn't he use the tools? And, you know, what...

Mike (50:36.869)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (50:52.101)
Right.

Bill (50:55.95)
what wasn't he doing that got him to that point. And I'm not saying this isn't like years ago when I'm wondering like, I don't want to do these things. I know what I have to do every day, you know, hopefully to keep myself sober, number one, relatively sane, or at least if I start to get, you know, wigged out on something, I do, I have the people, I have the tools. And I think I know what to do, you know, to get help when I need it, you know? But, but shit, I mean, it just, I,

Mike (51:09.957)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (51:22.437)
Right. Yeah.

Bill (51:26.126)
I was just going to say, I don't get it, but I mean, I suppose we're, if it's some sort, it seems to me, and I don't know, God, I don't even want to speculate, but it just feels like people not doing what they do, you know, even if they're sober to get to that point where that's the option, you know what I mean? It just, I don't know. It's, I don't know.

Mike (51:46.181)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Right. I mean, you know, the best case scenario is, you know, he was sick. I mean, which is to me. Look, kids, you want to really get serious. If I get something real fucking bad, you know, your dog is really fucking sick and their quality of life is really fucking awful. What do you do? You put them down.

Bill (51:47.694)
But.

Mike (52:14.989)
You know something I get to that point that's going to happen now I'm not going to go hide somewhere and not let anybody know I'm going to bring everybody in and say look this is what's gonna happen because you know clearly um My quality of life is awful and and that's just you know again This atheist doesn't think that fucking human lives are so much better than a dog or a cat I think we're pretty much the same And and I don't want to suffer You know

So anyway, so I don't know, maybe best case scenario, he was sick and he just, you know, I don't know. Nobody knows any details, which really sucks. That's best case scenario. You know, he was sick and you know, the Robin Williams thing, you know, he had this thing and then he said, fuck it, I can't live like this anymore. Take yourself out. And that's kind of okay. But again, doing it secretively and surprising.

Bill (53:08.174)
Right.

Mike (53:11.429)
people that you love with that is shitty. Um, I think you need to include everyone, you know, make them part of it. Um, you know, yeah, but I don't know, you know, I don't know if it was psychological. I don't know. You know, again, we don't know if he picked up. We don't know, don't know anything. All we know for sure is he couldn't be here anymore and he took himself out and it sucks. But like you said, first off straight.

Bill (53:36.686)
Right. Yeah. And the.

Mike (53:39.941)
You know, there's no bad examples.

Bill (53:43.086)
Right. Yeah. And that's what I said. Two things. I'm like, there's no bad examples in wealth. I guess we have something to talk about on Friday, which is, and I didn't mean that in, you know, trying to be funny or anything like that, because, you know, seriously, it's just these. And here's the thing. And I hope everyone, everyone understands or whether you do, you don't. I'm going to say this with just I don't give a fuck if everyone understands why we why we do or choose to talk about, you know, certain things or why we choose not to talk about other things.

Mike (53:51.895)
Right.

Bill (54:10.702)
It's our own choice, but certain things like this, like Mike just mentioned family members and people we've had that are close and things like that. We don't talk about those situations because there's other people involved in those situations and it's not just about us. It's not just about we're involving people basically without their permission. Now, this guy we're talking about, granted, he's got family and stuff too. Well, two things, we've not mentioned his name yet, although it's been mentioned on here before.

Mike (54:27.173)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Bill (54:39.662)
But on top of that too, I mean, this was, he was, he was as close to family to us as, you know, as it could have been, you know, part of our sober family and, and that sort of thing. But the other thing too is that, um, I don't know for, for Mike and I to have this conversation, I think it's, it's something that's needed. You know, this is part of, I don't know how we heal. It's a weird way to put it, but it, it kind of is, you know, it's part of how we deal with this shit is to get it out. And like I said, to begin with, I was fucking angry. I was just.

Mike (54:41.733)
Mmm.

Mike (55:04.099)
Mm.

Bill (55:07.982)
I was stewing about the whole goddamn thing. And I knew that, and I know that I knew and I know that by the end of this conversation, I'm gonna feel a little bit better. It's not gonna make the situation better. It's not gonna make them come back. But you just put a different spin on that. Maybe he was, maybe he was out of his fucking mind. It was a mental thing, who knows? Okay, so that's uncontrollable. Maybe he was sick and maybe he should have let somebody know, but maybe he took that way out. Again, it is what it is. But, you know.

Mike (55:10.693)
Oh yeah.

Yeah, me too.

Mike (55:30.755)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (55:38.35)
Whatever the situation is, it happens and it does. It sucks. He was such a good dude and a big part of our lives. But here's the other reason that we, mentioning the mentor thing and not mentor really, but somebody we looked up to. I looked up the thing in the 24 hour book about the putting people on a pedestal and things like that. Let me find it real quick. Here we are. I want to read this because this is something that...

Mike (56:01.611)
Yep.

Bill (56:06.862)
It's from July 23rd. And I think that, so we read this for the first time really early in sobriety. And I know that both Mike and I have fallen back on this when we do get somebody that, you know, that we've looked up to. So I just want to read it real quick. It said, we should remember that all AA's, just put all people in recovery, have clay feet. We should not set any member upon a pedestal and make her or him out as a perfect.

member of recovery. It's not fair to the person to be singled out in this fashion, and if the person is wise, she or he will not wish it. If the person we single out as the ideal recovery person has a fall, we are in danger of falling too. Without exception, we are all only one drink away from a drunk, no matter how long we have been sober. Nobody is entirely safe. The group itself should be our ideal, not any particular member of it, okay?

So that has helped me through a lot of things, even with a family member, a particular family member. It's helped me with people that you've had two sponsors that have not necessarily died, but that went out while they were sponsoring you. We've had people that we look up to and respect and we're sober sometimes long before, sometimes just a little bit ahead of us that have taken that fall. And that's.

Mike (57:08.229)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (57:15.013)
Right?

Mike (57:21.573)
Mm -hmm. Right. Yep.

Bill (57:33.134)
For anyone out there, if you're newly sober, that's a problem for some people. They're like, okay, so this dude out here, whoever this dude is, let's say Robbie, okay? So Robbie's out there, Robbie's been sober for 15 years, Robbie's been sober for 20 years, he's got all these guys he's sponsoring, all these people, or it's Susie, doesn't matter, this person. And everyone looks up to this person, then this person gets drunk, this person kills themselves, whatever the deal is.

The problem is if we idolize her again, put that person up on that pedestal, we look at that and we're like, well, if she couldn't do it or if he couldn't do it, how in the world can I do it? Which is fucking wrong, you know? And it's just not, it's not true, you know? And this guy, God, he did a lot for us. He was a friend. I mean, we saw him at meetings. I remember I led for him. The last time I led it, who do you know? He's the one that asked me.

Mike (58:17.443)
Mm -hmm, absolutely.

Bill (58:32.974)
And that was, I think that was the one where Darrell's son, Derek was there and I ended up talking about his dad and didn't know his son was in the room. And I didn't say anything bad about him, but you know, but yeah, our friend again, this gentleman that just passed away, he called me out of whim and he's like, hey, he saw me on Facebook. He goes, you're gonna be in Cleveland this week for Founders Day, right? And I said, yep. And he goes, I'm chairing and I need a lead. Can you do it? I'm like, yep.

Mike (58:43.109)
Right?

Mike (58:47.045)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (59:02.574)
And I think I and I think I led because I drove in that I that day I don't think I even I got to Cleveland at like six o 'clock You know, so I didn't I I led it like I think I'd led in a Harley shirt, you know And I apologize when you know when I walked up there and I had you know a couple of the probably the Bob's and the you know a couple of people in the back looked at me a little bit funny but I'm like, you know what hey, this is what I just drove, you know drove eight hours and you know got here when I when I could get here and try to do what I got to do, but I

Mike (59:04.805)
Hehehehehe

Mike (59:13.925)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (59:18.053)
Hehehehehe

Bill (59:30.542)
I don't know, he was a big part of our lives and a big part of our sobriety is really what it comes down to. And it sucks and it's sad, you know, is really what it comes down to, right? You know?

Mike (59:35.877)
He was.

Mike (59:41.157)
Yeah, it is. But you know, I mean, like when I was telling the story, man, you know, um, yeah, that, that reading that you did out of the 24 hour book, absolutely. I, I, you know, I use that too. And like I said, he, whatever reason wasn't using the tools and wasn't working the program to its fullest for whatever reason. Like I said, man, you know, um,

If that's if it comes down and that's what you got to do you fucking you got you can't do anything alone anything Practice these principles in all our affairs if it's time for you to take yourself out You need to fucking include some other people. We can't do anything by ourselves Yeah, you know, so yeah not We can't put him on a pedestal Whatever the thing is he didn't include others and he did

something wrong and it sucks and I wish he wouldn't have because he was a really good guy. And like you said, man, I fucking loved them a lot. But, um, yeah, you know, fallible, no human power, man. And he was definitely human power just as we all are.

Bill (01:00:57.326)
Yeah, and it's just, you know, and that's a thing. You know, it goes back to what I just thought about, because I heard somebody say it on, I don't know, probably on a fucking podcast again, you know, the, oh, if I, if all the shit I went through, if I can do this, anyone can, no, you fucking, no, I hate that. I hate that phrase so much, you know, because it's just, it's just not true, you know, and, you know, when you take a, I don't know, maybe this is an example, maybe it's not, but the whole point is,

I mean, yes, all of us can have the same tools and it's my opinion and I think yours too. Let's go back to the recipe thing. If every single one of us takes that box, the cake box or box of cake recipe and follows it to a T, we're gonna get a fairly decent edible cake. It's going to be at least something that can be presentable and happy is not gonna kill us, right? But if we're going all,

fucking willy -nilly and you know doing whatever and you know leaving out the eggs and not mixing this up the right way and you know not reading the directions then your shit's not going to turn out right okay every single one of us has the ability yes okay but not everyone can do this thing clearly not everyone stays sober because the problem is is that even though everyone could do it maybe physically have the ability to do it you know you got to do the work.

Mike (01:01:51.397)
Right.

Bill (01:02:18.158)
Every single fucking day, every time shit comes up, if things go bad, you gotta talk to somebody. You know, so I mean, I hear it so often, it's almost like a cliche buzz phrase in, mainly in the AA rooms, but I just hear it a lot. Man, if I could do this with all I've been through, anyone can. Fuck you. Anytime I hear it, I just wanna tell the person, no, go fuck yourself. Quit telling these people that, you know? At least put the thing in there.

Mike (01:02:40.781)
Hehehehehe

Bill (01:02:47.982)
If I can do it and if you do the amount of work that I did and put the amount of dedication in and put the amount of blood sweat and tears as I do every day or did, because what do we do? I mean, you don't think what you do right now every day is hard, do you? I mean, every single day now, Mike, do you?

Mike (01:03:04.005)
No, absolutely not. No, no, no, it's routine, it's habit, it's a way of life. It's, yeah, no, it's not difficult. It's not always, I don't, honestly, I don't always like, you know, yay, I get to fucking do my 10th step at the end of the day, you know, but I do it, you know, because it's just what I do. And if, again, take the action and just do the shit that we're supposed to do, we get the results. Yeah, I'm not always.

Bill (01:03:17.326)
hahahaha

Mike (01:03:33.519)
completely thrilled that it's not always, but it is routine and it is habit and it is what I do. So yeah, you know, it's certainly a hell of a lot of user that was, you know, 13 years ago. That's for damn sure.

Bill (01:03:47.886)
Right. I mean, I always use the analogy, two of them, you know, I mean, not everyone flies a plane. So I've used the analogy of a plane taking off, but let's let's go merging on getting, getting onto a freeway. You know, it takes a lot of gas, a lot of power and a lot of, you sometimes if there's a lot of traffic out there, you got to really pay attention and put some, put some work quote unquote into getting on the freeway, right. Getting into an area where you're in your middle lane, wherever you are going at a certain speed. And at that point, not that you have to take, you can't take your

hand off the wheel, you can't just fucking look away and put your feet up, you know, but at that point you can, you can ease back a little bit in your driving, right? Everything's cool, you're still watching out because I think the driving thing's a decent enough analogy because you still gotta watch out for motherfuckers and the motherfuckers on the highway that cut you off or pull in front of you or the, you know, the pothole or the thing in the road or whatever it is, you know, that's like in life having life happen, you know? We still gotta watch out for life potholes and life.

Mike (01:04:34.597)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:04:46.286)
numbnuts and everything else. But the hardest work we do is getting onto that freeway. You know, once you get onto it, if you're if you're doing it right, you're paying attention and you do that work every day. That's why that's why I ask that question. I mean, I know that every day there's a certain amount of time I plan my day. And I've said this before, I find out whatever it is, what time do I have to leave to be there or what time do I have to be there? If I got to be someplace at nine o 'clock and it takes me 30 minutes to be there.

I know I need to leave the house 45 minutes early because I always want to, I'm not an arrive on time type of guy. And then from there, I back it off to a certain amount of time that I know I need to take my shower and shave, which doesn't take that much, but it's my readings and it's my prayers. Yeah, I go on Instagram and whatever, but I plan my day backwards and I always fill in the time. And if it comes back to, I get to get up at some ridiculous hour, I'm like, fuck. But I'm not cutting anything out. It's got to get done, you know?

Mike (01:05:43.073)
Right.

Bill (01:05:44.27)
So, but I'm, I mean, I'm committed to doing the work because I know what it's gonna do for me. It's gonna keep me alive and it's, you know, like we talked about in the beginning, it's gonna make hopefully me be a decent person today, at least better than I was yesterday or the day before, or sure as fuck better than I was 15 years ago. So, yeah.

After all that, thank you, right. Now, sometimes it's like, what more could you say after all that? You're like, no, right, yeah, I agree, I agree. But I don't know, I mean, there's probably not a lot more to say about our friend except for the fact that fuck, he's gonna be missed and shit. Like you said, I wish he would have reached out or I wish he would have made a better choice or if nothing else, I wish he would have included people.

Mike (01:06:09.903)
Great.

Mike (01:06:18.029)
Yep, yep, that's it.

Bill (01:06:34.158)
know, because if he would have came to a group of us and said, hey, this is what I'm going to do, I would have been like, are you fucking kidding me? But you know, hey, you know, if maybe there's a back maybe there's a backstory and a back reason and whatever. And I don't know that I would have would have been like, hey, hey, rock on, buddy. Sounds like a great idea. See you later or see you never. I don't know. Whatever. Whatever you believe in, maybe see you never or see you later. But I don't know. I just don't know. There's no there's not a right answer. But.

Mike (01:06:41.733)
Mm -hmm.

Right?

Mike (01:06:55.269)
You're right.

Bill (01:07:03.15)
That just is what it is. Right?

Mike (01:07:07.299)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, you know it comes down to it's a really fucking selfish act and Bottom line is I don't want to be fucking selfish like that anymore. So I won't

Bill (01:07:08.622)
You

Bill (01:07:18.222)
Right? Yeah, and we've talked about that before too, is just that, you know, we've mentioned it at the beginning of this podcast. I mean, I'm not, I said it before, I'm not afraid to die. You know, I think I have a life right now that I could be proud of and I think people around me could be proud of me for, you know, but I, if I die right now, when,

You know, whenever I die, there's only a couple of things that I want, you know, and they're controllable by me. I want to be sober and I want to continue to be, I want to have lived a life that the people around me can at least be proud of, you know, that's it, two things, you know, and I have complete control over both of those. I can't change people's opinions, but I can live a life for somebody to be proud of if they choose not to fuck up, you know, but, you know, I can be sober.

Mike (01:07:46.821)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:08:13.614)
you know, and I could do the things I have to do to try to be that person. So, you know, when that does happen, then I don't leave a, leave a scar on, you know, the, the people around me. So.

Right?

Mike (01:08:25.893)
Absolutely. Yep. Yep. That's it. That is it.

Bill (01:08:29.134)
Alright, so anything else more on that? I mean, I think we, I just don't even know what else to say except for what we've said, so.

Mike (01:08:37.349)
Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. We'll miss you and goddamn it.

Bill (01:08:41.198)
Yeah, exactly. So, um, you said you had some good news. Let's, uh, let's let's brighten this fucking goddamn dark black hole up with some good news.

Mike (01:08:48.131)
Yeah!

Mike (01:08:52.357)
Hehehe.

Right. Well, I mean, it's, it's nothing huge. It's, it's, um, it's really not, um, the company I work for, um, the, the offices are around the east side of town. I live on the west side of town. Um, and the offices and the property that they're on are not the best. And, uh, they, you know, they've said that, I mean, half the fleet is parked, um, over at one of the rail yards. It's a few miles away. It's just not real cool. Anyway.

So they finally got a place that's going to accommodate the entire fleet. We'll be able to park some trailers there. It's just going to be much better. The office will be able to be open 24 hours. So we'll be able to get in there and do shit if we need to, you know, make a couple of fucking cup of coffee or heat up a burrito or something. That's all stuff that we can't do here in Cleveland. We haven't been able to. But the cool thing is,

Okay, so this is all good. It's actually going to be in a month. The April 1st will be the first day that we're fully there. But the very cool thing is, it is exactly 1 .2 miles from my house.

Bill (01:10:07.79)
And how long does it take you to get there now?

Mike (01:10:10.565)
So, I mean...

Mike (01:10:15.621)
I mean, and 20, 25 minutes, depending on the traffic and stuff, it's, you know, it's the other side of town. It's not bad. You know, it's, it's not horrible, whatever, you know, I mean, it's under a half an hour for sure. For me to drive over there. And then when I get done with work, drive home, it's under a half an hour. Um, you know, unless there's like a wreck on the freeway or something, um, that's all wiped out. And actually when the, uh, the weather's a little nicer, I can fucking walk to work.

Bill (01:10:42.958)
hahahaha

Mike (01:10:44.709)
I mean, it's literally, it's, you know, it's going to be like a 15 minute walk. It's, it's like a three minute drive. So yeah, it's right around the corner. Yep. So I'm pretty fucking happy about that.

Bill (01:10:50.254)
Wow. Wow.

Bill (01:10:54.35)
Oh, that's crazy.

But, well, but like you said, I mean, it sounds like it'll be not only, well, yeah, not only a nicer facility, but, you know, things like that, like you said, that having, being able to have the office open, if you, you know, for, because I mean, there's trucks going in and out of these, these places now, I know for a fact, you know, so, you know, somebody comes in at, you know, probably two, three in the morning and, you know, the residents sitting there in a dark parking lot, they could actually walk in and just go use the restroom if they needed to, right?

Mike (01:11:17.763)
Thanks.

Mike (01:11:25.765)
Right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So it's going to be cool. It's going to be nice.

Bill (01:11:27.342)
Yeah. So you.

Bill (01:11:32.27)
Well, that is nice because I mean, anything like that, you know, having I don't know, granted, your workspace is is basically, you know, behind the wheel every every day and all day. But, you know, to have a place like that, that actually is just a nicer, a nicer, you know, building facility and nothing else, a safer lot to be in, it sounds like it's going to be there, too. Right.

Mike (01:11:45.881)
Yeah.

Mike (01:11:55.333)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it's right the fuck around the corner from my house.

Bill (01:12:00.846)
Yeah, and that's yeah from the selfish side of things that's right around the corner You know what the the only time that I worked that close You know to where I lived was actually that that last place that that I worked Before I got sober or so, you know, it's that's that's the one where I could I could actually come home and you know drink during my lunch hour So I don't have to worry about that these days

Mike (01:12:09.695)
Yup.

Mike (01:12:24.517)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:12:28.078)
But yeah, so I mean, I've got I think I got one or one or two more things on here. Is that you're cool on that part of it? I mean, I think that's great, especially the one point two miles from your house. I think it's wonderful. So.

Mike (01:12:39.877)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, it is. Yeah. I'm, I'm just, I'm happy. Feel bad for the guys that live over on the East side, but you know, I've been doing it for five years. So.

Bill (01:12:43.278)
Right. You know, we got to figure out this is.

Bill (01:12:50.584)
Well, yeah, I mean, somebody's got to take the drive, so fuck them. Yeah, it's their turn now, right?

Mike (01:12:58.827)
Absolutely.

Bill (01:13:00.782)
So, you know, we got to figure out in this, nothing I had written down, but so we got to figure out our anniversary weekend at some point, doesn't have to be figured out now. But I think that's going to be that last week of April if I'm looking at the calendar, right? And then we got to figure out, are we definitely, are you definitely looking at doing that retreat? And then I know we're doing Founders Day, but are you definitely looking at doing the retreat at the end of May?

Mike (01:13:28.389)
Uh, I am actually not, um, we are going to Myrtle beach the first week of June. So, um, yeah, I'm going to be gone from the first through the fifth. So I'm not going to be able to do the retreat. Just not going to happen.

Bill (01:13:40.846)
Oh, okay.

Okay. And you know what, actually that, that wouldn't be a bad thing. I was kind of looking at them like, yeah, we kind of halfway committed, but I may not either because, uh, I know founders day and I was trying to figure out stuff with work. I mean, I'm, we, we get vacation time and this and that, but I'm still, I'm still going to be new ish and what I'm doing. Cause I'm trying to figure out if, um, I may even, well, you and I can talk about it and figure out timing and stuff, but, um, I'm just going to be, it's going to be tough for me. I don't want to take it too many days off if I don't have to is the main point kind of coming up to it. So.

But yeah, okay.

Mike (01:14:13.957)
Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, you're trying to be a fucking responsible citizen.

Bill (01:14:19.822)
Well, you know what? I mean, on top of that, too, that yes, but I also I'm there. There's such an opportunity for me to make money and I've got I've got some catching up to do so. I'm also trying to do what whatever I can to to keep everything, you know, kind of these these first these first few months are going to be critical to kind of build this whole I don't know, you kind of build a whole base of stuff in there and it's going to be critical stuff. So try to look at it. Yeah. Be responsible.

Mike (01:14:48.197)
Oh, so you're building a foundation. I've never heard of that before.

Bill (01:14:50.062)
Yeah, and it is. Yeah, this whole thing. Yeah, it literally it is. It's it's building. It is building a definitely building a foundation. So but yeah. So, OK, so we just got to figure out mainly Founders Day. We know we'll figure that out. Then our anniversary weekend, we got to get a hold of Michael and see if he wants to think we're talking about doing the whole casino thing. So that should be fun. So right.

This I'm telling you there there is there's literally like a three second delay This is what did what to figure this out? You know, it'll be it or I just Yeah, I don't even I don't even know what's crazy I'm gonna have to try to figure out You know if again if it's if it's on my end or your end We'll have to figure out some way to test this and it's crazy, you know two weeks in a row there There's some I don't think it's I don't

Mike (01:15:14.821)
Cool. Yeah!

Mike (01:15:24.037)
closer to four or five.

Bill (01:15:39.382)
It can't be a riverside thing. I think it's it's one of us I just don't know which one it is, but we'll have to check this out. So because it is it irritating is

Mike (01:15:46.501)
I don't know. I mean, we started off okay. It seems like it's getting worse. Oh, it's fucking awful, man. It's irritating as hell.

Bill (01:15:50.542)
Right, which.

I know, I know, I know. But anyhow, so I think I have, I've got just, I don't know, one or two maybe little quick things that we can chit chat about real quick, but oh fuck, we got like an hour and 15 minutes and we gotta be on the Zoom thing. Okay, so let's, which one do I wanna talk about? Oh, I know this guy, this is just a completely kind of like a fucked up thing, just the other day, so, and I've talked about before waking up.

Mike (01:16:10.853)
Uh -huh.

Bill (01:16:21.39)
and or just being in a good mood on certain days and I start to like question myself, which is stupid, you know, if I'm in a good mood, which I try really hard not to do. And that's something that literally we solved. I don't want to say solve, but we talked about it here. And, you we kind of talked through it and changed my whole outlook on it where I don't I don't question it. But just it was Monday or Tuesday, whatever day it was, probably on Tuesday, Wednesday, it doesn't matter. But I woke up, I woke up the other day and like like felt.

wonderful. I mean like physically wonderful, you know, and it wasn't like being in a good mood. Like I'm wondering where my mood came from, but I'm sitting there. I'm like, why do I physically feel good today? What did I do yesterday? What did I eat? Did I go to bed at a certain time? So I'm like trying to figure out this formula because I don't know about why I think I know about you because we talked about it. I wake up in the morning and sometimes just like a rollover in my

fucking knees hurt, my back hurts. I mean, we're everyone out there, you know, we're both in our in our fucking mid 50s, you know, and just, you know, shit, shit's getting old. And sometimes waking up is not the easiest. It's fine. But I'm like, I'm like an old Buick these days, you know, I'm going to start every day. I'm going to start up, it's gonna take me a minute to warm up and get running, you know. But I woke up and I'm like, damn, I'm like, I'm in a good mood. And you know, nothing hurts. And literally, I had gone to bed at

Mike (01:17:31.621)
Hehehehehe

Mike (01:17:39.429)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:17:43.822)
I don't know, I went to bed at like 20 after 10 or something like that, so it wasn't like really early. This and that, I ate the same thing I did the other day and I'm like, I wonder how I feel the next day. That was fucking beat up and tired, I had a headache in the morning, I'm like, what the fuck? Nothing changed, what the fuck? Why do I physically feel good one day? Like different than normal, like noticeably better, and then the other day I'm just like the same old shit, I don't get it. This has nothing to do with sobriety, but I just thought about it, it just reminded me of.

being in a good mood versus a bad mood and I don't fucking get it, you know?

Bill (01:18:20.174)
God, there's a, yeah, there's a.

Mike (01:18:20.581)
Yeah, well, yeah, just enjoy it while it lasts man, because I can't remember the last fucking day.

Bill (01:18:25.71)
Right, right. So yeah, so that was just that was just a little thing on that. So I'm gonna do one more one more like a reading from or a thing from one of the one of the books and then I think we're gonna be fucking done because yeah, this this delay is just fucking crazy. Just crazy, right? Um,

Mike (01:18:47.045)
It keeps getting worse and worse.

Bill (01:18:48.236)
I know, it actually does. Okay, so this is from the reading one day at a time. Do I sometimes cherish bad feelings so that I can feel sorry for myself? Okay, I'll read that again. Do I ever sometimes cherish bad feelings so that I can feel sorry for myself? And I wrote it down because I think I know what our answers are gonna be, but anyhow, what do you think?

Mike (01:19:16.485)
Ah, yes of course, goddamn right. But not as much as I used to and I recognize it and I also know that it's counterproductive and yes of course I wanna wallow in my own shit. I was comfortable in my own shit for years and years and years. Yes, I wanna be a victim. I want you all to feel sorry for me. Oh, pour me, pour me, pour me another drink.

Bill (01:19:44.686)
Hahaha.

Mike (01:19:46.053)
Yeah, I know it's dangerous and stupid and I don't allow myself to stay there for very long. But yes, of course it's attractive and of course it was the way I lived my life for a long, long time. So yes, it's easy and comfortable to slip back into it, but it's not good for me. So I don't stay there very long anymore.

Bill (01:20:08.302)
Right. Yeah, that's kind of the same thing. And I mean, the whole point is, I everyone has the, I want to say the right, but everyone gets in a bad mood or has bad moments or things like that. There's nothing wrong with it. It happens, you know, but I think it's so dangerous for us to wallow in something like that because, you know, then we get to that point where, you know, we feel bad, then we feel worse, and then we wallow, and then all these different things, and then...

You know, you're the one that always says that I know exactly what you know, what can make me feel better. And that's a dangerous part. But yeah, I mean, sometimes, you know, being in a bad mood and, you know, kind of feeling sorry for ourselves and, you know, getting the poor me's or the why me's or that's or like you said, you know, poor me, poor me. And yeah, that's what it leads to. But I don't know, it just it threw me it threw me a little bit there that came from a recovery book, but not so much because that's some of the things that I like about the books. They're they're kind of.

I don't know. They're weird statements, but they do. They make you think a little bit. There's nothing wrong with that, you know. So yeah, I just thought that might be a, just be an interesting thing if nothing else to talk about for a minute. So there.

Mike (01:21:17.861)
Right. Right. And, and, and you said, it's kind of strange coming from a recovery book. No, cause we that's again, we're not unique. We're not special. We're not different. We're all the fucking same. And we all lived in that same shit for a long, long time. So they're just, uh, reminding us of, uh, what we're capable of. And, and hopefully that reminder shows us that, uh, we don't want to live that way anymore.

Bill (01:21:42.51)
Right. Yeah, that's that's actually a good point. See, that's that's the other reason I bring these up sometimes, because when whatever it was a couple of weeks ago when we talked about something, whatever statement it was, it didn't make sense to me. And right away you're like, yeah, it makes perfect sense. This is what it means. I'm like, yeah, OK, I got it. So sometimes I just read shit. I'm like, I don't fucking understand that. But yeah, and that's kind of funny. I think I think the delay is gone. And it reds were going to wrap up. But I fuck it. I think we're I think we're done because some.

Mike (01:22:00.453)
Hehehehehe

Mike (01:22:11.141)
No, really.

Bill (01:22:11.79)
Eh, yeah, you're not, you don't seem delayed to me anymore, so. But anyhow, well, you know, all you people out there, we'll figure out this delay thing one way or the other. It's gotta be just the fucking, the world wide web, whatever the fuck it is, but yeah, it gets a little annoying every once in a while, but you know what, we still, we put in the hard work for all you people out there. Right?

Mike (01:22:18.469)
All right.

Mike (01:22:31.525)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (01:22:39.877)
Hope you fucking appreciate it.

Bill (01:22:41.39)
Exactly. And now I think it's time for us to wrap up because yeah, we got more work to do in an hour or so. Mike, it's your turn.

Mike (01:22:50.213)
Alrighty well, thank you everyone for listening to another episode of sober not mature Hope you got something out of it. I know we did and You know as always go out there be kind do something nice do something nice for somebody else and don't tell anybody about it Guess what? It's that time. It's time for you to fuck off Then keep fucking off

Keep fucking off till you get to a gate with a sign on it saying you cannot fuck off past here. Climb over that gate, dream the impossible dream, and keep fucking off forever.

Bill (01:23:25.678)
You've been kind of changing up that ending just a little bit it's your voice it's your inflections and that every once in a while and Once again, it still makes me fucking makes me fucking laughs. So Alright, but I don't know. I just want to one thing I want to say again is yeah fuck you know as far as our buddy and I don't know. Thank thank everyone for listening to that shit I know some of you guys may not give a fuck about it. Maybe it helped maybe it didn't but

Mike (01:23:36.805)
What's next?

Bill (01:23:53.856)
You know what? This is one of those times if conversations like that help you guys, those of you who listen to us, let us know. You know, I mean, that's something I'd be interested because I have no idea how it comes out. I'll be honest with you. If people came back and said, please don't talk about that anymore, we're still going to. But I'm just curious if it's just curious to see if it if it hits home with anyone, you know, if it if it helps, because I don't hear a lot. I just I don't know.

We joke about being unique and joke about being this and that and blah, blah, blah. I'm not trying to be completely different in some things. And I had a whole nother conversation has popped into my head, but next week. Um, but you know, um, I don't hear a lot of people talk about some of these things like that. And I think it's important to, um, I don't, maybe people don't talk about it because they think that, you know, it's not, it's not rosy enough or it's not whatever. Well, fuck Rosie. This is life. You know, I mean, really it is, you know, so.

Mike (01:24:45.797)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. With the, with the roses come thorns.

Bill (01:24:52.11)
Haha, right. Alright, so on that note, I don't think I can top that. I know I can't. Alright brother, I love you and you know what, we're gonna talk in an hour or so. Bye.

Mike (01:25:00.453)
Good. I love you too. We are. Bye.