SoberNotMature - Episode 113 (Rewire Your Electric Meatball)

Bill (00:02.216)
All right, everyone. Welcome once again to another episode of Sober, Not Mature. And first of all, before we get into everything, and this is going to sound a little bit out of character for me, but I don't want to be, and I'm going to say quote unquote, a complete attention whore because this is not our anniversary episode, not at all. So I'm just going to ask one favor. Pretend like we're in a meeting and you're running the meeting and it gets to a certain point in the meeting. So.

Mike (00:19.214)
Uh -huh.

Mike (00:23.63)
Right? Yeah. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Bill (00:31.944)
Mike, could you please announce to the group or do whatever? That's all I want.

Mike (00:33.55)
Right. Right. Ah, so is anyone here celebrating a sober anniversary of a year or more? Horse Shack over in the corner.

Bill (00:38.696)
My name is Horshak. I am an alcoholic and yesterday I celebrated 14 years of sobriety. So thank you. And the room goes wild. Okay. So that's really, that's all I wanted. And next week, everyone tune in next week, Mike's anniversary.

Mike (01:03.118)
Hehehehehe

Bill (01:04.712)
Mike's anniversary is on Monday, so we're gonna do our full anniversary episode weekend the whole bit. We're gonna get all our sober on and go fucking sober nuts next week. But yeah, that's all I wanted, just a mild acknowledgement. So thank you for indulging me, I appreciate it. But yeah, Mike and I were chit chatting a little bit before we started because we're trying out, and you know, we're transparent about this fucking shit anyhow. Everyone knows we've had technology issues.

Mike is trying out a different computer. He's got Chris's computer, his girlfriend Chris's computer. It's not a Chromebook. It's Windows based with all this different shit doesn't matter. But we're kind of going back to normal. We don't have any band -aids on anything right now. Right yet, you know, so we're just gonna, we're gonna go with it and see what happens. And if it was the piece of equipment, then we'll figure it out going forward. But for now, hopefully, who knows?

Mike (01:35.726)
I do.

Mike (01:45.806)
yet.

Bill (01:58.76)
Who knows? I'm not even going to say hopefully. Whatever happens, happens. So fuck it. Yeah, and it's so far, two minutes and six seconds in, it's fucking working. So that's good. That was Mike's text message.

Mike (02:01.102)
More will be revealed.

Mike (02:12.942)
I clearly did not mute my phone. Yes, I've been doing other things.

Bill (02:19.528)
Fucking it, it doesn't like as if it matters. So yeah, Mike's got the well, go ahead and explain it. It's your fucking phone. Explain what your ringtone is and what your text message thing is.

Mike (02:29.838)
Well, my normal ringtone is the theme from Halloween, John Carpenter's Halloween. Um, and, uh, and yes, my notification thing is lurch saying you rang. Now I do have a Chris's, uh, when she calls me, it's the theme for the Munsters. And when she sends me a text, it is Morticia Adams saying males in.

Bill (02:36.232)
I'm gonna go.

Bill (02:43.272)
Yeah.

Bill (02:56.264)
Yeah, it just I've I haven't done anything with ringtones. Well, I've got I've got an old time ringtone and if I ever have my phone like the actual ringer on and not on silent, right? What which I never do but it's the Roadrunner when I get a text message any other notification. It's the Roadrunner going beep -beep Which gets really fucking annoying, you know, so I'd like it if I ever want to fuck around that I have that but I never have my phone. I

Mike (03:08.91)
Right, which is never.

Mike (03:17.358)
Oh, nice.

Mm -hmm.

Bill (03:25.864)
off of a silent mode. So at night I do, but that's only for emergency stuff. But we talked about that when mother died. So yeah, my emergency mode worked, but I don't know. So same thing. This is kind of what we were talking about before we started. I said, we're rambling back and forth. This might make for good recording. And Mike's like, I don't think so. And I said, but nothing. Right, because nothing, I think we settle on the fact that nothing we talk about is necessarily important, but.

Mike (03:30.958)
Right?

Mike (03:46.126)
No, and clearly I was right.

Mike (03:55.118)
Right.

Bill (03:55.368)
You know, sometimes it's funny. All right. But yeah, it's my last day in the Ozarks, man. I had such a nice time here. It was really cool. Yeah, I mean, just everything so far, I mean, it's basically just, you know, two weeks into this traveling thing. But I mean, my whole goal with this was to be someplace different, work during the week like I normally do, and then go explore, go do shit on the weekends, which is what I did, you know.

Mike (04:03.438)
Cool.

Mike (04:22.19)
Nice.

Bill (04:22.344)
And it was great. And yeah, the other thing I was just kind of a side note here. I think unless something changes, I think I'm going to spend June back in Indiana. I need a financial breather. I've got every I've got everything booked and I started looking at stuff and I'm like, you know what? Here's the deal. I mean, my work's going well. Things are building up all this stuff. It's all going to happen. But I'm like, same thing as we were talking about a few episodes ago. I can push it to the point where I'm like, not even where.

Mike (04:34.574)
Hehehehehe

Bill (04:50.088)
money's a little bit weird, it's like super fucking tight and I don't want to do that. So, yeah. Eh. Right. Eh. And you know what? And to begin with, I'm like, fuck me, man. It's like two months in and I got to fucking go back. But I'm like, no, that is exactly what I had originally planned on. I don't know if you remember when I first started talking about this, it's just.

Mike (04:53.39)
Huh? Yeah, right. And you don't have to, so, cause you're not a complete fucking pig painting the ass today. So you get to go stay with your sister for a little bit.

Mike (05:10.094)
Mm, yep.

Bill (05:16.904)
do this to whatever and then go hang out someplace for a couple of weeks or a month or do whatever. Number one, maybe save some cash, but also, I obviously see family and friends and, cause I can, but yeah, just I'm certain this place is a kind of, not a mess, but I'm getting all my shit together and pack up my car in the morning and yeah, 17 trips to get in and out of any place I'm in, but it's okay, man. But yeah, I'll be as of tomorrow.

Mike (05:20.91)
Right?

Mike (05:26.446)
Right?

Mike (05:42.574)
Right? Yeah. Yeah. And you got to complete your 14th time around the sun sober down in the Ozarks. That's pretty cool.

Bill (05:48.936)
Yeah, I did. I did. Yeah, it was. Yeah, to be here and again and I don't know, just it, we could talk about it more next week. I don't want to get into that. We got a whole fucking episode. We could talk about shit. So, but yeah, let's save it. But I agree, number one, thank you. And all the messages and, you know, just some of the stuff on Instagram. We got two messages or yeah, from.

Mike (06:02.094)
Oh yeah.

Bill (06:16.84)
People I'll get to those in a couple of minutes one was about and our anniversaries the other one was a different thing but We can do our reading first. I suppose I Suppose let's let's do a fucking reading Jesus Christ, man You you just never done are you just never done? And what'd you say enough about me I almost missed that part. Thank you. I appreciate that

Mike (06:19.534)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (06:25.582)
I suppose.

Mike (06:30.03)
All right, enough about you. I know. Oh, let's see here. Yes, I did. Yeah. Oh, let's see. I've marked one here. It was from this week. Actually, it's kind of funny because this week leading up to my anniversary and a couple of days after it and whatever.

I've got dog -eared pages all over the place here in the beginning of April. Yeah. And, um, right. I'm like, yeah, okay. So apparently the universe was trying to say something, but I wasn't sober yet. Didn't have this book. So, uh, I had to wait a year to get all this good shit.

Bill (07:01.864)
Oh, really? Nice.

Bill (07:11.848)
Heheheheh

Right.

Mike (07:17.678)
But let me see here. So I stuck this in here because apparently this jumped out at me this week. But this one or is it this one?

Bill (07:30.504)
I think it's that one.

Mike (07:31.726)
I don't know. Maybe it's neither of them. Maybe it wasn't that good. Maybe I wasn't fully awake yet.

Bill (07:37.64)
Hahaha!

Mike (07:44.302)
I mean, they're all good, but.

Bill (07:48.744)
Just trying to find the poignant one

Mike (07:52.59)
Yeah, I don't know. Well, like I said, I stuck my special bookmark in a Post -It note from fucking 10 years ago. Yeah, so it's either one of these two. Hell, let's go for this one. April 13th. There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell. Louis Armstrong, famous jazz musician.

Bill (07:59.912)
All right.

Bill (08:08.008)
Cool.

Mike (08:21.39)
Uh, that one, I know off the top of my head. Uh, let's see here. We all know people like that. In fact, most of us used to be people like that. Nobody could tell us anything we didn't want to hear about facing without people. Nobody could tell us anything we didn't want to hear without facing our defenses. We all had our own favorite defense mechanisms that we use to push people away when they try to tell us something.

For some of us, our favorite defense was denial. We simply said, no, that's not how it is. Others of us said, yes, that's a problem, but it's caused by someone else, not me. Or we use this one. I know I can't, I know I shouldn't act that way, but I'm just no good and I can't do anything about it. Or we said, it's not that bad.

In recovery, we don't have to put up our defenses anymore. Now we can listen to what others tell us and think about it. We can check out new ideas. In the end, we can take what we like and leave the rest. What a relief. We don't have to be know -it -alls anymore. We can relax and learn. Life can be interesting again. Prayer for the day. Higher power, help me to enjoy learning from others. Help me listen well.

Think clearly and ask for advice. Today's action, damn those actions. I will list the three favorite defenses I used when people tried to tell me something I didn't wanna hear. Then I will talk with my sponsor or a recovery friend about how I am changing these defenses.

Bill (10:07.4)
It's a goddamn good thing you have a recovery friend here on the line. So where would you like to start? But in that one, obviously, I mean, only a few days ago, I remember reading that because, I mean, there was a lot of obviously good stuff in there. I wrote, nobody could tell us anything without facing our defenses. I just wrote down the word denial. Problems caused by someone else. There was a few other ones in there.

Mike (10:11.598)
Yeah, that's convenient.

Mike (10:24.398)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (10:28.814)
Right.

Bill (10:35.4)
I wrote down not that bad because that reminded me of something. Take what we like and leave the rest. And then obviously the last thing, the three favorite defenses. So maybe let's start there. I mean, do you, can you name off three things that either maybe even now that you fight against three defenses or, you know, things that used to be there. And the reason I say now is maybe they don't come out for us, but I, I'm sure that I've got defenses that are ready to go up. And then I'm like, nah.

Mike (10:42.094)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (10:54.254)
Hmm.

Mike (11:02.862)
Oh, right, right. Well, I mean, probably the one that I use the most, you know, because I'm I'm intelligent and I'm intuitive and you know, thank you for laughing. I could barely get it out myself. Oh.

Bill (11:17.608)
Oh, by the way, it's like I pictured you straightening your imaginary tie. Intelligent and intuitive.

Mike (11:31.598)
Right. Yes, but, yes, but the one, right. So someone would point out a problem, you know, whatever that may be. And I would agree. Sure. Yes, of course that's a problem. How could it not be a problem? You know, but it's not my fault. I don't have anything. It's a problem. What do you want me to fucking do about it? Why don't you fix it? You got a problem with it, right?

Bill (11:58.856)
Right.

Mike (11:59.182)
That's my fucking, that was my defense. Pretty much, you know, yeah, you know, clearly there was denial involved too. Well, that is denial, but you know, I generally wouldn't say, no, it's not a problem. I would agree because, you know, that's a good way to manipulate people, agree with their premise and then say that their premise is unfixable and...

You know, and even if it is fixable, I can't do anything about it. So why are you fucking bothering me with it? Right. So, yeah, I mean, that that was pretty much my go to. Yeah. And the cool thing today is, you know, I get to say, yes, of course, that's a problem and I get to look for my part in it.

Bill (12:30.504)
Hehehehehe

Mike (12:47.95)
Um, it may not be entirely my problem, but there's something in there that I fucked up somewhere and, and I need to look at it and fix it. And again, with all of this shit, it's, it's, it's freeing because I go, okay, I have, I have a way to get the fuck out of this one way or another. Um, and that's, that's pretty damn cool. So yeah, that was mine.

Bill (13:12.392)
Yeah, um, and I was actually as you were talking, I don't know that, um, and I just, I keep thinking back to, I mean, Dawn was the one that, that I lied to the most. Um, you know, I think because she was, I mean, she's well, yeah. And well, in probably during, yeah, in that, in the, the beginning of my worst, yes, I spent the most time with her. Cause I'm thinking back when, when Pam and I were together, not that I didn't have a problem because I mean, that's when I got my DUI and all that stuff. But, you know, obviously, you know, within,

Mike (13:20.494)
Sure, because she spent the most time with you.

Mike (13:39.63)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (13:42.792)
from 94 to, you know, 2004, huge difference, you know, in who I was and how much I was drinking and how much I was hiding and lying. But I just say, I just think about all those conversations and I don't, I don't remember actually, like you said, unless I thought it could, you know, just kind of placate the situation or placate the person, meaning her or somebody else, I don't think that I would agree to a problem unless I just thought that that would make them walk away. You know what I mean?

Mike (13:47.694)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (14:03.214)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (14:07.278)
Mm -hmm.

Mm. Mm -hmm.

Bill (14:13.)
Um, but what I, what I did, um, was always, it was a matter of, um, just denial, you know, and denial and misdirection, you know, right. And like I said, and I've been, I've been open about this stuff. You know, she was, um, she knew that I was drinking during the day, but she couldn't prove it because I, I, I found out that she was market bottles. So I just didn't drink out of that bottle anymore. I bought my own. Um,

Mike (14:20.142)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (14:23.726)
Smok and Mears.

Mike (14:33.486)
Mm hmm. Right.

Mike (14:39.598)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Bill (14:41.704)
I found out that she was counting the beer, so I bought my own, you know, and those sort of things. And, you know, even when she, because she knew she could tell it was my eyes, that picture I posted on Instagram. I mean, that's that was that was drunk Bill with his drunk eyes and every fucking time, you know, some people, it's their nose, you know, some people, it's actually their speech. I could hold my own. I could speak. I could walk. I could act unless I really crossed whatever that line was that we talked about. But.

Mike (14:45.102)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (14:52.014)
Sure.

Mike (14:56.974)
Hmm?

Mike (15:09.294)
Right.

Bill (15:09.448)
I couldn't hide the drunk in my eyes, you know? But I just fucking lied to her. I'm like, no, I didn't. She's like, but this and that? I'm like, no, that's not what you're seeing. You're seeing this, you know? And making her feel foolish because then she started, and she admitted this to me a couple of times. She's like, you make me doubt myself. I know I'm right, but she's like, you make me doubt myself. And I think back and I'm like, what a fucking piece of shit.

Mike (15:28.782)
Mm -hmm, right. Mm -hmm.

Mike (15:35.854)
Right.

Bill (15:39.208)
Because you know what, she's a beautiful person inside and out. I'm not even speaking about her looks, because that's not the point. She's a beautiful individual and a caring individual. And her and I have a great, just have a wonderful relationship now. And you look back at that, and I did that to my mom, and I did that to my sister, I did that to whoever got close to me who would ask those questions. Denial was my biggest friend.

Mike (15:43.982)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Right, I know.

Mm -hmm. D 'ight.

Mike (15:56.302)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (16:02.702)
Mm -hmm. Sure.

Mike (16:07.918)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (16:08.104)
Um, it wasn't me, but, but I saw you. Nope. Wasn't me, man. Yeah. It's must've been some other guy to look just like me and was wearing my shoes. You know, it just fucking wasn't me, man. But, um, yeah, I don't know if I had, if I had three, but so the reason I thought about it when I said, uh, like today, you know, the biggest thing is that I think about it from a, I don't care what it is, a work standpoint, um, or anything, anytime something happens.

Mike (16:10.574)
Nope. Nope, you were wrong.

Mike (16:18.35)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Bill (16:38.056)
You know to me or I made a mistake or I did something wrong. I always it's my first and it's so stupid It's in my brain. It doesn't come out this way. I don't use this but in my head I'm like this happened because of you know, and it's never because of me You know, at least that's not my first go I'll admit to it because I learned you know, it's it's far better to you know to admit to something that it is to try to cover it up and you just It's a fucking lie beyond lie, but that's still it's a go -to in my head. I

Mike (16:41.23)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (16:52.558)
Hehehehehe

Mike (16:57.902)
Right?

Bill (17:07.624)
Thankfully, it just doesn't come out of my mouth, you know.

Mike (17:07.886)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Right. Oh, God, we've talked about that tons of times, right? Our thoughts don't fucking matter. It's our actions. And that's prime example of it. Yeah, exactly. Why? And when we've talked about it, we've talked about, look, that's the way we fucking lived for the first 40 plus years of our lives. Why would that be any different today? At 14 years of trying not to act that way? You know, yes, we're better at.

Bill (17:13.352)
Right.

Right.

Mike (17:35.918)
not acting that way now, but yeah, our brain, our fucking stupid, stupid electric meatball in our skull. I just heard that term this week and I loved it. So I got to use it. Yay. But yes, the electric meatball in our skull is still gonna fire wrong. Cause that's just the way we've done it forever.

Bill (17:44.2)
hahahaha

Bill (17:51.144)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

You know, I I always hate that hate but I never try to suggest an episode anything to do with the title but something with a fucking meatball The electric meatball. Oh My god, that's uh, that's fucking I've never heard that before Thank you. That was a good one. Um, I

Mike (18:06.798)
Hmm. Right. Yep. Yeah. I think we found our episode title.

Mike (18:20.942)
Yeah.

Bill (18:24.68)
But yeah, it's weird, you know, like you said, it's, I mean, these things, and once again, I know we say this all the time, but for anyone who's new, new -ish, or if you feel like struggling, or you feel like you are struggling, you know, because you haven't gotten rid of these, number one, either bad behaviors, past behaviors, defects of characters, is, you know, we call them, and a lot of people do, they don't go away. You just find a way to, number one, you recognize and manage them, you know, and if nothing else, minimize the effects of this.

Mike (18:38.382)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (18:47.342)
Right?

Bill (18:54.088)
this fucking evil shit that's still within you. Mike says it, yeah, you say it all the time, man. Your thoughts are still all fucked up. All kinds of fucked up, I think you say.

Mike (19:00.942)
Mm -hmm. All kinds of yes, I do. Because it's true, because it's a program of honesty. But again, yeah, but I say that shit out loud and I make I make sure everybody around me knows that. So that way. Yeah, so I'm accountable. But yes, my thoughts are still fucked up. And that's like you said, if you're early on or even you're not so early on and you're still.

Bill (19:08.904)
Right? Right.

Mike (19:27.278)
Struggling with the fact that your thoughts are all fucked up in your head. It's okay, man You know, it was like when we're at that retreat and that guy said to me he said I feel like I'm faking this I feel like a you know, I'm cheating something or you know, this is not real and I went yeah We all feel like that. It's okay, man You know, these are not the people that we are these are we are the people today that act differently and and

Bill (19:45.032)
Right, right.

Mike (19:54.99)
You know, and, and, and do the right thing, but that's not fucking who we are. If we were, we wouldn't have ended up here.

Bill (20:01.256)
Right. Well, and that's a thing too that, you know, we talk about having to having to do the work, you know, and, and it's these days, it's, it's more of a, you know, everything we talk about, we use the word maintenance and the daily maintenance and all those sorts of things and maintaining, you know, our spiritual condition, but it's still work. There's still effort that has to go into, into play, you know, you can't, I mean, you can't, I don't know, with exercise, you got to have movement, you know, to, to gain a

Mike (20:09.134)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (20:15.534)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (20:29.224)
gain weight or lose weight, whatever you want to do, you've got to, you've got to, yeah, you've got to take some sort of action. It's the same thing with this. I mean, you can't just sit there and do nothing, even if it's relatively simple and more habit than anything, you know, it still takes work, you know, but yeah, we've got to keep working on this shit or the, the bad stuff is just, it's just, you know, kind of hovering and bubbling below the surface and just waiting to, you know, fucking burst.

Mike (20:30.83)
Mm -hmm. Build muscle. Right.

Mike (20:39.758)
Mmm.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mike (20:55.918)
Absolutely.

Bill (20:57.736)
And it's, it would be a bad thing because I, I sure as fuck don't want that to happen. Um, but the other thing that I, that I wrote down was, um, not that bad, you know, and I don't remember exactly how the line went, but, um, you know, just to, in general, when if somebody calls us out on our, on our behavior, and I just immediately thought back of, you know, once again, 36 years old when my, that's when my dad got sober and when I was 36 and we discovered this on this podcast about a year and a half ago.

Mike (21:26.414)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Bill (21:28.168)
you know, that that was the first time that I actually did. I questioned my drinking and, you know, looked at myself in the mirror and said, I'm not that bad, you know, so, but I was, I was that bad, you know, and it was only, and I say only quote unquote, you know, five years before I got sober, roughly, it could have been four and a half, whatever the deal was, but I mean, yeah, just to have that, to realize where I was. And I know, you know, that,

Mike (21:40.334)
Of course.

Mike (21:49.486)
Right?

Bill (21:55.592)
the darkness in that last four years before I got sober was super fucking dark. I mean, I was that bad, you know, and you know, just, I don't know. I mean, and then they have somebody come up and I don't know somebody. Yeah, you get a little cut on your hand. That's not that bad. But if you're if you're fucking bleeding and you're trying to hold it and blood spurting out all over the place, that was how we were living. And people were telling us, you got to go to the fucking doctor, man. That's not that bad. I'm good. But a flesh.

Mike (22:00.334)
Mm -hmm.

Of course.

Mike (22:12.782)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (22:19.054)
Exactly.

Mike (22:23.086)
Nah, it's not that bad. Just but a scratch.

Bill (22:25.416)
I was just going to say that. This is but a flesh wound. That's it. That's all it is. Now the last thing I guess that I don't know that we've ever talked about this and take what we like and leave the rest. That is that's an AA saying from the big book. Am I correct on that? Is that a Bill Wilson thing or do you know?

Mike (22:31.95)
That's right.

Mike (22:41.134)
Hmm.

Mike (22:47.406)
You know, I'm not a hundred percent sure on that one I want to say it is but again not a hundred percent sure about 75 % I think it is Bill Wilson though

Bill (22:57.288)
Yeah, that's like, and I think so too. And for, again, we, we've heard it, we've heard it, you know, I'm not maybe from day one, but I mean, from very, very early on, you know, all, all the time, but for anyone who doesn't understand what that means, that's the cool part about, and I'll just say recovery in general. And there's a, there's people that we've talked to that, you know, once again have, have popped in or dipped a toe in, or even maybe a, you know, a full leg into the AA thing and went off in a different direction. But.

Mike (23:03.662)
Oh, right.

Mike (23:08.526)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (23:14.03)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (23:23.502)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (23:25.448)
A lot of those people say, hey, I took some stuff from it. And whether it was minor things or big things or whatever it is, that's the point. Even for those of us like Mike and I and a lot of people that we know that have stayed within the principles and the foundations and everything like that of all the AA principles and program and blah, blah, there's still certain things that we probably don't follow. I know for a fact that we don't follow things. Whatever the...

Mike (23:28.942)
Right.

Mike (23:44.814)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (23:51.72)
whatever the exact, there's no rule, you know? I mean, there's suggestions, there's steps and all that. Nobody does it, yeah, yeah, right. But nobody does it the exact same way. So all of us do, for the most part, in some way, shape or form, take what we like and leave the rest, right?

Mike (23:55.726)
Right. Yeah, there's one rule. 62.

Mike (24:03.598)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (24:09.134)
Absolutely. Yeah. All right. You know, and you know, we've as an alcoholic, I have to be careful with that because there's some shit, you know, right? Well, I'm not doing that. You know, we're not talking about that. Yes, you have to work the program the way it's laid out. But yeah, there are there are things that, you know, OK, there are certain groups that you're not supposed to talk about drugs.

Bill (24:16.072)
Right?

Mike (24:36.718)
Right? You know, that's like a, on a group level thing, you know, individual meeting thing. Um, Foxy Don actually showed up at a Pyridus this week, right? He hasn't been there in a while. Yeah. He's, he was, uh, you guys that don't know, um, he very instrumental in our early sobriety. Um, he's the one that got me into, uh, having Pyridus, my home group. Um, he's in his later eighties now.

And so he doesn't get out as much as he used to and whatever. But anyway, one of his sponsors is our new secretary. And so he came to hang out this week. No big deal. Just he was there. And, you know, we're we're hanging out before the meeting and somebody was talking about leading West Park men's right now and that they were going to be leading this Wednesday, this past Wednesday. And.

Bill (25:23.432)
Heheheheh

Mike (25:31.182)
And, uh, one of the other guys, one of the normal home group guys said, Hey man, make sure you don't talk about drugs. You know, and of course, Don and I, cause I love Don and he's got the same, you know, the guy's got, uh, 45 plus years sober. Um, and you know, we always love tearing into this, you know,

Bill (25:38.824)
Heheheheh

Mike (25:53.902)
Well, I, I remember, you know, reading the book, uh, I remember some guy named Bill Wilson. He talked about drugs and, uh, some guy named Dr. Bob, he talked about drugs and in the beginning, Dr. Silkworth, he mentions drugs and, you know, yeah, I mean, it's in the fucking big book. Now I understand, uh, on meeting levels, you know, again, some guys are real serious singleness of purpose. Okay. Settle down with your singleness of purpose. It does not mean you can only talk about alcohol.

Bill (26:02.024)
Hehehe

Bill (26:20.008)
Hahaha!

Mike (26:23.662)
Um, but some people believe that okay fine. I I don't take that. I don't subscribe to that notion. Um, that's something that I leave. Um, you know, again, the founders took drugs, uh, you know, the guy was like, the guy was like, yeah, well, you know, bill Wilson was prescribed and I said, yeah. And then he fucking abused them. And, uh, Dr. Bob was pulling them out of his fucking doctor bag.

Bill (26:51.24)
All right. All right.

Mike (26:51.502)
So, uh, you know, shut the fuck up. But yes. Um, yes, there are differences and there are things that I leave. Um, and you know, again, this is before the meeting and, uh, you know, we have fun arguing that point with people that don't like to argue that point. Um, but there are things about the program, definitely that I leave, not what to do with the program, how it works. No.

Yeah, that's not, I'm not doing a fucking six and seven step, because again, back to this wonderful denial shit, I'm fine. Everything, it's not that bad. You know, I don't have any defects of character. It's everybody else's fault. Yeah, right. So, you know, yes, work the program the way it is worked out. But there are bits and pieces that I leave. Clearly the God thing, you know. Yeah, you know, that's fine.

Bill (27:23.304)
Right, right.

Mike (27:44.782)
If that works for you, if that's how you wrap your head around your electric meatball around How this thing works great, you know cool I don't give a fuck away or another, you know, I I don't I wrap my head around it another way That's cool, too. Yay. All right So yes leave what you can't use but take what you can and what you can take and use use it

Bill (27:49.352)
hahahaha

Bill (28:08.936)
Right. Well, and who do you know, which was a, that was the home group that Mike and I went to for years. That was, you know, again, very strict. They called themselves a closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, which in technically what a closed meeting is, is just, you know, people who have the, if you have a desire to quit drinking, then you could be there. If you're, you know, not sure. And, you know, the whole point is that they're one that no drugs, no drugs in the lead. So we had, we had friends, you know, when we were, you know, actually we would have people lead.

Mike (28:19.278)
Mm hmm. Right.

Mike (28:27.918)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Bill (28:38.408)
or when we led there, I mean, I didn't have a problem with it, but, you know, yeah, but I remember plenty of our friends, you know, saying, well, I did anything to get my alcohol. And it just said, change the fucking words. I mean, people are gonna realize what you're talking about, but you just, you know, you don't just don't, don't make, yeah, out of respect. If you don't wanna do it, if you can't lead in 30 minutes and you wanna talk about drugs, don't go to that meeting, you know, and don't agree to lead. That's what it is. But the other thing I thought about as far as like leaving certain things, you know,

Mike (28:41.07)
Right, right, weirdo.

Mike (28:48.878)
Right. Mm -hmm. Out of respect.

Mike (28:58.926)
Uh huh. Right.

Bill (29:07.848)
A lot of what we were told, like you said, the God thing, number one, but thankfully we had people like, you know, chicken Dan and stuff like that to said, Hey, you know, and explain the whole higher power thing to us, which is wonderful. But then the other thing too, is that the praying, everyone says, you've got to get down on your knees. It humbles yourself and this and that. There's not been one day of my sobriety that I've gotten down on my knees to pray. I don't do it, you know? And when I was, when I was a kid and I'd go someplace to a Catholic church and you'd have to get, you know, do the whole deal thing. I'm like, Oh,

Mike (29:14.478)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (29:22.51)
Mm. Mm -hmm.

Mike (29:27.406)
Right? Me neither. Right? Me neither.

Mike (29:35.502)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (29:37.32)
even as a kid. And again, I have nothing against people who are in organized religion and do all that shit. No issue with it. I'm fine with it. I just, I don't want to do it, you know? And I don't need to get on my fucking knees to pray. I'm humbled. I can be humble laying on my back in my bed, which is what I do. Or if I'm someplace else with a group of people, I will literally sit on the fucking toilet with the lid closed, of course, and I'll do my prayers.

Mike (29:44.302)
Mm -hmm. Right. Yeah.

Mike (29:52.846)
Right.

Hmm? Me too.

Mike (30:03.182)
Mmm. Hmm.

Bill (30:04.04)
If somebody's gonna be like, who, you can't do your prayers while you're sitting on a toilet. Fuck you. Yes I can, I do what I did.

Mike (30:09.326)
Yes, I can. That's right. It's happened and I'm still sober. So, you know, eat shit.

Bill (30:15.752)
Right, yeah. Yeah, exactly. That was perfect. That was actually perfect. But yeah, it is. I guess that goes back to the, once again, taking what we like and leaving the rest could be an extremely dangerous and slippery slope. If we try to, once again, shoot angles and things like that and.

Mike (30:22.702)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (30:34.19)
Mm -hmm.

Right, yeah, work your own program. No, work the program, but yes, but do it your way.

Bill (30:43.24)
Yeah, and if I mean somebody's out there and they're listening to everything they said you're still confused talk to somebody close to you that you trust, you know, they have some time and has been doing this thing and you know run it by him that that's worst case scenario ask somebody am I good doing this or am I not good or is this affecting me or not because it's we can't we rarely can see our own behavior, you know, and the things that I do every day is just I've been doing so fucking long. I mean, I I I

Mike (30:57.038)
Mmm.

Mike (31:01.038)
Right.

Bill (31:09.736)
People know what I do and we've talked about it enough. I mean, I know I'm doing all the right things, but I can't, if I, I don't know, we can't see our own behavior sometimes, but I just, I follow my same path that I've been doing for years and apparently it's worked so far, right? So what else? Anything else in the reading? I mean, I think we hit everything that I wrote down, but it was a good one though. I mean, I liked it.

Mike (31:12.686)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (31:21.774)
Mm -hmm. Exactly.

Mike (31:31.022)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. Yeah, you know, it was like I said, I stuck the piece of paper in there. So and I'm pretty sure that was the one I wanted. But I'm not 100 % because you know what? I'm not a fucking 100 % about anything today and it's a good thing. I don't know it all. Yay.

Bill (31:51.976)
Is your microphone by any chance loose? Because you were cutting out just a little bit. I don't think it's the recording. It sounded like more of a microphone thing. OK. You still there?

Mike (32:02.286)
No, I don't think so. Haven't touched it and I'm right here. Can you hear me?

Uh oh, I'm, I'm pecking here. Okay. Ah, weird. No, I mean, it's, uh, I've used some fine and everything I'm saying, the meter is moving.

Bill (32:10.248)
Yeah, I mean, I can hear you. I'm sure it's recording fine. It's bubbly.

Bill (32:20.136)
It's actually, it's good.

Yeah, it's good now. It was weird. It was like a bubbly time for literally about 30 seconds. It was weird. And it did it one other time, but it kicked through after about five seconds. So I left it, but that one was, yeah, you sounded like you were, just bubbly. That's the only way I can picture it or explain it. But either way, you're fucking bubbly. So one other real quick thing, and I had to tell you this because it was a perfect example of what.

Mike (32:38.958)
All right. It's my personality.

Mike (32:45.326)
Hehehehehe

Bill (32:52.648)
What I talked about with not losing sleep and all those sort of things to be able to sleep at night so my The sobriety counter that I use is my big book app on my phone, and I've obviously used it for years So every year coming up to my anniversary it does it every year and I know it's gonna do it but it's still fucking freaks me out because I'd like to do a Screenshot of it today obviously day of so it's got you know the number of years and the number of days the right number of days and all that stuff

Mike (33:04.878)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (33:17.262)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (33:21.288)
Usually it'll hit whatever year it is or whatever milestone it is, it'll hit the day before on the 17th. This year it hit two days before on the 16th. And I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? And so then I like screenshot screenshots. I'm like, I don't want to lose the actual milestone year. I'm like, what the fuck, man? So I go to bed on Wednesday night, my anniversary is on Thursday. And...

Mike (33:28.526)
Hmm.

Mike (33:31.95)
Really?

Mike (33:40.366)
Sure.

Mike (33:46.798)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (33:47.656)
It was weird. I'm like, God, you know, part of me just wants to stay up till 1201. I know you have, I know you have, but I'm like, I want to stay up. And I'm like, oh, fine. I can't, I can't fucking do that. I get up too goddamn early. So I went to bed at, I don't know. It was like 10 o 'clock or 10, 15 or something like that. And I'm like, oh, this would be kind of fun if I could sometimes rarely, but sometimes I'll wake up in the middle of the night, have to go to the bathroom. I grabbed some water or whatever. So I woke up and I'm like, I'm like, oh, that's kind of funny. And I look at it's, it's 1140.

Mike (33:51.502)
I've done that.

Mike (33:58.798)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (34:11.086)
Right.

Mike (34:16.846)
Yeah.

Bill (34:17.192)
And I'm like, I'm like, I'm too fucking tired to even stay up for 20 more minutes. So I went back to sleep. I woke up again at like two 30 or something like that. Then I took a screenshot, but it was still, it was still fine in the morning. But, um, the point is, is that I had, I had these, I didn't even know what my dreams were. They were all fucked up. Must've had a restless night's sleep. It was, they weren't bad dreams. So it's just very active shit going on. Um, but I was so.

Mike (34:22.158)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (34:40.654)
Mm -hmm.

Right?

Bill (34:45.8)
fucking wiped out. It's like all morning on Thursday because I don't think I got very much sleep, you know, and I think it was it was a I probably a mild anxiety, which is so stupid. I can't get a proper screenshot. But then also it's my anniversary and I and I get I do get you know, I enjoy it. I really do, you know, but I'm like I'm thinking about my God this hope this tiredness is going to be worth it because it gives it's an example, you know, weird shit happens bad.

Mike (34:51.566)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (35:06.222)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (35:13.678)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (35:15.592)
quote unquote bad moments and stuff like that. I sleep like a fucking baby. But when it's either I'm trying to get a fucking screenshot on my phone or it's, you know, coming up on my anniversary, I can't fucking sleep. Are you kidding me? It's fucked up. I don't know. Just fucking, just fucking weird.

Mike (35:28.366)
Yeah. Control issues, man.

Bill (35:33.928)
I know. And it was, uh, and the thing with this is it, it literally, and I've had that big book app. I don't know if I had it. Um, I may have had it the first year. Cause I remember I was, I was spending a ton of money on, um, I was downloading music at a dollar a pop on, you know, songs I was downloading. And, you know, back when, yeah, kids, when we had to pay for, when we actually had to pay legally pay for music, you know, and then, um, different games, I was like, you know, fucking angry birds and all this different shit.

Mike (35:51.214)
Hehehehehe

Mike (35:56.91)
Mmm.

Bill (36:02.44)
And I remember that I was looking for a sobriety app, so it must have been before my year, because I looked at that one and I remember telling you, I'm like, I'm like, fuck man, I kind of want this one, but like it's fucking $6. I'm like, no, I pay fucking $6. And then I walked away and I came back to you. I'm like, do you realize what I just said? And I'm, I don't think you did because I'm like, I'm like, I probably spent a hundred dollars on fucking music and stupid fucking video games and I won't spend $6 on my fucking sobriety.

Mike (36:13.646)
Right.

Mike (36:31.886)
Uh -huh.

Bill (36:32.072)
I immediately ordered it. I'm just like, it was so fucking stupid. And I've done that with a couple of the apps that I have. I think my apps were my readings, same deal. I had to pay nine bucks, 10 bucks, whatever. And to begin with, I'm like, 10 fucking, I'm like, stop it. Just pay the fucking $10. This is helping you live a decent and somewhat structured life, right? So yeah, it was just fucking weird, just weird.

Mike (36:48.942)
Hehehehehe

Right.

Exactly. Yeah.

Meh, then I've got my cheap ass. I've got something called clean time counter and it's all it is is a clock that runs for your, from your sobriety date on. Yeah. Yeah. And I just looked at it. It's yes. It's a 13 years, 11 months and 28 days.

Bill (37:05.448)
Hahaha.

Bill (37:10.92)
Right.

Bill (37:18.12)
It's right on track. But the reason I wanted the big book one is because I really did. I wanted it for meetings and stuff like that because this app is set up. So if it's literally in the book in the fourth edition, which is what most meetings have, if somebody says, hey, OK, we're going to open up to the story that's on page 182, I can go to 182 and it gives me the right page. So the pages are lined up.

Mike (37:21.966)
It is.

Mike (37:27.214)
Right.

Mike (37:33.134)
Mm -hmm.

Right.

Mike (37:44.462)
Right. Yeah, right.

Bill (37:46.312)
which is great. Oh, I'm sorry, actually this may only have the first 164, but either way, you know, somebody says we're going to read from page 62, you know, it goes right to that page, which was, it's nice, you know, because some of them don't line up that way, but yeah, anyhow, so either one of them work, but I mean, I bought it, you pay for it once, it's not like you have to buy it, you know, it's not even $6 a year, which I, this is not a lot of money, even if I had to do that, you know, so I don't know.

Mike (37:53.966)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (38:14.312)
But I like it, so it's all good.

But so real quick, maybe before we take a break, the Keating Center event last weekend.

Mike (38:24.334)
Ah, yes. The Keating center event. Um, yeah, we had a pretty decent turnout. I have no idea how we did. Um, I was, uh, over out the, uh, the politically incorrect Chinese raffle, the baskets raffle. Um, we, we actually don't call it the Chinese raffle anymore. We haven't done that for, I don't know, four years, maybe. Yeah. It hasn't been that long. Um, but, um, yeah, so I was, uh,

Bill (38:26.888)
Yes.

Bill (38:37.256)
Ahem.

Bill (38:46.855)
Yeah, really?

Mike (38:53.07)
We worked that. So I don't know. They had, uh, the poker tables and the blackjack tables and a craps table. And there was people over there playing it pretty much the whole time we were there the whole five hours. So, uh, yeah, I'm sure we did pretty damn well. Yeah. Good turnout and, uh, lots of cool people and you know, people I haven't seen in a while and yeah, always fun.

Bill (39:08.104)
Nice.

Bill (39:15.784)
Well, that's good. Well, and I know we've talked about it before, but I mean, the Keating Center, that's how they support themselves. I mean, there's, they get donations and all this different stuff throughout the year and food donations, blah, blah, blah. But these events, you know, is where they make, you know, this and the golf and the, the clam bake and all the other events that they do. There's probably what, six, seven per year, five or six, really?

Mike (39:22.702)
Sure.

Mike (39:32.622)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (39:36.91)
No, not that many. Nah. Uh, we do the Clambake in the fall. We do, uh, like a kind of early spring St. Patrick's day. This one, you know, it was kind of that one we did a little later because a lot of the houses, there are more houses in town now. So a lot of them do St. Patrick's day. So we've moved a bit forward. Um, then we do the golf outing, then we do a summer one and that's it, man. So what four? Yeah. You know, but.

Bill (39:48.008)
Oh yeah.

Bill (40:02.568)
Right, right. Yeah, I don't know why it seemed like more, but I mean, they're well, and I don't mean that in a bad way, but they're a big deal. You know, I mean, they make money and the turnout, it just, even like this Clambank last year, I mean, it was so fucking cold. You know, but people still came out and some people just, they bought their ticket, they came out, they bought some shit, they were freezing and they left. They still came out, you know, to show up.

Mike (40:06.542)
Yeah.

Mike (40:11.758)
Right. Mm -hmm.

Mike (40:20.974)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (40:27.63)
Right. Mm -hmm. Yep.

Bill (40:30.184)
spend some money, literally probably throw some money at people and then they left. So many people when they were, so I was selling the, what was I selling? The raffle tickets, right? The 50 50 was, yeah. Then like, do we have to be here? Do we have to be present? I'm like, yeah, yeah, you do. And they're like, oh, people just, you'll just fucking shiver. And but, but yeah, I mean, things like that, they're, they're a lot of fun to be a part of, but I mean, they're, they're important, you know, it's in the.

Mike (40:33.838)
Right? Yep.

Mike (40:39.31)
Yeah, you were doing the 50 -50, right? Yeah.

Mike (40:45.934)
Hehehehehe

Mike (40:55.15)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (40:55.368)
It's that the support that the Keating Center gets is just, it's always been mind blowing to be in a very, very good way, you know? So along those lines, just as a quick side note there, what do you think for somebody, again, if they're new or somebody's looking to, you know, kind of give back, what do you think are the, I wrote this down as a side note, easiest ways to give back in early recovery or anytime, but specifically early recovery, because that seems to be the, obviously the key time. What do you think are the easiest ways?

Mike (41:01.646)
Right. Yep.

Mike (41:25.038)
Um, well, the easiest way is, uh, join a home group, um, and be a active member of that home group. That's, that's the easiest way, man. Set up the meeting, you know, get there when the lights go on and leave when the lights go off. Um, one meeting a week, you know, make coffee, um, you know, be a greeter, stand at the door and shake hands. Everybody that walks in, um, there were a couple of meetings where, you know, we had to do that. Um, I.

Bill (41:39.24)
Right.

Mike (41:55.118)
I'm still doing it, man. You know, I'm the co -treasurer of my home group. I have been for several years. I sit at the ticket table, right? You guys that don't know Cleveland, AA meetings, sell raffle tickets, pretty much at every meeting. It's a weird fucking thing, but that's what we do. And I've always wondered, do they have open bars at GA meetings? Gambler's anonymous.

Bill (42:17.16)
Right, right.

Mike (42:21.742)
This is a form of gambling. But yeah, so I'm right there at the door at the ticket table. So I, you know, I greet people when they come in and I'm still doing it. You know, again, that's do what you fucking did in the beginning. Keep doing it. And guess what? You stay fucking sober. But yeah, you know, that's that's really the easiest thing. Be involved. Get involved with a meeting once a week. Make it your home group. Be an active member. That's easiest way to do it. Doesn't cost you a fucking thing.

just some time and it gets you involved. You know, you're there early, you're sitting around with at least a couple other guys or girls who have been around for a few years are clearly working the program. That's, that's it, man. That's, that's the whole fellowship angle of this thing. And it's an important part of it. It's not the most important part, but it is an important part.

Bill (43:17.864)
Right. Yeah. And I mean, that's, uh, and we were, again, I'll say forced because we, we were, and most of us didn't want to, I know I sure as fuck didn't want to do all that shit to begin with. Right. Right. But, um, but any of that, I mean, it is, it's easy. And even if, you know, let's, let's step aside again, somebody who doesn't, you know, do a 12 step thing, um, just get active with some thing, some item in the recovery community. That's all you have to do. One thing. And I know that especially these days, there's a lot of people out there and.

Mike (43:26.51)
I still don't fucking want to.

Yeah.

Mike (43:37.518)
Mm -hmm.

Right.

Bill (43:47.528)
more power to you because if you have the time and the effort, want to take the effort and all that stuff to do it, you know, people are out there doing all this different stuff, social media, it's all this, all these different things that people are, you know, that spreading themselves really thin, which again is fine. If you're young and you got the energy, which neither one of us are. And, uh, um, but this, I mean, we ended up, you know, you don't have to start a podcast. A lot of people do that because they want to get back fine, you know, but I have another side note on podcast stuff, but we'll do it after the break. But, uh,

Mike (43:56.59)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (44:01.358)
Hmm. Hmm.

Nope.

Mike (44:10.894)
Mm. Mm -hmm.

Bill (44:17.352)
I don't know, just I thought about it with the Keating Center thing. I'm like, that would be a nice, just a good side question about what is the easiest way. So I think, yeah, just getting involved, getting active in one thing, just one, yeah.

Mike (44:25.262)
Right.

Yeah, and and again if you're not into the a thing or the na thing or even a recovery thing go fucking volunteer to soup kitchen go, you know, I've you Definitely those people there have substance problems. Um Otherwise, they wouldn't fucking be there. Um And you know or whatever man, you know, uh volunteer at the fucking red cross or something I mean they do something for somebody else is really the bottom line

Bill (44:40.808)
Right. Right.

Mike (44:56.974)
Get out of your own fucking way and do something for somebody else for the greater good. Make your little corner of the world a better place.

Bill (45:03.56)
Right, I agree. All right, so this is going to be really fucking weird because first of all, I have to write down the time because I'm going to have to cut the episode here because it doesn't appear that we're going to have to restart a studio. So we're going to take a break like we used to and I'm going to make a quick note and then we're going to be, well, Mike, I don't know, God, I almost forgot. You do the break.

Mike (45:13.422)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah?

Mike (45:20.654)
We are. Uh huh.

Mike (45:27.822)
Well, we'll be right back after this word from our sponsor while I throw my Chromebook out the window.

Bill (45:43.048)
All right, everyone, welcome back and hey, we're still here. Haha. Throw your Chromebook out the window. Well, but you know, here's the thing and here's the fucked up part. And I, the, the only reason that it, that it could have become a problem is because, um, Riverside got better. Okay. Um, and what I mean is they got better and they have, they've had enhancements, they got all these different things. I've seen new buttons and new things that we can do.

Mike (45:46.574)
We are!

Well, apparently that's the fucking problem.

Mike (46:02.35)
Hmm.

Mike (46:05.774)
Right, right, right.

Bill (46:12.552)
And like, oh. Right. But I mean, all of these different things are adding, I think, because it's talking about, number one, having a certain amount of memory available to run. Also, having a certain amount of it's from the processor cores. So if there's any gear heads out there, it's a difference between having a two barrel and a four barrel carburetor. That's a difference in.

Mike (46:13.23)
Speaking of a word from our sponsor.

Mike (46:22.478)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (46:27.31)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (46:38.824)
Mike was running on a two -barrel carburetor and he needed a four -barrel carburetor, you know, and I think that Chris's, apparently Chris's computer is a four -barrel. Yeah.

Mike (46:48.334)
Yeah, I don't know right that's not very updated because I keep getting fucking pop -ups anyway Well, not just like shit popping up this needs to be updated this needs to be updated and it's actually in my head I'm glad it's not coming through your head because I'm being bong. I'm like, ah shit. What's that? Anyway?

Bill (46:53.96)
Oh, are you really?

Bill (46:58.664)
Oh.

Hahaha!

Bill (47:06.088)
Yeah, it was funny right before we started to I don't know right as I sent the link to you I looked down and I'm like computers like ready for a like update install I'm like I'm doing this fucking now, you know But you know in the thing what is that I turn my computer on, you know Pretty much early and I make sure I look and make sure everything's updated I do all this different stuff But I'm like motherfucker. I had to be on for a minute then it's like oh hi there We need to update you not now you don't motherfucker

Mike (47:15.886)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Bill (47:34.216)
But anyhow, so yeah, so I don't know, for whatever reason. And you know what, we'll figure out what to do going forward. But yeah, it is what it is and seems to be working so far. So I guess we're not gonna complain, right? All right. Much. But speaking of that, I am gonna complain about something, so fuck. It has nothing to do with us though. It's actually, I wanna be, you know, we talk about all the time and we joke and we're like, oh, we don't wanna be by other.

Mike (47:45.87)
Absolutely. Much.

Mike (47:54.478)
Alright.

Bill (48:01.96)
like other podcasts and blah, blah, blah, and kind of making a joke out of it. But I mean, we, we don't, you know, but we also kind of fuck around with it. But, um, I don't even know when it was three months ago, two months ago, we've said it a couple of times where, um, you know, podcasts, I'll always just this whole donation thing, you know, the buy me a coffee thing. And there was one podcast in particular where it popped up and, um, they're getting a lot of fucking donations. And I think I said that it doesn't matter. I'm not, I have no problem whatsoever. People want to give their money to them. I have no issue with that.

Mike (48:04.718)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (48:21.038)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (48:31.368)
more power to them. But what pissed me off about them is them saying that, you know, there's two hosts and they're like, oh yeah, this, this helps us, you know, continue to bring content to you. This is your donations of what run our podcast. And I'm like, okay. And then, you know, we talked about that. And then two other podcasts that I listened to, both of them are now doing the same thing, saying the same shit all the time. Now granted people say, if you want to donate, if you want to support the podcast and stuff like that, I, you know, in here's the thing to me, words fucking matter, you know,

Mike (48:31.886)
Mm -hmm. All right.

Mike (48:43.47)
Mmm.

Bill (49:01.192)
And if anyone out there wants to help support us for what we're doing, what we're bringing to you, that's perfectly fine. Do it because you want to support us. But if either one of us ever say that we need your donation to do this podcast, turn it off. I swear to God, don't listen to us anymore because I get so angry about that because here's the thing, and maybe this goes back to, and you said it before, it doesn't cost people any money to go to a

Mike (49:01.422)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (49:08.334)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Mike (49:15.182)
Right.

Hehehehehe

Bill (49:30.568)
help out and get back in a meeting and stuff like that. And the thing of it is, in my opinion, and I think I'm gonna speak for you here if it's okay for a minute, it's our opinion that if you need a donation to run a podcast, you shouldn't have one. If you need the donation, now, if people give it and donate to you, that's fine. Some podcasts say it does help to fray costs. It will, but we don't need it, okay?

Mike (49:32.11)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Mm -hmm. Go ahead.

Mike (49:46.19)
Mm. Right.

Mike (49:52.43)
Mm -hmm.

Sure. Sure. Now.

Bill (49:57.896)
I'm just getting so fucking irritated with people telling people to listen. If you listen, this is what helps us bring this. This is what helps bring us to you, this content every week. Fuck you. Work harder, get more listeners. Seriously, work harder, get more listeners, and then get people to fucking pay you. Get advertisers to pay you. That's the way, if you want to make money doing a podcast, that's how you make fucking money. Subscriptions, when podcasts have subscriptions, the Mark Barons of the world, these other big podcasts,

Mike (50:08.142)
Hmm. Right.

Mike (50:17.134)
Mm -hmm.

Right. Yeah.

Mike (50:26.99)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (50:27.592)
I don't begrudge Mark Merriford doing it. That dude's got a big fucking thing going on. Certain things are beyond a paywall. Yes. Yes. And you know, certain things I know, certain episodes are beyond a paywall for him, certain art. And that's cool. He's got a ton of fucking advertisers though too, so he makes money off of that.

Mike (50:31.278)
No. Yeah. Well, he's also been doing it for like 15 years. Right.

Mike (50:42.606)
Right. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's, he's, he's openly said it's a big part of his business. I mean, and he is an entertainer. That is his business. That is his job. You know, we're, we're just, you know, we're trying to fucking spread the word of, you know, this life is pretty fucking cool, you know, and we're going to continue to do that. That's, that's the mission statement of this, not to get fucking rich.

Bill (51:09.832)
Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, if Amazon comes knocking on the door with an 80 million dollar contract like they did with sparkless. Yeah, we're going to take the money. I mean, no doubt. I mean, I think we've been open enough about that. But here's the thing. I don't want to take it. I know Mike does it either. We don't want to take other people's money to run this fucking thing. You know, we've gotten some donations and for the people who've done it.

Mike (51:10.67)
You know, I mean, if it happened, I'm not going to turn it down, right? That's not what we're doing here.

Mmm.

Mm -hmm. Right.

Mike (51:28.366)
Sure.

Bill (51:38.44)
We we appreciated it what I would I both both of us would rather have you do if you want to give If you want to spend some money buy a fucking t -shirt buy a coffee mug gets get something from it number one We we have a very little profit margin so it's not about the money even with that stuff But if you want to give in with anything like that buy a fucking t -shirt again buy a mug buy a fucking bag of coffee buy a book You know take something home with you. It's you don't have to

Mike (51:46.67)
Mm -hmm. Right. Yeah.

Mike (51:54.734)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (51:59.278)
Right. Yeah. Yup. Yeah.

Hehehehehe

Bill (52:06.44)
We don't need your money, that's my point. And to part of it, I was like, fuck it, I'm just gonna take the link down for this Buy Me A Coffee shit, because I don't want any part of these fucking whores out there that are lying to people and telling them that they need the money. Because here's the other thing, these people are employed, they have jobs, right? And even if they weren't, if you need money to start a podcast, you shouldn't start a fucking podcast. That's fucking it.

Mike (52:15.31)
Mmm. Mmm.

Hehehehehe

Mike (52:24.718)
Right, I would hope.

Mike (52:29.582)
Hehehehe

Mike (52:33.71)
Right. Yeah, right. Exactly. Go to work and then, you know, do your little podcast on your own time. Yeah. Yeah. Like some idiots we know.

Bill (52:36.744)
Ugh, God, just, eh, it's just.

Right. And I've even, I wouldn't, right. And even a couple months ago, whenever it was, I told you guys, everyone out there that's listening, I told you what we spend every year. What did I say? Five or six, 700 bucks? A fucking year. I mean, that's it. You know, so it, if, believe me, if we couldn't afford it, we'll shut down the microphones before we're gonna try to beg for somebody to pay for this shit. So Eddie how? No.

Mike (52:54.19)
Right, right. Yeah. Right.

Hehehehehe

Mike (53:07.438)
Mm -hmm. We don't have to live that way today.

Bill (53:10.792)
We don't. And you know what? I'm gonna apologize a little bit, but it just fucking irritates me. Part of me didn't want to go off and I didn't want to bring it up and I'm like, fuck it. Because I want people to know that we don't want to be that way and we're not that way. And if you donate, we said it before, we'll donate the money to somebody else. I mean, we don't need it. I just want to make that very clear, both of us do. Just don't need your fucking money. No offense.

Mike (53:26.798)
Mm -mm. Well.

Mike (53:32.622)
Right.

Mike (53:38.094)
Right. Yeah. Yep. We will.

Bill (53:38.792)
Spend your money on something else. It's okay. We'll get by. We're gonna be okay. Right. Okay. So, where's the fucking Tylenol? God damn it. All right. So, how about some good stuff? Some good positives to us. Speaking of listeners, right? Okay. So, first of all, I got an email from Gary the other day. We all know Gary was on Mike. He's turned out to be, just he emails every once in a while. He's a good...

Mike (53:48.27)
Heheheheh

Mike (53:52.91)
Give me some good stuff.

Mm -hmm.

Mike (54:02.382)
Ah, yeah.

Bill (54:08.68)
He's turned out to be a friend without even knowing the dude. You know, I mean, we had him on and then I don't know, he emails. He's just a, he's a good fucking guy, you know? We actually should have him on again is what we should. So Gary, let us know what your schedule looks like. We'll have you on again at some point. Find out what you're up to. But sent me an email on my anniversary and congratulated me and said, happy anniversary, whatever it was through there, just nice. And then he, he's so funny. Hang on, you know what? I gotta, hold on one second. I gotta look this up.

Mike (54:08.846)
Nice.

Mike (54:12.334)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Mike (54:19.726)
Mmm. Mmm. Nice.

Mike (54:29.358)
Cool.

Bill (54:36.648)
So he was, first of all, he said that, he goes, I know it's your anniversary. He goes, I'm not quite sure when Mike's was, but I want to read the exact words because this fucking made me laugh. Okay, so, hang on one moment. Sorry about that. All right, so I'm happy a. Right.

Mike (54:36.654)
out.

Mike (54:47.566)
Yeah.

Mike (54:55.086)
Hmm. This is the professional stuff. Your money can buy.

Bill (54:59.976)
Right. And I knew I might talk about this and I didn't even see, I didn't even take the time to think about maybe pulling up Gary's email, but it said, oh, he said, I know Mike's anniversary is soon too, but I did not catch the date on the podcast and he is humble about it. And then he said, hi Mike and all capital letters. So.

Mike (55:07.854)
Right.

Mike (55:18.19)
It's the 22nd. It's the 22nd. It's the fucking 22nd. Mark it on your calendars. Light a candle.

Mike (55:29.678)
Hi, Gary.

Bill (55:29.928)
But I email it back and I told him what your what your anniversary was. So, you know, I'm guessing he who knows he may he may end up sending another another email. But I don't know. It was just first of all, it's Gary's just a fucking cool dude. And I mean, just we had a great conversation with him, but he just continues to be an active participant in this podcast, which is fun. And then speaking of, we got a message from and this is about our last episode. So there was a.

Mike (55:41.358)
Nice.

Mike (55:53.262)
Absolutely.

Bill (55:59.752)
Listener of ours. Her name is Shirley. I did not think I mentioned her name the last time but she she left a review the one time about One of us is more mature than other than the other one. Okay, so she sent us another message, but I'm gonna reread her Her review that she gave us because this was it was fun. This was back from oh shit Fuck almost a year ago may of 23 So her review this was not this one, but last year

Mike (56:02.926)
Okay. Yeah.

Mike (56:09.838)
Ah!

Mike (56:21.678)
Yeah. Yeah.

Bill (56:26.12)
While sampling the all you can eat buffet of sober podcasts out there, I stumbled upon this one. The name alone drew me in, but the two hosts, both longtime sober dudes, both immature, but one decidedly more immature than the other, kept me coming back for seconds and thirds. It's a balanced plate of serious recovery stuff, spiced with cussing, general slices of life, and stupid banter that makes me laugh out loud. I just keep coming back for more.

Mike (56:39.15)
Hehehehe

Bill (56:52.776)
I never know what they're going to say, what they're going to serve up next, but I know I'll learn something useful to keep me sober. Love you guys. So that was her review that she gave us like a year ago. And I, I pushed her for a couple of different times, trying to find out which one of us is supposedly more immature, but she wouldn't, she wouldn't give it up. So, um, I know it's kind of funny, keeps us guessing. So thank you, Shirley. But, um,

Mike (57:04.846)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (57:09.134)
Uh huh. Good.

Bill (57:17.864)
She left a comment on, it was one of the Monday or Tuesday, I think one of the posts I did for the episode clip. And she said, I love this one so much, meaning our last episode. Hearing how you've rebuilt the burnt bridges with family is inspiring. It's hard in most days, I lack the patience, but I just keep putting one hiking boot clad foot in front of the other, also in a hiking boot, I'm not a weirdo. Hearing how love is a part of recovery.

Mike (57:23.79)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (57:39.118)
Hehehehehe

Bill (57:47.048)
working on it, not being a four -letter word in my life, meaning love. So keep on hiking, brothers, from one of your anomalous listeners, female and ready to cash in on those discounts. I don't remember us talking about discounts, but apparently we did. I'll trust her memory more than mine or yours. But surely, and I told her, it was just a comment on, obviously, in the Instagram post, but I told her, I said, listen up, we're gonna talk about this. So thank you.

Mike (58:02.99)
Mmm.

Mike (58:14.478)
Mm -hmm. Yes.

Bill (58:14.76)
I just, I will thank, we'll both thank you out loud and on the podcast and we have nothing else. We have one female listener and that's Shirley. Okay. So Shirley, Shirley, you can't be serious, but, but anyhow, so, um, Shirley, do you have any female friends pass this along? Tell them to tell them to listen to this fucking nonsense.

Mike (58:22.862)
Right? Surely we have a, don't call me Shirley.

Don't call me Shirley. I am a don't call me Shirley.

Mike (58:40.11)
Right.

Bill (58:42.184)
gotta be somebody out there that thinks along the same lines as you do. Maybe not, that's fine, that's okay. But no, I just thought that it was nice. I post those episode clips, well, fucking every day. I mean, every day for two years and how many months and rarely, we don't get a lot of play on them. That's a weird way to say it. We don't get a lot of comments or activity on those particular posts, but every once in a while, somebody make a comment and...

Mike (58:42.99)
Yes.

Mike (59:07.822)
Mm hmm. Right.

Bill (59:11.912)
Just so you know, surely it means a lot, you know, to do that because it's the weirdest thing and I don't think about it all the time anymore. You know, but I mean, we're just, I'm sitting literally alone in a room and Mike's sitting alone in a room and we're just talking to, we do this, it just occurred to me. This is kind of how Mike and I pray. We don't know what we're praying to. We don't know why it works.

Mike (59:15.854)
It does.

Mike (59:30.19)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (59:38.126)
Right?

Bill (59:40.712)
But it does we have so we have no idea who we're talking to I see some numbers and we see some numbers that certain number of people were listening but I don't know we just you never know Just because somebody listens doesn't mean they're getting anything out of it. So my point is These comments mean a lot. They mean a whole fucking lot. So, thank you So there that's it. I have nothing I have nothing else. I think we're done. No That's another positive note for once right Oh

Mike (59:41.902)
Mm -hmm, right.

Mike (59:55.502)
Mm -hmm.

They do.

Mike (01:00:03.95)
Alright.

Right

Bill (01:00:09.544)
You want to hear a non sober story? I didn't get to this last week. I just think this will make you laugh, okay? All right, so there was this, again, the radio show that I listened to in the morning. There was a woman that actually got, she was sleeping at night and somebody broke into her home. So maybe this guy was on drugs. Let's make this a drug thing. So breaks into the house because he's got a drug habit.

Mike (01:00:16.046)
All right.

Mike (01:00:23.278)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (01:00:32.142)
Mmm.

Mmm.

Bill (01:00:38.984)
But anyhow, so goes in and apparently this this lady wakes up. It's got this guy over her, you know, like with a gun, right? And her mentally disabled son is in the house too. And this and that a guy's like, you know, screaming, yelling, trying to find out where whatever it is ties her to a chair. OK, so he's out rummaging through the house. Somehow, while she's tied to this chair, she either breaks my hand loose, whatever it is, but still tied to the chair. She gets back to her bed. She ends up having.

Mike (01:00:40.046)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (01:00:55.214)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:01:08.552)
a gun like under her mattress. So grabs the gun, right? The guy comes back into the room. She starts fucking shooting. The guy starts fucking shooting back. Okay. So first of all, she killed the guy, right? Um, but she also took four shots herself. Leg, arm, stomach and chest. Okay. Now here's the kicker. She's fucking 85.

Mike (01:01:11.438)
Hmm.

Mike (01:01:19.47)
Mm.

Mm -hmm.

Mike (01:01:28.75)
Hmm.

Mike (01:01:35.917)
Wow.

Bill (01:01:38.664)
And I'm like, fuck if that happened to me, you might as well just kill me. Cause two things, I don't have a gun and I don't know if I have the wherewithal to take four fucking shots. But she took, I mean, yeah, again, and I wrote this down when they were doing it, leg, arm, stomach and chest. Yeah, stomach and chest, take it, fuck leg and the arm, stomach and chest, those are kill shots, you know, either one of those. She's fucking 85.

Mike (01:01:43.854)
Yeah, right. Right.

Mike (01:01:51.214)
Wow.

Mike (01:01:58.318)
Damn.

Mike (01:02:03.95)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:02:08.232)
And I'm like, yeah, I just, when I wrote that, I'm like, I'm like, I am such a fucking lazy piece of shit. And I'm like, I get this fucking fucking 85 year old woman. Not only does she have, again, tied up gun shot, killed the dude and took the return. I'm like, fuck. It's I mean, part of that should be motivated, but I'm like, no, number one, it's funny because she's 85. And that's why they did the same thing. The story.

Mike (01:02:08.654)
Wow.

Mike (01:02:14.19)
Yeah

Mike (01:02:28.59)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:02:36.52)
Story did the same thing, went through the whole thing and then said how old she was. So I wanted to save that because you never in your life would expect a fucking 85 year old. But yeah, I get nothing, man. I mean, there's just no way.

Mike (01:02:40.686)
Right.

Mike (01:02:46.958)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (01:02:50.638)
Right. Yeah. Just, yeah. Well, exactly. Right. So I think the moral of the story is you take a look at me and you go, I'm not going to fuck with him, but there's this little old lady over there. I'm going to go fuck with her. Don't fuck with anybody.

Bill (01:02:51.976)
You

Bill (01:03:03.304)
Right? Yeah. Man, those are the ones. Yeah, it's the fucking 85 year old lady that has a God only knows what type of gun she had. Didn't even matter, man. Whatever gun she had, you know, it was enough to kill his ass. It just made me laugh. But I'm like, you fucking go, you old bitch. You fucking old bitch. You just you fucking didn't take no shit. I'm getting my gun and I'm going to kill you.

Mike (01:03:16.27)
Mmm.

Hehehehehe

Mike (01:03:26.958)
That's right.

Bill (01:03:33.288)
I didn't even, I don't even, maybe that was Texas. I don't even remember what state it was in. It does, yeah, that's how they think about it. I didn't even know. I didn't even get that part, but anyhow, more power to you. That was it. It's inspirational of nothing else. And I just realized that somebody breaks in any place I live, I'm going to die. That's it. So, yeah. All right. So back to, let's get back to some sober stuff. What do you think? Huh? All right. So this was from, keep it simple.

Mike (01:03:38.766)
Well, I'm sure it was.

Mike (01:03:48.014)
Absolutely.

Right.

Mike (01:03:59.758)
Sure.

Bill (01:04:02.664)
It said, we can't be kind, I think this was from this week. We can't be kind and loving to others until we learn to be kind and loving with ourselves. It was talking about actually, the reading was talking about actually speaking to ourselves in a kind voice and treating ourselves well. So let's take, that's more of the touchy feely side of things, you know, obviously, but okay. So the, but the first part though, you know, how do you feel about that? You know,

Mike (01:04:21.902)
No.

Mm -hmm. Yeah, I remember reading that one, sort of.

Bill (01:04:31.144)
We can't be kind and loving to others until we learn to be kind and loving with ourselves. Let's start with that part. I know it's all kind of touchy feely, but.

Mike (01:04:37.614)
Right, right.

Mike (01:04:48.27)
I mean, it's all sort of wrapped together. But I mean, the way we were taught and the way it worked for me was I needed to start being kind to other people first before I could truly, it all comes down to the worth, the self -worth. I'm worthless unless I have worth to someone else. And I think it works the same way with that.

I can't be kind to myself unless I'm being kind to other people. If I'm a piece of shit to everybody around me, but I'm being good to myself, our perception's all fucked up, especially early on, because we thought we were being good to ourselves. We thought we were taking care of ourselves. We were making ourselves feel good, right? That's what getting loaded's all about. So yeah, I mean, it's...

I understand the concept, but I need to, I need to start working on early in sobriety. And now, um, I've got to be kind to other people in order to be kind to myself, because again, if I, if I don't have any worth to anyone else, then I'm fucking worthless. And how can I love myself and be good to myself if I don't have any fucking worth, you know, I, I'm, I,

You know, somewhere in there, I don't want to fucking waste my time on garbage. And if I'm garbage, why would I waste time on myself? So if I'm being good to other people that I'm not garbage, and then I can be good to myself. Does that make sense?

Bill (01:06:36.52)
Yeah, I mean it does. And you know, when I first read it, and I wasn't thinking it, I agree with you because we talked about that too, you know, acting our way into better thinking, you know, which I agree with that wholeheartedly. And I didn't, what I first, I think when I read this, I thought of it more as forgiving myself, you know, because I had to forgive myself before I could, you know, sometimes be forgiven by other people because if I was kind of beating myself up still, how could I even?

Mike (01:06:44.878)
Mm -hmm. Right. Yeah.

Mike (01:06:57.902)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:07:05.96)
take forgiveness, but you're right. I mean, I...

Mike (01:07:06.158)
Sure.

Mike (01:07:10.062)
And again, if you're wasting your time, beating yourself up over what a piece of shit you were, instead of stop being a piece of shit and going out and being a good person. Yeah. Then you're wasting your time on the wrong thing. You need to use your time to make yourself better and the easiest and quickest. You guys want shortcuts and the way to get there quickly is to do things for other people.

Bill (01:07:18.248)
Right?

Bill (01:07:33.832)
Right. Yeah, I like that because I think that's a better way, that's a far better way to look at it really. And that's why when I wrote that down, I mean, again, it was kind of the touchy feely, you know, talking to ourselves in kind voice and blah, blah, blah. Right.

Mike (01:07:42.734)
Mmm.

Mike (01:07:47.79)
Yeah. And that's why that touchy feely shit doesn't work for me. Right. And I'm going to focus on myself. I'm going to stand in front of the mirror, Stuart Smalley and fucking, you know, I'm good enough and I'm smart enough. Don't stand in front of the fucking mirror. Go out there and do something. Be good enough. Be smart enough. And then people will fucking like you.

Bill (01:07:55.08)
Heheheheh

Bill (01:08:05.736)
Right. Yeah. And really it's, I mean, like we were just talking about, you know, we were forced to set up at meetings and hang out at meetings and do all those sort of stuff. And,

Mike (01:08:16.334)
Yeah! Shake hands, smile, make somebody else feel welcome even when we're fucking uncomfortable and don't want to goddamn be there in the first place. Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:08:24.168)
Right. And there, and I can say this, I'm not an always or never type of person, but I've never walked out of a meeting in a worse mood than I have when I walked in, you know, I've always walked in with a, with a better mindset of nothing else. And, and I've been to a couple of meetings where they just drone on and stuff like that, but still, but I mean, I still didn't walk out, you know, like in all fucked up. Usually I got nine times out of 10, I got myself fixed in one way, shape or form.

Mike (01:08:36.526)
Right.

Mike (01:08:44.334)
Oh yeah.

Bill (01:08:53.736)
And it's crazy, it's amazing when you walk into a meeting and you're like, really, they're talking about that. Or when we wake up one morning, any of these mornings and we read something, we're like, well, fuck, I needed that, that type of thing. And even this thing that we do, we've talked about it plenty of times. Both of us work. My days are longer and busier than they used to be. And I'm busier, more occupied at this particular job than I have been.

Mike (01:08:54.222)
Right?

Mike (01:09:00.654)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (01:09:06.19)
Right.

Bill (01:09:20.84)
in a job in years, you know, just, I'm just, I'm on and I'm talking all day and I got to get on here for an hour and a half and talk, which is, which is fine because I don't, I never walk away from this. Right. But I, but I never walk away from this in a, in a worst mood. We've gotten frustrated by some of the technology stuff and I'm not in a bad mood about it. I just, I care about this and you care about it, you know, that we don't want to have to deal with this technology garbage, you know.

Mike (01:09:23.566)
Right. Mm -hmm. Right.

Mike (01:09:33.55)
you never stop talking. Right.

Mike (01:09:46.35)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:09:49.672)
But yeah, that's a great way to put it. So yeah, so fuck the touchy feely, right? Is that kind of our mindset? Fuck the touchy feely.

Mike (01:09:55.502)
Yep. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Stop standing in front of the mirror and loving yourself and get out there and do something for somebody else. How do I fucking finish these things every week?

Bill (01:10:05.832)
Right? Yeah, I mean, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Well, good. I'm actually glad I wrote that one down because, I don't know, just again, it said, some of these things, when I write them down, I don't know what's going through my, like you said, maybe I wasn't awake. Because these are all first thing in the morning. These are within the first fucking half hour when I've gotten up, you know? So.

Mike (01:10:13.934)
Yeah!

Mike (01:10:21.614)
Right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, me too.

Hmm. Right. And for me, shit, 10 minutes after my alarm goes off, I'm reading my books. Yeah.

Bill (01:10:31.368)
Right? Yeah, in mine, usually it's by the time I brush my teeth, put my contacts in, get my coffee, I've been up for 20 minutes by the time I sit down. It's every fucking morning. I'm 20 minutes awake, only a few sips of coffee in to my day, but sitting down wherever I need to be sitting down, reading whatever I need to be reading. So, I don't know if we talked about this one, but I'll just start reading it if it seems. It's from God Grant Me, but.

Mike (01:10:48.942)
Right.

Mike (01:10:54.83)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:11:01.736)
It said, guilt can be good. It tells us that we may be acting in a way that betrays our values. Did we, did we read this one?

Mike (01:11:09.485)
Yeah, it's the guilt versus shame thing, right?

Bill (01:11:12.744)
Yes, as guilt asks that we keep our behaviors in line, shame on the other hand tells us, okay, yeah, so you don't, okay. Well, fuck, what the fuck?

Mike (01:11:17.838)
Yeah, I read that one. Yeah. So if you want to hear more about this, go back and listen to some other episode. We don't know which one.

Bill (01:11:24.872)
Yeah, it's just as I Well in so many of these readings have the same you know They're everything's along the same kind of lines and but yeah as soon as I started to read I was kind of glancing it before I was gonna read it out loud I'm like, I think we actually read that one before but Yeah, I exactly think so All right. So I have no idea where this one came from, but this could be a task Today, I will practice being kind. That's not the part we could practice being kind. We talked about that. I

Mike (01:11:33.358)
Well, yeah. Right.

Mike (01:11:41.422)
We did. We used that one as a reading. Yup.

Bill (01:11:54.504)
I will say hello to at least five people while I look them in the eyes and smile. I will notice what happens when I do this, okay? So two things. You kind of like keeping yourself and all that stuff with the way that I, especially with the way that I work now, even when I was at Cathy's, I don't think I encounter five people in a day, you know? But here's the thing, I mean, on the phone, I say hi to probably,

Mike (01:11:55.15)
Right?

Mike (01:12:19.47)
night.

Bill (01:12:23.464)
70 people a day that doesn't count, you know, cuz I can't look them in the eyes blah blah blah, but would that be First of all, do you think that would feel like a chore for you to try to do that? And then like not just say, you know, hey give him a give him a head bob or something like that Like actually look look them in the eyes and smile when you what you do that I'll tell you why I'm laughing here in a minute, but

Mike (01:12:26.286)
Right? Yeah. Uh huh.

Mike (01:12:45.326)
Hmm. I mean, you know, again, practice these things. Right. Yeah, I still do. Yeah, I have to sometimes take that extra beat and, you know, and engage the other person because I don't fucking care. I'm going through my day. I'm doing my shit, whatever, you know, self involved and I don't give a shit. But yes, I.

Bill (01:12:51.4)
Right.

Bill (01:13:04.904)
Hehehehe

Mike (01:13:12.782)
I've read that one several times and yes, that is one thing that I do. Whatever. I go into the truck stop to buy a pack of cigarettes or something. Yeah, the person behind the counter, I will look them in the eye and I'll say, how you doing? And kind of mean it. And they're getting it from everybody constantly. I know I'm not gonna get into some deep conversation with this person, but I'm gonna try to...

Bill (01:13:33.864)
Hahaha.

Mike (01:13:41.742)
I'm going to, I do try to make those, you know, whatever 10, 15 seconds that they've got to interact with me 10 or 15 seconds of their day. That is not horrible. You know, that's all I can fucking do, man. Um, yeah. Cause I'm, you know, people, I see it. People go in and they're bitching and complaining about whatever the fuck, you know, the, the pumps not working right. Or they need a fucking receder or blah, blah, blah. Boo, boo, boo.

Bill (01:14:10.216)
Hehehehe

Mike (01:14:11.278)
Um, yeah, you know, I, I'm going to stand there and make the little interaction I have with these people as pleasant as I can. And yeah, that was again, not my nature and not what I want to fucking do, but I do it because I know that's the next right thing to do.

Bill (01:14:28.392)
Right. Yeah, and that's a good point, too, because with, you know, if I go out to, you know, like anything, I would go to lunch at the firehouse or, like you said, go to a gas station or, you know, especially with all this like travel and stuff like that. I mean, it's certainly stopping at plenty of gas stations. But same deal. You know, hey, how are you? You know, have a nice day. And, you know, thank you. You know, please. Thank you. And all the sort of things. And in general, the the masses of people, you know, that are that are.

Mike (01:14:39.79)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (01:14:44.43)
Right?

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah.

Bill (01:14:55.656)
walking in and out around me I don't want to have anything to do with, you know, for the most part, you know. But yeah, I mean, for the people who are actually working and doing their jobs and all those sort of things. And it's funny, I stopped at, where the fuck was I? Was I here? I don't know. I think I was here. I drove someplace because I wanted to go see this area just outside of where I'm at now. And so I went up to this town half hour, 40 minutes away.

Mike (01:14:59.95)
Mm -hmm. Right. Yeah.

Bill (01:15:21.929)
grabs up the, then I ended up stopping at a Starbucks to get a cup of coffee. And I walk in and there's like fucking nobody in there. It's, it was a Sunday, I think, Saturday, I don't know, whatever day. And, you know, basically I'm like, okay, that's what I want. I get basic coffee, you know, it's a medium, medium roast. I get a little pump of caramel syrup. I like that, that's it. She looks behind her, she's like, we're out of that type of coffee, whatever it was.

Mike (01:15:26.83)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (01:15:32.718)
Well...

Bill (01:15:48.264)
Like anything I said, I don't necessarily need the medium roast. That's usually like whatever, whatever Starbucks calls. I know what it is. It doesn't matter. Um, she's like, no, we stopped brewing that at this time. And my first thought in my head was, are you fucking kidding me? You're a fucking, you're a fucking coffee shop. But she's like, you know, so that particular kind of, and she's like, well, I can do one of two things. I could brew this and I'd be like five or 10 minutes in my head. I'm just like, but I'm like, you know what? I don't have any place to be. And I said, um,

Mike (01:15:49.294)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (01:16:01.678)
Right what else are you fucking doing here?

Bill (01:16:16.264)
She's like, or you can take what's left in there. I'm like, yeah. I said, I'll go ahead and wait. She's like, oh, or I have this other one where I could do this. I could dump this over. She's like, I could make it. And I've heard of it before, but I didn't know what this is, you know, make it this way. And basically it's a pour over type of coffee. Um, and I understand, but I'm like, I'm like, eh, I said, no, I said, how long will the other one take it? She's like, or, but I could do this. I know I just do the other one. She's, you don't want the pour over one. She's like, I feel like I'm confusing. I'm like, you are, but that's okay.

Mike (01:16:28.878)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (01:16:32.974)
Right?

Mike (01:16:46.382)
I'm easily confused, it's fine.

Bill (01:16:46.504)
And she just laughed and I, yeah. But I'm like, no, I said, I said, seriously, you are confusing me and it's okay. I said, I'll wait the five or 10 minutes. I'm good. She's like, okay. And I said, thank you. You know, but, but part of me, my first thought was literally you're a fucking coffee shop. Okay. And I mean, so in my head, I'm like, so you make a pot of coffee and you throw it out. You charge me, you charge me $4 for a cup. Even if you had, you know, eight cups of coffee, if you had 10 or 12 cups of coffee in there.

Mike (01:16:57.71)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:17:15.88)
They're making $50 a pot. There's, you know, $4 a product in there. You're fine. You can throw it out. All these things are spinning through my head, but I'm like, I'll wait the five or 10 minutes. I'm good. Cause I'm like, I'm not the, I don't, she doesn't need my shit, you know? And, but you know, it's, it's one of those things where, and this is the part of, you know, kind of like what you said, you know, the, um, people are walking in, they want to receive, they want this, the pump's not working because people have this expectation.

Mike (01:17:25.038)
Aha.

Mike (01:17:33.454)
Right. Yeah.

Mike (01:17:44.974)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:17:45.768)
when they go to a gas station that they can get gas, they want a receipt, they can get a receipt. I go to a coffee shop, I just want a fucking cup of coffee. But it's entitlement, right? And that's the problem, right?

Mike (01:17:49.742)
Right. Right.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Right. Expectations and resentments waiting to happen.

Bill (01:18:02.216)
Thank you. I couldn't think. I was thinking that in my head. I'm like, what the fuck am I? What is that thing? There you go. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (01:18:09.582)
Right. Yeah, exactly. No, I'm not entitled to shit. You know, I mean, you know, clearly if I'm paying for a service, I expect a certain amount of, but you know, but if it doesn't happen, what my world's going to fucking crumble around me. No, it's, it's a cup of coffee. It's a fucking pack of smokes. It's, you know, a burger. It's whatever, you know, settle down. None of it's that fucking important. And I'm certainly not that fucking important.

Bill (01:18:33.448)
Right. Yeah, and it's just, it is, it's, you know, it's, it's hard sometimes, you know, not to, not to let, um, again, you know, these, these expectations, right. You turn into resentments and there's, there's a hundred things in a day that can fucking piss me off, especially if I have to be out in the people world, you know, um, just little thing. It doesn't even matter what it is, just like anything, you know, but it is, it's that expectation that.

Mike (01:18:47.597)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (01:18:56.078)
Right.

Mm -hmm. Right.

Bill (01:19:01.864)
Well, this should happen this way and it didn't so I'm gonna get fucking pissed but I mean, right.

Mike (01:19:06.67)
Right. Again, control issues, you know, right. You know, I want this to happen this way. This is the way it's supposed to happen. No, man. It's going to happen the way it fucking happens. And, you know, or it might not happen. Ooh. Okay. And then what now, what are you going to do? You're going to fucking roll around on the floor and fucking cry like a baby. Are you going to stand there and go, well, I guess this isn't working out the way I thought it was going to work out. All right. Then.

Bill (01:19:27.112)
Yeah, well, I guess this is the way it's going to work out then.

Mike (01:19:33.23)
I guess this is the way it's going to be. And in the meantime, I'm not going to make everybody around me fucking miserable. Cause it didn't go my goddamn way. Yep.

Bill (01:19:39.016)
Right. Yeah, because the same thing, you know, that the nice, the nice smiley person, you know, behind the counter at Starbucks and she was very kind. You know, she was giving me the facts. She wasn't a dick about it. I've been plenty. I've been plenty of places, you know, when people when people are dicks about it and, you know, but still then I tried not to. That's even harder to not be a dick when they're being a dick. But you want to outdick the dick. All right. All right.

Mike (01:19:45.518)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (01:19:49.166)
Sure. Yeah. Right.

Mike (01:19:55.022)
Right?

Mike (01:19:58.766)
Mm. Right. Right. Yes. Right. I will win. But, right. You also don't know, she could have been dealing with, you know, 14 dicks before you. Maybe even bigger dicks than us. I know that's tough to believe folks, but there are people out there that are bigger assholes than we are.

Bill (01:20:14.184)
Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, just every once in a while, it's, you know, it's best, not even every once in a while, it is best to be the best type of person you could be. Because again, like you said, you have no idea what people are dealing with. You know, same thing. People don't know what we're dealing with, but we can't control them. But we can control how we treat these, you know, these kind folks that are out there working their asses off, you know. So yeah. So what else?

Mike (01:20:31.31)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (01:20:40.11)
Right.

Bill (01:20:42.152)
I'm gonna be in Cleveland tomorrow after an 11 or 12 hour drive. It's funny, it's funny even the 10th time. It doesn't ever get old. But I just keep reminding you that you invited me to stay because I don't have to. I know, I know.

Mike (01:20:45.518)
Yes, you are. Where you staying?

Mike (01:20:55.246)
Right, I know. It never gets old.

Mike (01:21:04.622)
I know I gave you a goddamn key man. Jesus Christ. What am I going to do? I can get my gun out of my mattress and.

Bill (01:21:10.92)
Right? Yeah. If I could shoot me as I walk in, I wouldn't even have the desire, I was gonna say the strength. I wouldn't even have the fucking wherewithal to try to tie somebody up these days. I'm like, ah, fuck. I'm not gonna break in, because I know I'm gonna have to tie somebody up. Well, that's a different story, because then the person's least is gonna lay there and he got something nice to look at, hopefully, while you're tying him up. But, you know.

Mike (01:21:16.398)
Right!

Mike (01:21:24.974)
No.

Mike (01:21:30.734)
unless they want me to.

Bill (01:21:39.208)
if everyone understands what we're talking about, you know? Eh, eh? Eh? Yeah. But so yeah, I mean, next weekend, Mike's anniversary is on Monday. It's not fronting. It is what it is. You know, I don't know if he...

Mike (01:21:43.822)
Uh -huh. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

Mike (01:21:51.47)
Yep. Well, that is my anniversary of my sober date. Whether I make it there or not, I haven't done it yet, but right.

Bill (01:21:55.656)
Yes. Great point. Great point. But, um, um, Mike has given me permission. I don't remember if we talked about this in last week podcast, but apparently, um, not only I'm allowed to announce my anniversary at his home group this week, I didn't think I was allowed to until he told me that it was okay for me to do that. So, do you remember that conversation we were having? He's like, well, you're allowed to do it at my home group. We're like, really?

Mike (01:22:15.406)
Yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah it was

Bill (01:22:23.656)
I think that was Easter when we were talking. But yeah, so anyhow, I've gotten permission from my friend Mike, so I'm going to announce. But no, so.

Mike (01:22:33.07)
Right, because you know, no, we do not govern. I am a humble servant. You can do whatever the fuck he wants at my meeting.

Bill (01:22:36.776)
Right, but that's why I just made a point about it. I thought it was fun. But yeah, so next week is going to be our anniversary episode. And I don't know, we never really have anything planned. I don't know what the fuck we'll talk about. But well, anytime. I have notes. Everyone knows I have fucking notes. But especially for something like an anniversary episode, I don't know. We'll just talk about how fucking great we are, I think is probably what. Right. Yeah. All right.

Mike (01:22:49.038)
Mm -hmm.

Of course not.

Mike (01:22:57.07)
Alright.

Mike (01:23:03.63)
Right. Usual shit. You know, I'm expecting a balloon from Gary, but other than that, I have no idea what's going to happen. Right.

Bill (01:23:10.248)
Right, Gary, send us a gift, surely. We need another comment, we need something to talk about. Come on, guys, if I could do your part, man, what the fuck? All right, but no, seriously, and I'll say, obviously, thank you again. Gary, thank you, Shirley, thank you. And we realize there's other people out there that is giving us reviews and, yeah, we do, absolutely. It just, it's...

Mike (01:23:25.742)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (01:23:29.614)
All right. Even you passive listeners, we, we appreciate you too.

Bill (01:23:36.168)
little little comments like that they they really mean they mean a lot it's I can't I can't even explain I feel like a little kid sometimes when I when I read these and when when I get them I put them I put them down and I I look forward over everything else to reading these on here you know because I don't share any of this shit with Mike and we stopped we barely we try not to have conversations we don't really have like not that we don't but there's certain things that we've been in person we're like I can't talk about this we're gonna talk about it on Friday.

Mike (01:23:44.782)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (01:23:59.022)
Right.

Bill (01:24:05.672)
You know, and literally we'll cut off conversations with each other. But so, yeah, yeah, so these things, and Mike's not on Instagram, so I know we wouldn't see it. You know, so I'm like, I look forward to sharing these things. I don't know, it just, it's wonderful. It's nice. It's, I don't know how else to put it. So it is what it is. It's great. We do, we appreciate you appreciating us. Hey, all the appreciations on this side of the table.

Mike (01:24:06.862)
Right.

Mike (01:24:10.702)
Save it for the show.

Mike (01:24:16.43)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (01:24:24.174)
Right. We appreciate you appreciating us.

Mike (01:24:31.598)
Hey, that's right.

Bill (01:24:33.128)
And with that, you know what? Let's get the fuck out of here. What do you think?

Mike (01:24:38.542)
Let's do it, man. All right. Well, thank you, everyone. We appreciate you listening to another episode of sober, not mature. It's always be kind to each other. Be good to each other. Smile at that person at the store. Do something nice for somebody else this week and don't tell anybody you did it. Now it's time, kids. It is that time. It is time for you to fuck off. Then keep fucking off. Keep fucking off till you get to a gate with a sign on it saying you cannot fuck off past here.

Climb over that gate, dream the impossible dream, and keep fucking off forever.

Bill (01:25:14.024)
You know what? It's kind of weird that I'm waiting for delays and all that shit. It's amazing. It is amazing how used to fucking garbage that you get out how.

Mike (01:25:21.198)
I know!

Mike (01:25:25.646)
you get comfortable sitting in your own shit? Is that what you're trying to say?

Bill (01:25:31.24)
Yeah. And I mean, you know, it's, it's not as though we didn't try to fix it along the way. We didn't just let it be. Um, but it's no matter what we did, it's just like a fuck me, you know? But, um, yeah, number one, it was, it was a full run, you know, I mean, we had a full episode, no, no stopping, no breaks, no nothing. Like I said, one little, you know, time when your personality came out, you were bubbly. And literally like it, like I said, what it sounded like, um, is just like.

Mike (01:25:37.006)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Mike (01:25:51.374)
Well.

Mike (01:25:55.374)
Hehehehehe

Bill (01:26:00.2)
underwater for a minute, just bubble. I could hear you. You know, same thing. It'll, it'll sound perfect on the recording. I know that won't be a problem, but, um, so nobody else is going to hear it, but that's, that's actually gotta be the funniest part when people are listening to this going, I didn't fucking hear a thing. But the delay we couldn't stack that we can hide. So, all right, man. Um, I think we're fucking done. So, um, I love you brother. And I will talk, not only I'm going to see you tomorrow. Well,

Mike (01:26:02.798)
Mm, all right.

Mike (01:26:16.142)
Right.

Mike (01:26:20.622)
Yes.

I think we are. I love you too.

Mike (01:26:29.615)
You're gonna sleep in my fucking house tomorrow. All right, love you too, drive safe, bye.

Bill (01:26:31.144)
Exactly. All right, man. I love you brother. Bye. I will