SoberNotMature - Episode 114 (Dopeless Hope Fiends)

Bill (00:02.286)
All right everyone, welcome once again to another episode of Sober Not Mature, live from the land of Cleve. Yep, we're both under the same roof, literally. Again, if, uh, sure if we both turned around and opened the doors and didn't have any walls in the way, we're within spitting distance again, right? Yeah, we'll get to that in a minute, but before we continue and get off with all this fucking nonsense, um, is there anyone?

Mike (00:11.502)
That's right.

Mike (00:22.094)
Something like that.

Bill (00:30.626)
possibly in the area that is celebrating the anniversary of a year or more.

Mike (00:31.234)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (00:36.574)
Hi, my name is Mike and I'm an alcoholic and I had 14 years on Monday.

Bill (00:41.366)
Woohoo! There you get the clap. How's that? And like I told you on Monday, not a goddamn way you'll make 15, not a chance. Yeah, and I think that we talked about that the one time, the short story is that was just the, well, as Mike always says, how do you get an alcoholic to do something, right? Yeah, and that was our home group that we used to go to. That was one of the things they said, which we started demanding every year after we...

Mike (00:51.374)
That's right.

Mike (01:01.902)
telling me can't.

Bill (01:10.858)
realized what they were doing because number one, it worked well with our despite aspect that we live by, but on top of it, it was just, it's just a, I don't know, it's almost a, I don't know, a nice sign of respect almost, which it doesn't seem like it should be, but it is, you know.

Mike (01:16.046)
Absolutely.

Mike (01:26.51)
Absolutely is. Yep, exactly. Challenge me, make me do something I don't wanna do.

Bill (01:28.139)
Yeah, so.

Bill (01:33.383)
Exactly. Yeah, fuck you motherfuckers. I'm gonna do just get a gift 15. I'll probably try to get more than that

Mike (01:39.362)
I will. Yep. I'm well, you know, but technically I'm just trying to get today. But yes.

Bill (01:43.774)
Right. Yes. Yeah. Because, you know, we live by one day. Boo, boo, boo. Fucking one day at a time. Whatever. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, of course. But yeah, so as of Monday, you know, all is right in our little sober world because, you know, I kept the seat warm for you. Hopefully it's nice and warm while you're sitting in there because, you know, I had to keep that warmed up for you for a few days before you got here, but welcome. I'm glad you're here.

Mike (02:10.358)
Whatever, man.

Bill (02:13.642)
That's it. It's for another 361 days or something like that. Yeah, somewhere in that area that then you'll have to hear about it again. Although, quite honestly, you brought it up more this year than I did. So.

Mike (02:18.446)
Sounds about right.

Mike (02:26.702)
Right. Yeah. You know, I mean, you know, I it's thinking of others, right? Well, I try to make you feel good. That's right, Quince. He's got four more days than I do.

Bill (02:32.747)
Hahaha!

Bill (02:39.578)
Right, which, you know, I didn't want necessarily four more days. I didn't want any more days than him. I didn't plan on it. I didn't think that, you know, I'm probably going to meet some motherfucker one day and I'm going to be able to rub it in his face because we're going to end up being like lifelong friends and actually family. And yeah, I can, I can use this. I wouldn't have been able to plan. I would have fucked this up if I would have, if I would have tried to play at it, you know? But but yeah, so we're both in Cleveland. I actually got here.

Mike (02:43.726)
Hehehehe. Mmhmm.

Mike (02:54.443)
Uh-huh.

Mike (03:01.147)
That's right.

Bill (03:06.89)
So another wonderful thing again with my job, I'd mentioned before I get to travel around. And we had this planned. We always do this anniversary weekend after both of us get our anniversaries and we'll get together. And just as it all turned out, it would have been, I can really only travel on the weekends if we wanna go to the casino and stuff and do the buffet tomorrow and blah, blah. So yeah, I got here last Saturday and worked here all week and no issues with my work situation, it was great.

And, you know, I thought about it the other day and this is literally the most time that you and I have spent together in 11 years. You know, yeah, and it was just kind of funny. It's almost the same way as it used to be with the exception of I didn't have to leave for work. But, you know, I mean, we're both getting up at the same time. You're doing your thing. You're running off here, going there, you know, getting home. I mean, I think we coexisted okay. You know, we didn't have any issues or anything, you know.

Mike (03:44.51)
Yeah, right. Yeah, since we lived together.

Mike (04:03.626)
Yeah, yeah, you know, I mean, you know, anything's better than a bedroom in a, in a three quarter house in Brooklyn, Ohio. So yes, we can handle it.

Bill (04:05.707)
Which

Bill (04:13.686)
Right. Yeah, exactly. But that's the thing that got that three quarter house. Man, trying to coordinate timing and stuff like that, you know, with all the people. But, you know, we can take a little rundown memory lane here a little bit. But again, before we get off on too much of a fucking random tangent, as always, what do you say, Mike? Should we start off this 15th year for both of us and do a reading?

Mike (04:40.106)
Let's do that. Let's put some good thoughts in our head and roll them around a little bit. And actually, you'll probably recognize this one because it's today's. Yeah, right. April 26th, man. Although you're listening to it on April 27th or later. But today in actual reality, it's April 26th and read it this morning and went, yeah, it's a good one. Let's do this. So.

Bill (04:41.186)
Hahaha

Bill (04:45.322)
Yes.

Bill (04:52.576)
Huh, nice.

Bill (04:59.863)
Hehehehe

Mike (05:09.694)
Speaking of controlling things and trying to set things up. That's what it's about here. All right, April 26th. My dependency meant demand, a demand for the possession and control of the people and the conditions surrounding me. Some guy named Bill Wilson said that. All right, as our addiction increased its control over us, we began trying to control everything and everyone around us, like an animal caught in a trap.

chewing off its own leg in an attempt to be free. It was an indication of our ever increasing sense of powerlessness. Little did we know that surrender was the way out of this trap. We had to surrender to the reality of our illness, surrender to our higher power, surrender to a program, surrender to the steps of recovery. Control is an illusion. Surrender asks us to face reality and use our energies more wisely.

Do we still believe in the illusion of control? Prayer for the day, higher power. Today I surrender myself into your loving arms. Help me to turn to you and others whenever I want to control life and others. Teach me to follow your rhythm, not mine. Today's action, oh those pesky actions. I will reflect on yesterday. How did I try to control others?

I will ask myself, what could I have done differently? What was I afraid of?

Bill (06:43.154)
Ooh, there's that whole fear thing again, right? Well, and I guess to begin with, I do remember reading that. I always like that reading every year about, you know, the animal stuck in a trap trying to chew its own leg off. I mean, it's, again, I'm a visual person, man, and I'm like, well, yeah, that about sums that shit up, right? But yeah, the fear thing, and that is, it's the, and we've talked about this.

Mike (06:45.61)
Uh-huh.

Mike (06:57.41)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (07:10.742)
many times about many different things and really trying to narrow it down. And sometimes it's almost a, I don't know, an epiphany of sorts or just kind of a light bulb moment for me to think that, God damn, there was, there was fear behind whatever this thing was. But yeah, I mean, fear, it's a son of a bitch, even if we're, regardless of what's going on, whether it's anger or again, control or anything like that. I mean, clearly it's, we've...

pretty much figured out that a lot of that's fear-based, right?

Mike (07:41.234)
Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, 90 some percent of it, right. All of our, yeah, you know, I mean, the root of our troubles is selfishness and self centeredness, but, um, the root of our emotions and feelings and all that garbage is a fear most of the time. Absolutely.

Bill (08:02.89)
Right. And I mean, a couple of things I wrote down, the first part of it just talked about demand. Obviously, you know, we demand is a huge part of that, of all this everything. Try to control everything, powerlessness, and then talk right into, start talking about surrender, and then control is an illusion. And then the last line I'll talk about in a minute, or the last thing I wrote down, I'll talk about it in a minute, because I, when I read that, I don't remember if I, if I put this down or not, but anyhow, it'll be a good conversation piece.

Mike (08:19.054)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (08:32.918)
But so trying to control everything, I mean, clearly, I know I did obviously before I quit drinking and I still do, you know, I still, okay, let me take that back. I don't try to control everything, but it's hard for me not to try to control some things and in some cases, many things. Because, you know, I have no patience, I want shit to happen, all these different things. I want things to happen a certain way. As human beings, we all do, but I mean, for us people, meaning us,

Mike (08:39.34)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (08:49.294)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Bill (09:02.642)
us alcoholic and drug addict-y people, that whole thing about control could be problematic is probably a soft way to put it, right?

Mike (09:05.571)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (09:12.446)
Oh yeah, absolutely. Right. Yeah. And, and, but again, that, that lack of control and that, uh, stop trying to control everything around you. Um, it all feeds back freedom, man. You know, I don't have to control the, I can't control things. That's really the cool part. Um, and realizing that and it's, it is, it's free. It's like, okay, shit is going to happen. Now, clearly, you know, I have to,

Bill (09:14.658)
Hehehe

Mike (09:41.918)
Again, the choice is I have to do things every day. You know, I have to control my responses and myself and that sort of thing, but I have to realize that the only thing I have any sort of mild control over is me, you know, everything else is gonna do what it's gonna fucking do, man. It's gonna whirl all around me. And, you know, and I have the...

the choices to put myself in situations where everything's not all fucking chaotic around me all the time. But yeah, you know, I there's not much I can do, man, serenity prayer shit, you know, the things I can change the things I can control the things I can have an impact on and the wisdom to know the shit that I can't.

Bill (10:29.678)
Right. Well, and the whole control thing and the cool part is, and I know we've mentioned this before, but I still, if I'm to the point where, on anything, where I feel I'm pushing a circumstance or a situation or, you know, maybe an idea or a person, you know, that sort of thing, I start to get uncomfortable and that's a fucking gift, you know, because

It's I never had that before. I never had that, you know, that sense of right and wrong in anything, let alone something is what could be something as I don't know. I mean, is sneaky as a control thing, you know. And it started really early and I told the story won't go in it anymore, but it was completely but spot buying a new cell phone that wasn't available and I was out with mom and she's like, we're gonna go home and we're gonna work on this. We're gonna get I'm like, for whatever reason. I'm just like, I don't

Mike (11:11.278)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (11:18.667)
Right.

Bill (11:25.794)
it felt wrong, I'm like, I'm cool, man. You know, and it was just, it was a phone. I wasn't going to drink over a phone. You know, I wasn't going to do that, but it was the, it didn't matter how small or how, you know, unimportant it was to the grand scheme of my sobriety, I was going to try to force getting this phone, and I'm like, for some reason, for whatever fucking reason, it's not the right time. And I don't know why, but it's not the right time, you know?

Mike (11:28.214)
Hehehehe right.

Mike (11:31.935)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (11:41.244)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (11:52.842)
Whether that's happened in relationships too, or it's happened with jobs, it's happened with all these different things. I mean, I've gone through that whole thing. I've gone through job searches. I've had job losses. You know, if I'm having money troubles, you know, well, fuck, is that what that was supposed to happen? Well, fuck me. I don't want to deal with this shit. You know? And I mean, you know, I won't even go into the fact that people dying because we know death happens. And thankfully, we've come to the point. And

Mike (11:59.011)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (12:11.403)
Hehehehehe right?

Bill (12:19.454)
in our lives and our, you know, same maturity, because it is, even though we're immature in other ways, that understanding that just, you know, death happens. But still, I mean, people get pissed off at, you know, when people die, well, I prayed, I prayed, and then fuck God and all that sort of stuff. And, you know, you can't control that even if you are one of those folks, nothing wrong with you, if you believe in that person in the clouds, you can't control it, you know, anything you can't.

Mike (12:23.342)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (12:35.162)
Mm. Hehehehehehe.

Mike (12:41.986)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (12:47.096)
Great.

Bill (12:49.099)
You know, and it just...

Mike (12:49.598)
Right. Exactly. If you're paying attention, that's kind of the way the system's set up and it's out of your hands.

Bill (12:55.434)
Right. And you know, I go back to, I was just gonna go back and say the words that you said, it's freeing, you know, to just be able to step back and be like, you know what, this shit's gonna work out. But we've said this a million times before, we can't just sit back in our chairs and be like, okay, life, give me everything I want. Give me the job I want, give me the money I want, give me the relationship I want. We have to do the work every day, that's the key. You know, but we just can't, we just gotta do what we can do, take care of our side of the street. Let's go back to that part.

Mike (13:20.718)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (13:24.878)
Exactly. Yeah. Put yourself in the position to be able to accept the gifts that life gives you. But if you're not in the position to get them, then they're just going to, you're going to miss them. Right. Exactly.

Bill (13:25.974)
You know, and then shit works out.

Bill (13:35.626)
Right. I like that. Say that again. So put yourself in the position to accept the gifts, right?

Mike (13:42.318)
to accept the gifts that life's going to give you. And it's also going to put you in the position to accept the crap that life's gonna give you. Again, the control part, it's all gonna happen, it's okay. And that's where the faith comes in, where it's gonna work out. Again, my side of the street's clean, I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, I'm doing the footwork, I'm doing the work, doing baby steps. But yeah.

Bill (14:05.006)
Hahaha

Mike (14:09.358)
Put yourself there, make yourself available for it, and eventually it will happen.

Bill (14:14.954)
Right. Yeah. But I like that though. Yeah. Putting yourself in a position to be available or whatever to receive or get or however you put that. I really, really like that because that is the thing, you know. It's one thing with doing the work. But yeah, we're doing the work to make sure that we are available and ready for anything, you know, good and supposedly bad moments, you know. And that goes back to that, too. And I think this is worth repeating. Mike and I don't believe in bad days. We believe in bad moments. There's plenty of days out there that have

Mike (14:23.844)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (14:32.338)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mm-hmm.

Mike (14:42.446)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (14:44.41)
a shit ton of bad moments, but always try to find the good in the day and obviously you can deal with it. You can handle the bad shit if you break it down into these moments. Same thing, one day at a time. We started out with that. One moment at a time. One good thing, one bad thing, whatever the fucking thing is, just deal with it that way.

Mike (15:07.07)
Exactly. Sorry, man. This, uh, this could, yep. Now you didn't know the computer is giving me notifications in my head. So I'm getting the bing wongs again.

Bill (15:09.386)
I think I might, oh, I was gonna say that I lose you.

Bill (15:21.274)
Oh, really? And I wonder, I'm hearing just mild little breaks in your speech. I wonder if, I mean, I can't hear the beep, but I wonder if that's what that is. You know what? Note to self, we should update that computer. What do we think, huh? Yeah. Right. So.

Mike (15:28.002)
Mm.

Mike (15:37.35)
Somebody should. If you were tuning in last week, I'm using Chris's old laptop. And so, yes, I'm getting notifications. Things need to be updated.

Bill (15:48.618)
Right. Well, you know what, we'll do that after we're done. We actually started early tonight, earlier than even we do start earlier in a normal early circumstance. So yeah, we'll have time. But so the last thing, and the thing I wanted to kind of say for last was there was the, it's, do you still, it's something along the lines of like the last sentence in there about believing in the illusion of control. Do you still believe in the illusion of control? When I read that this morning, I sat there and I,

Mike (15:56.266)
Right.

Mike (16:15.622)
Hehehehe

Bill (16:18.354)
It the all those action items in the 24 hour book and I think well obviously God grant me but if there's questions asked I always try to answer them honestly and that was one this morning and i'm like this would be and that's why I thought maybe I wrote one of these pieces down, but Didn't say something like do you still believe in the illusion of control or how did that? How did that read?

Mike (16:26.382)
Mm hmm. Right.

Mike (16:38.595)
That's exactly what it says.

Bill (16:41.014)
Does it? Okay. So, um, I guess that's, is there anything that you still believe, um, at all that you can control outside of, you know, what you just said before, just yourself?

Mike (16:53.63)
Right. No, no, absolutely not people, places and things, man. I'm fucking powerless and, and I'm thoroughly convinced of that fact. Yeah. There's nothing I could do. The only thing I can control is myself and my reactions to things. I can't control what anybody else is going to do. What anything is I can't change.

Bill (16:59.618)
Hehehehe

Bill (17:25.614)
I think I might, are you still there? I think I might've lost you. Yep, I'm here. And you cut out, I think, or if you were talking, I didn't hear you. I got the people, places, and things powerless.

Mike (17:27.895)
Hello?

Mike (17:35.218)
I mean, I said what I was gonna say, and I...

Mike (17:41.347)
Ah, I don't know.

Bill (17:41.854)
Okay, no, that's cool. Again, it'll be on the recording.

Mike (17:49.684)
Are we, uh...

Bill (17:56.112)
Check your microphone, make sure your microphone is... It almost sounds like your microphone's cutting out.

Bill (18:04.843)
I can hear you now, I think.

Mike (18:05.134)
No, my microphone's not cutting out. I'm getting a straight signal from it. I can look at it, but yeah. No, I'm looking at the meter. Microphone's not cutting out at all.

Bill (18:16.51)
Okay. Yeah. So we're getting a little bit of that, like now I'm getting a little bit of that bubbly sound that we had last week. But yeah, that was weird. It like you completely cut out as you were ending that whole thing and the powerless part. But I'm sure it's poignants and everyone else is going to hear it. I just didn't. So I guess I guess we'll continue. So you're still there, though, right?

Bill (18:42.262)
Yeah, but I don't hear you.

Bill (18:52.31)
Are you there?

Bill (18:58.986)
Yeah, now I hear you. Okay. That's just weird. I mean, I keep not being able to hear you for some silly reason.

Mike (18:59.86)
I don't think I mean I'm here

Mike (19:10.122)
Yeah. Well, okay. Wow. That was weird. Um, it was saying 0% uploaded and then it jumped to 99%.

Bill (19:18.7)
Yeah, I don't have any.

Mike (19:20.566)
Yeah, we got, we got problems.

Bill (19:21.898)
Um, weird. Okay, so let's, uh, let me do this. I am going to... I'm gonna pause our uploads. So sorry everyone, uh, hang on for a minute. We're gonna do, uh, do a little bit of a, uh, a technical thing here and see if this will do it. Keep talking, Mike, so I can make sure I can hear you.

Mike (19:43.35)
All right, I could I could talk. Check one, two, one, two. Hi there. How you doing?

Bill (19:44.606)
Okay. Yeah. I think we're, I'll tell you what, I'm going to do the, also going to do the load data mode just like we used to do. Okay. So, I mean, I could hear you talk now, so I think we're back. Yeah, it might have been the upload thing. So maybe, and it could be because we're under the same roof, maybe we're taxing your internet.

Mike (20:03.146)
Okay. All right.

Bill (20:12.918)
But you know what? Okay, so actually we did that on purpose to be able to. So if anyone believes that we got a fucking bridge or some shit to sell you and all that sort of stuff. But you know what, whatever, it is what it is. It was only a couple of minutes of us fucking around, but hey, you know what? We're back, how's that? I think you're, yeah, you're here. Okay, cool. All right, so.

Mike (20:13.635)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (20:18.494)
Right. Give you an example of lack of control.

Mike (20:28.266)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (20:39.074)
We're back.

Mike (21:02.102)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (21:03.345)
Yeah, the And,

Bill (21:11.446)
You know, those things can be hugely problematic for anyone, but for one of us folks, it could be deadly, right?

Yeah, so, okay. All right, so now that we're through, demonstrating our exercise on lack of control, what else is new, Mike? No, I'm just kidding. So, but no, I really did, I liked that reading and it was that, yeah, the control thing and the only thing I could think of was myself too when I was reading that this morning. So I think you put that far better than I did though. So, so cool. So anyhow.

Mike (21:21.556)
It can.

Mike (21:33.506)
Mm-hmm. Pfft.

Mike (21:45.464)
Mm-hmm.

Hehehehe

Bill (21:49.682)
So yeah, so we've been hanging out the entire week. It was nice. We watched some of the baseball. And I care less about, yeah, the baseball. I really don't care about baseball. I like going to a game every once in a while, but I mean, it was, again, to say it's interesting would be stupid because I don't think it was, but just you and I hanging out and we'd eat some food and hang out and watch baseball, shoot the shit, talk about whatever. It was just, it was...

Mike (21:55.342)
Uh-huh. We did. The baseball.

Mike (22:07.502)
Hmm?

Bill (22:19.118)
Again, it was the longest period of time that we've spent together and you know, yeah since we've lived together and since I moved back to Wisconsin But it was nice, you know, I got myself all set up in the room and had my all my work shit set up and it was nice It was just oh god, you're fucking neighbors though these because I'm on I'm on the side of I'm on the side of Mike's house with the loud neighbors. The other side is the old lady, right? so It it doesn't it it's like the weekends are

Mike (22:37.218)
Hehe

Mike (22:41.85)
Mm-hmm, right. Yes. Yes

Bill (22:47.154)
are worse than I've been here in the weekends. And that's usually when, you know, a lot of times they'll get, they'll get rowdy, they'll get lit up a little bit. It's all good. But you know, when it's, when it's, you know, two o'clock on a Tuesday and I'm sitting there and the fucking dude got a motorcycle, you know, and, um, he would, he would, he just started up and sit there. And I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? Because literally.

Mike (22:55.258)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (23:02.891)
Yes he did.

Bill (23:15.915)
If I was on the first floor and I could walk out the side of the house, the motorcycle would be 10 feet away from me. But it was fine. At one point, I just felt like yelling out the window. I'm going, listen here, you motherfucker. Some of us are trying to work. What are you doing? But yeah, it wasn't that bad.

Mike (23:16.59)
Oh.

Mike (23:25.27)
Yeah, exactly.

Mike (23:33.858)
Right. Yeah. They're, they're, uh, they're loud and inconsiderate and yes. Yeah. What are you going to do? I have no control over them.

Bill (23:42.794)
Right? Yeah. Another another good aspect of control. But yeah, they are. That's the one thing they don't they don't just talk. They loud talk all the time. Every everything, everything that comes out of their mouths is just loud talking. So but yeah, other than that, it was all good. So, oh, I have a one thing, one thing I noticed and when we live together and I'm sure there was little like isms and things like that, that both of us had. But once again, we always coexisted pretty well together.

Mike (23:53.815)
Oh yeah.

Bill (24:13.034)
But the, I don't even know what day it was, Sunday or month. Did you say, but

Mike (24:15.259)
Mm-hmm. But...

Mike (24:22.002)
I did. God, man, we're fucking delaying, dude.

Bill (24:24.342)
Yeah, I was I was thinking the same thing that we that we were and I was I was trying to think and hope that we That we weren't but um, I really feel like we are right. Is it bad?

Mike (24:36.104)
It's pretty fucking bad.

Bill (24:36.482)
God damn it. That shit whirling. Okay, well, I mean, I suppose we could always, it's only, what are we, 25 minutes in? I mean, we could take an early break, you know?

Mike (24:49.59)
Let's take an early break. We'll be right back. More of our spot. It will be right. I don't know what the hell. I have no control. I'm out of fucking control. We'll be right back after these words from our sponsor.

Bill (00:02.479)
All right, everyone, welcome back. And in real time, that wasn't a two minute break, that was a 30 minute break. You know, we got some, did some updates on the computer and did a new studio, got the whole bit, but you know what? Well, since we cut it like 25 minutes, this is almost like taking an early lunch at work, maybe we got the whole fucking workday ahead of us. Right. Yeah, hang out here. Before I get too deep into this, let me pause these uploads.

Mike (00:11.154)
It was.

Mike (00:25.542)
Great.

Bill (00:32.119)
We're going back to duct tape mode here just to make sure. Okay. So I don't know when, where we ended off. I think I was bitching about your neighbors, but we said they're loud and mildly obnoxious, but you know, the surprising part is I'm thinking, oh, they're gonna be a fucking treat for the podcast tonight, but there's been nothing so far. And it's, you know, Cleveland time right now, 7.32 PM. So if you figure this is,

Mike (00:43.456)
Oh yeah.

Mike (00:57.522)
Right. And it's nice outside. Occasionally they take it to another location. So hopefully that's what they're doing tonight.

Bill (01:04.512)
Maybe they're here. They took their shenanigans on the road hopefully, right? But oh, you know, it was speaking of parties and stuff like that. There was a Facebook memory that came up recently that said it was from you on Facebook. This is why is it every time you go to your mom's that Jorge has a party? So.

Mike (01:28.298)
haha

Bill (01:30.419)
So the place that Mike and I lived together, not the three quarter house, but where we actually had our own place, we were basically in the attic of this house, you know, the far upper. So there was like three families in there, two bedroom lower, two bedroom middle. There was a two bedroom, right? I think, probably.

Mike (01:48.354)
I have no idea. I know I was never in it.

Bill (01:50.951)
Yeah, but I guess either way, it doesn't matter. But so we had the upper, we still had two bedrooms, a smallish place, but it was perfect for us, big bedrooms, we talked about it. But our mom lived in Medina at the time, which is a half hour away, 20 minutes, whatever it was. So a lot of times I would go down there and hang out on the weekends and just stay overnight down there. And yeah, it happened two or three times, I know, at a minimum.

Mike (01:59.703)
Right.

Bill (02:17.435)
But yeah, I'd leave and then, you know, fucking Jorge had a, would have a party and just, and yeah, when they had a party, man, they would just go fucking nuts till like two, three in the morning. It was crazy, you know, which again, it was fine. You know, he was, he was fine. It wasn't mildly annoying when you're trying to sleep, but you know, other than that.

Mike (02:29.052)
Hmm

Mike (02:33.599)
Right.

Bill (02:39.227)
So it wasn't terrible, right?

Mike (02:40.978)
It was not. Yeah, I mean what it was a couple times a year. Maybe they do that two, three times a year or so. Yeah, it was fine, you know.

Bill (02:47.071)
All right. There was the one I know the one for a fact New Year's Eve. I think you were out on the road when you were working for Sandy and they had a New Year's Eve party, which again, fine. I stayed up to midnight. I was hanging out watching something afterwards. But you know, when it got to be like 2 30 in the morning, and he's fucking down there blasting Frank Sinatra. And I'm just like, okay, I'm done. I'm fucking jumping on the floor and shit like that. He's beating on the ceiling. I'm like, you fucking motherfucker. Like,

Mike (02:53.13)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (03:15.158)
Hehehehehehe

Bill (03:16.375)
Come on, man. It's fucking 2 30 in the morning. Get a fucking hint. Go to bed. Do something other than make, you know, I can sing your fucking songs and drinking your booze. Do your thing, but it's too fucking late now, right?

Mike (03:21.023)
Right.

Mike (03:28.38)
Exactly.

Bill (03:30.067)
So, all right, but yeah, I don't know. I think we're back. Sorry about that first 25 minutes. I don't know. It'll be interesting to see what recorded, maybe you and I were just acting like we couldn't hear each other and both of us are talking and maybe it was more comical than anything else. But hope you guys enjoyed it. Hope you guys enjoyed it up until that point.

Mike (03:44.467)
Exactly.

Well, I just saw my neighbor pulling on his motorcycle. So maybe he'll sit out there and rev it for awhile.

Bill (03:57.339)
Oh yeah, I hear him. I hear him. That's awesome. That's awesome. Okay, cool. Yeah. Yeah, maybe we'll hear it. So anyhow, but oh, I know the other thing I was talking about. So I was talking about our isms when we were living together and little things that we learned about each other and we always coexisted together and blah, blah. So, and I can't remember what day it was this week. It was Sunday or Monday.

Mike (04:01.186)
Hehehehehe

Mike (04:13.358)
Mm hmm. Yes.

Bill (04:21.427)
And I went in and I think either was washing my hands or something, it was the kitchen sink and I went to turn the cold water on and I like hit the sponge. The sponge was sitting there like right next to the cold water thing, vertical kind of angled in there. So I just, I moved it and set it down, you know, horizontally, like right in the middle so I wouldn't like knock it over. And then wasn't thinking much about it. Then I, you know, when I came back the next day, and you know, filling coffee, wherever I see it sitting there again, and I'm like...

Mike (04:33.812)
Uh-huh.

Bill (04:48.219)
this must be a thing of his. So I put it down on purpose and I kept doing it all week. So every time I went in there, and the one time it was, it'd be in the morning too, you know, I put it down on purpose and then you'd come in the kitchen before you went for work and it's standing up and I'm like, this is definitely a thing. I'm going to keep fucking doing it, you know. No, and it's cool. And I just caught onto it. I'm like, okay, yeah, there's nothing wrong with it. I mean,

Mike (04:49.698)
Hehehehehehe Ah!

Mike (05:07.486)
Uh-huh. A place for everything and everything in its place.

Bill (05:17.339)
And after that, it's not like it got in my way. And I would have obviously knowing something that's an ism, you know, that when Mike and I lived together, as little as that might seem, fuck with him. Because then I thought this will be a great topic for the podcast. You know, but other than that, I mean, you know, I would just normally just put it back where it was. But yeah, we've I mean, everyone's got those little things, but I don't know. I mean, again, you know, it's been it's been a really nice week. And, you know, tomorrow we've got a planned number one for sure.

Mike (05:31.657)
Hehe

Mike (05:43.267)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (05:45.995)
We're going to the casino. We're going to eat our body weight and food. We think, you know, that much maybe. We'll try. Try to pace ourselves. We'll report back next week. And, you know, hopefully we didn't die. Right. And then, yeah, our buddy Tony might go with us too, but we haven't heard back from him. But either way, it's going to be nice. We're going early because to begin with, Michael had plans and then the more we thought about it, I mean, I got to kick out of here.

Mike (05:51.022)
Right?

Mike (05:58.903)
if we survive, right?

Bill (06:13.419)
really early on Sunday anyhow. And I don't know, so we're gonna do, I don't know, probably meet up at what, 3, 3.30, something like that, and head down there. So it'll be nice, you know, just once again, we always get together for our anniversaries and you know, this year is no different. And yeah, it's just, I'm looking forward to it. It's been a good week. We got our pizza tonight, we got that all set. So I don't know, we're having a good start to this 15th year, right?

Mike (06:33.966)
We did.

Mike (06:41.89)
Absolutely. Now if I could just keep my sponge straight.

Bill (06:42.987)
So, right, yeah, and oh, the other thing, the paper towel, I noticed that you put the paper towel a certain way so it technically goes to the left in the cupboard, I kept turning it around to go to the right. Same thing. It's.

Mike (06:55.69)
Ah.

Whatever. Yes, I'm insane. I, you're not first person I've told that to. Right? I mean, you know, it's my house and I like things the way I like them and they're there for a reason. Even if that reason is completely, uh, has no sense, but it makes sense to me. So there you go.

Bill (07:17.423)
Right. And again, I do not and never in my life would I say that you might be insane, but not for doing that sort of thing. You know, because literally I've got I've got so many things in my life. I mean, the way that I set things up the way Well, it doesn't I there's I anything I do all the things I do are the way that I do them and it's fine, you know, but I just I just as little things I noticed I'm like, I just, you know, turn it back and I'm just testing and checking out the end. These are things that his so there was years ago.

Mike (07:25.794)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (07:32.238)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (07:38.179)
I'm Azuma.

Bill (07:47.539)
And our stepdad, Larry, he was very particular about, even more so than Mike and I are about anything and everything, and it was kind of funny because, for two things, the one thing that always was the big thing for him, the paper towel, he'd always roll the paper towel so it went backwards, okay? So same thing as having the toilet paper go behind rather than forward. So this is before I quit drinking and after.

Mike (07:56.542)
Mmm.

Mike (08:07.531)
Mmm.

Mike (08:11.81)
Right?

Bill (08:16.563)
When I when I would go down there in the house they lived in a Medina, you know, just one paper towel holder. But they had three bathrooms, one upstairs and two downstairs. Every time I got there and I would just walk around the house, I, you know, I kind of sneak it. But I go in and I'd switch the toilet paper and all the bathrooms. And I would switch around the paper towel every single time. And he would just over time just go back and, you know, like if I was there for a couple of days, it would all be switched back. And then, you know, he had, you know, like you had.

Mike (08:25.57)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (08:41.602)
Hehe hehehehehe

Bill (08:44.055)
He didn't have as many pillows as you do on the couch, but pillows went in a certain space and were angled in a certain way and all that stuff. So I would move the pillows, you know, and he'd go, same thing, go back to the room an hour later and the fucking pillows are, yeah, exactly. So yeah, it's, and again, not insane, just he was very particular and I used to fuck with him all the time and he would never say anything. And then, you know, I'd bring it up and he's like, yeah, you know what? He's like, I know what you're doing.

Mike (08:47.749)
Haha.

Mike (08:51.636)
Yup.

Mike (08:59.731)
Where they're supposed to be, god damn it.

Mike (09:09.166)
Hmm?

Bill (09:13.555)
I knew what you're doing. I know. He goes, I just, he goes, you keep doing it. I'm going to keep fixing it. I'm like, well, nah, I'll stop. I'll stop fucking with you now. But no, anyhow, it was just, it was just kind of fun.

Mike (09:15.588)
I'm aware of it. Great. Exactly.

That's right.

Mike (09:26.682)
Yeah, you'll be gone in a day or so anyway, so it'll be fine. Ah, of course not. I wouldn't expect you to.

Bill (09:28.767)
Right, right. Well, I was saying I told Larry that I would stop fucking with him. You, I'm not gonna necessarily stop fucking with. Right, so, but yeah, like I said, it's been a great week and it's not done and that's all good stuff. So, all right, so a couple of things. I wrapped up Craig Ferguson's book. I know I told you that, but a couple of just minor things. There's so many things that, so the first thing is that his book,

Mike (09:44.558)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (09:58.847)
I think the cool part about his book is it just, I don't know, kind of how we talk about things. We're talking about life things and sobriety goes with it type of thing. His book is kind of the same way. You know, he's talking about all these experiences and not every single one, you know, like this is when I was drinking or this is when I got sober, but they're woven into it. But some of them are just life stories and they're great, you know. So I didn't really pick out any particular stories and stuff like that, but

Mike (10:09.946)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (10:19.537)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (10:27.427)
The wrap up of the book, at the end of it, this I thought was one of the coolest things. So the end of the book in the acknowledgement section, again, I'm listening to the audio book, or was, he thanks Bill Wilson for dropping a couple of dimes in the phone at the Mayflower, and thanks Dr. Bob for giving Bill 15 minutes. He also thanks all of their friends, you know? And I was just like, God, it was nice. He obviously thanked his wife and his family, and his kids, and.

Mike (10:45.684)
Hehe

Mike (10:53.791)
Mmm

Bill (10:57.675)
you know, his agent, his publisher, all these different people. But yeah, when he just said, yeah, thank Bill Wilson for the dropping a couple of dimes in the phone. I just, I don't know. I just thought it was, it was a great way, it was a great way to wrap up, you know, wrap up his book. And I really enjoyed it. I highly recommend it to anyone. Again, Craig Ferguson, it's Writing the Elephant. Yeah, I think Writing the Elephant is the name. God, no, I forget, but it's a great book.

Mike (11:02.48)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (11:08.078)
So, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so

Mike (11:14.146)
Uh-huh.

Bill (11:26.371)
Highly recommend it. So there. Now, the other thing too, and this was from another podcast and they were talking about you know, obviously sobriety being a journey, you know, versus a destination type of thing. But then the one person asked the other person, I kind of wanted to ask you this question. Do you consider yourself to be a destination type of person or more of a journey?

type of person. And I mean, in general, you know, or with sobriety or, or either way, specifically, I don't know, destination versus journey.

Mike (12:06.678)
Um, I'm definitely journey because, uh, it kind of goes back to our, our control thing. Um, I don't know where the hell I'm going to end up. You know, I certainly didn't, um, I certainly didn't plan on being, you know, uh, 57 years old, owning a house on the west side of Cleveland. It just, um, that was never in the plan, but, uh, here I am and I'm glad I'm here. And, uh, you know, still, uh, trudging that road.

Bill (12:16.857)
Right

Mike (12:36.066)
But yeah, you know, destination, again, it's a control thing trying to, yeah, where I'm gonna end up and I don't know where the hell I'm gonna end up. Again, I have the faith and the trust in the process that wherever I end up is gonna be all right. And so far it is. And yeah, you know, enjoy the journey, man, because you don't know. I mean, if you're focused on,

the destination, you're missing all the shit along the way. And that's half the fun, man. That is the ride. That is this thing we call life, you know, the little stuff along the way, man. Enjoy it. Look at that fucking moon. You know, if you're if you're paying attention to the road signs and, you know, I got 15 more miles to get to where I need to be. You're going to miss looking up and seeing that moon and glancing over and seeing those flowers or whatever the fuck it is.

Bill (13:18.275)
Hehehehe

Bill (13:34.455)
Yeah, and it was, yeah, and I think so too, because I mean, especially definitely in the sobriety thing, because I mean, it, we never get to where we are supposed to be, I guess is the easiest way to put it, you know, with this whole sober thing. Wherever we are, I mean, wherever we are now is, I don't want to stop here, I never want to stop, you know, so I always want to keep striving. Same thing goes back to what we had talked about, I don't know how many times about

Mike (13:34.506)
So yes, journey guy.

Mike (13:44.245)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (13:49.45)
Right. Yeah, exactly.

Bill (14:03.267)
You know, I don't have this thing. I don't want anyone to tell me or to think that I got this thing because I don't. Um, so that that's the whole journey thing. And then I was thinking about it from just in, in general, you know, thinking about, um, I dunno, like when you guys go to Mexico, you know, you, and I know that, that you guys look forward to it. You focus on it countdown days and that sort of thing. So that's looking at the, at the destination, but, um, you know, and I'm, I'm doing the same thing now with these different places I'm going, you know, I've been.

Mike (14:17.541)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (14:22.668)
Oh yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Bill (14:29.887)
I've been eyeballing this Cleveland trip, you know, for two months now, you know, and when I was going to the Ozarks and then, you know, now I've been out of the Ozarks for a week, but I'm going to, you know, this place and then that place. And I'm trying to figure out that place, you know, but the biggest thing though, was like you said, you know, like, God, the God damn moon, you know? And if I, if, if I don't, if I'm just looking forward to, you know, if I was just looking forward to being in Cleveland for the week, I would have missed, you know, all these different things, maybe.

Mike (14:48.919)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (14:57.867)
not enjoyed the time in the Ozarks, which would have been nearly impossible because it was fun and I liked it and it's beautiful. But you know, like driving around the Ozarks, going to the grocery store and I was fucking looking at everything. I'm stopping at shit. I'm looking at stuff and same thing driving through. Could you, did I ask you that before? Have you driven through that area ever or no?

Mike (15:02.446)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (15:23.126)
Yeah, I have.

Bill (15:24.587)
and I may have lost you again. Okay.

Mike (15:26.902)
Yeah, you did.

Bill (15:30.303)
Okay, did I lose you or are we just delayed?

Mike (15:34.166)
I'm not sure. I'm still here, still hitting that meter. And yes, I've driven through the Ozarks before.

Bill (15:40.543)
Okay, so just that area and stuff like that with how the roads are cut out through, I don't know, some of the hills and shit like that. I mean, just driving to the goddamn grocery store was beautiful and little things like that. I mean, I know that's maybe a silly example, but it is, but it isn't. So I don't know, it just, I've learned since I've been.

Mike (15:55.598)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Bill (16:08.119)
And I know you have too. I think we have learned since we've been sober to literally, you know, that the old saying, you know, stop and smell the roses and, you know, take a look at that God damn moon and all those different things, because I mean, those are the cool parts. Yeah, I mean, we're going and, you know, you go and see cool things and hang out with fun people and, you know, all that stuff. But man, I mean, we have to, what's the point, you know, if we're not enjoying the days and the moments along the way, right?

Mike (16:33.762)
Exactly. Yeah. Enjoy the journey, man. You know, the destination will happen when it happens. And guess what? Like you said, we never stop. So what is the destination? You know, you're going to be there for a while and then it's part of the journey because you are you're not going to stay anywhere forever. You know, they're only the only constant is change. So yeah.

Bill (16:52.903)
Haha

Bill (16:56.379)
Right? But yeah, it was just, it was, it was interesting. And I, I thought that I knew what, you know, kind of what your answer was. And in my head, I knew what my answer was too. But I don't know. It was just something I thought would be interesting enough to talk about. And here's the funny part. So the next thing I have written down on here, from God grant me, do I still believe in the illusion of control? So, so yep.

Mike (17:19.743)
HAHAHAHA! Where'd you get that from?

Bill (17:21.587)
Yeah, so literally that I obviously made myself a note this morning. So that's before when you were talking about that. I'm like, God, did I really make a note of that or not? I just I couldn't remember, but clearly I did. But all right. So clearly I did. Clearly I did. So one of the things that I almost passed over this, but think about, I guess, what I was thinking about over the last, I don't know, probably a couple of weeks as the.

Mike (17:35.374)
Clearly you did.

Bill (17:49.279)
Kind of speaking of, again, I reflect and I think back a lot of times when we're coming up in these anniversary things, but all the things that have changed in the recovery world in the last 14 years, I mean, with technology, different groups and all those sort of things, it just kind of blows my mind when I really sit back and think about it. Because when both you and I, and I could be wrong, well, I guess let me ask this question first. When you were in...

by California or any other place where you were in a type of program. Did you know of any other recovery programs outside of like an AA or a 12 step, like a named program or no?

Mike (18:23.789)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (18:32.342)
No, no, hell, I barely knew a 12 step program.

Bill (18:38.713)
That might be the best answer.

Mike (18:39.426)
Quite literally, that's why I, it's why it didn't work. Heheheheheheh.

Bill (18:42.863)
Right. No, that might be the best answer ever. I apparently knew a 12-step program. But you know, I don't think the first time I even ever heard of, like, smart recovery is a relatively common one these days. And that was probably, I don't know, I'm trying to think there was two individuals that I met in Wisconsin that did smart recovery. And I went to, did I go, no, I didn't go to a smart

Mike (18:54.478)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (19:11.555)
She was, we went to a couple of AA meetings together because she kind of went back and forth type of thing. But I mean, so I still don't, I've got like a sideline idea of what smart recovery is, but there's all these different things. I mean, smart recovery is just the first one that pops out. But you know, you take a look at the time that we, you know, that we got sober in, I'm not trying to say, oh, back in our day, but it really was, you know? I mean, literally just the technology.

Mike (19:17.264)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (19:35.31)
Thank you, my day.

Bill (19:41.143)
You know, the fact that people can and do, you know, just they don't go to meetings. They could do them all online. They don't physically go to a club or a meeting or a church basement or anything like that. They get all their recovery online. Maybe they do therapy online and all these different things. You know, so it's a whole different thing. And I know you and I have talked about that briefly, but you know, I don't even wanna bring it up as whether it's good, bad, or indifferent.

Mike (19:42.752)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (19:50.83)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (20:01.23)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (20:10.391)
It's just different, you know, I mean the different choices that people have. So, I mean, my next question is do you think at the time that you walked into the Keating Center, if you would have been given, let's say today, you know, having all these different things out there, which way would you lead or would it, do you think you'd end up on the same path if that's the way you ended up or do you, I mean, do you think you'd use a different path?

Mike (20:23.566)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (20:39.358)
Um, I don't know. I truly don't. Um, now, I mean, as much as I don't like socializing and all that happy crap and, you know, not the hugest fan of people and all that good stuff, um, so going to that church basement and sitting around with a bunch of people, um, for the same purpose, you know, it was like when we went to the retreat, you know, it was.

I was a group of people there for a single purpose. And it's, I don't know if I could get the same effects sitting in my room, looking at a screen. I really don't. You know, it's like when they told pen to paper, don't type it out. Don't, you know, write that shit out with your hand. There's something about the tactical part of it that I think we kind of need to do. It's different. And I think...

I mean, I don't know if it's more effective, but I think it's more effective for me. Um, I'll put it that way, you know, sitting in that church basement, grabbing that pen and putting it on an actual piece of paper and writing the shit out as opposed to typing it into a screen. Um, I think has more meaning for me. So yeah, I don't know that I could have done it any other way. And I don't, you know, it doesn't matter because I don't have to. I'm doing it this way and it works.

Bill (22:02.807)
Right, no, and I understand that. And I know that we have talked about that too, that I don't mean that as a fact of us questioning the path that we had, because the path that even if other choices would have been available, I mean, the Keating Center was, I was pushed in, right, that's what I'm saying, that's what I say, if, because I was basically told this is where you're going. It wasn't like I sat down, it wasn't like I was in a...

Mike (22:16.942)
Mm-hmm. Hehehe. Like we had any other choice. Hehehe. Right.

Mike (22:29.186)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (22:31.423)
in a quote unquote life restaurant and sat down with a menu saying, well, I think I want that, you know, it wasn't like that. It's like, no, nope, not even, not even one, not even one, you know, but it was only from the, from the stance of, and you had a couple of good things where you said that you didn't think it would work for you. And I agree because looking back at it now, and although we've talked about it before that, you know, again, when

Mike (22:37.354)
Right. You didn't have a variety of brochures.

Mike (22:44.744)
Hehe

Bill (22:59.523)
They were searching, my family was searching for all these different places. And the one, I think the one, the person at the hospital, uh, detox unit had recommended or had talked to Kathy about, um, uh, the IOP thing, you know, and thankfully she's the one that said that she's like, I don't know that's going to work for him, you know, and great decision because I don't, I don't think it would have, you know, again, left to my own devices. I mean, I know now.

Mike (23:15.191)
Right?

Mike (23:19.384)
Hehehehehehehehehehe

Bill (23:26.719)
I'm not saying it wouldn't have worked, but I just don't think that was right for me at that time. But I go back to, you know, and it is the way that we were raised, you know, with we've grown into technology, we didn't grow up with technology, you know. It's not our first thing, although I live by my phone and I live by all the technology they have. That's the only way that I, that's my job. I mean, I'm able to do the things I do because.

Mike (23:42.39)
Right.

Bill (23:54.095)
Thankfully, the company I work for has all the technology for me to, I get to lug a few things around, you know, but I get to work from anywhere I want as long as I can plug into an ethernet cable. That's it, you know. But, you know, you go back to how I was taught and how I learned and how I was conditioned to learn. And even after I got sober, I remember when I when I moved back to Wisconsin. I got that was the first time that I had a laptop for work, you know, so, because I was

Mike (24:00.838)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (24:21.675)
move in between office to office and the training department, blah, blah. But, um, when I was going through, I was given a laptop right away and I was sitting, I went through a full week's worth of training, normal collector training, um, with the trainer that was there. And to begin with, I had my, my laptop and I'm like, this will be great. I'll just take notes. Cause then I'll have to transcribe shit and write it all down. I spent one day typing out notes and I'm like, I didn't retain anything from that day or not enough in my opinion.

Mike (24:47.882)
Mm.

Bill (24:51.671)
You know, so after that, I just fucking wrote it all down. And when I went through this job, I've got a folder full of notes that, you know, getting started that first month or so I went back to my handwritten notes. You know? So, and I do think that, you know, we've got more of that, that old school mentality simply because again, right, wrong or indifferent, that's how we were raised where if, um, who knows, you know, maybe those, those that are in there. 20s and early thirties and stuff like that.

Mike (25:02.83)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (25:18.839)
That's all they've known is the screens, you know, so who knows maybe it's a maybe it is a generational thing I don't know. It was just interesting thought if nothing else, you know

Mike (25:27.946)
Absolutely. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's funny. It reminds me, you were talking about these different ways. There's a commercial on the radio here for some sort of getting sober thing. And it's right. And it's like, you know, their selling point is you can stay in your home. And I was like, I don't know about all that, man. You know, I, you know, sitting in that place where I was, you know,

Bill (25:40.336)
Thank you.

Bill (25:51.292)
Hahaha

Mike (25:56.97)
that darkness and all that, that same physical place. Um, and, and trying to, you know, first of all, if you still have a home, um, I don't know if you're ready for this yet. Uh, but, um, right. I mean, I don't, I don't know how that would work. I mean, I guess it is probably a lot of, you know, screen time and stuff like that. And, and, you know, um, you know, I haven't looked into it because thankfully I don't have to.

Bill (26:06.44)
Hahaha.

Mike (26:25.846)
But it just, it doesn't seem like it would make a lot of sense. I mean, I needed, you know, I needed a new environment. I needed a wholesale change in everything to begin this changing everything. Um, so yeah, I mean, you know, and I know a lot of people don't go through, um, you know, recovery houses or, you know, whatever. Um, that's fine.

But I mean, I needed to be immersed in this thing, 24 seven for a little while. I mean, yeah, six months until we moved into the three quarter house. I mean, we lived, breathe, ate, chat, fucking recovery in that place. And that's kind of what I needed to do. Yeah.

Bill (27:12.818)
All right.

Bill (27:17.195)
Right. Well, and here's the other thing too, and hindsight to me and all that it is and all that good stuff, but had, because I mean, at the time, everyone knows I've said it a zillion times, I didn't want to get sober, didn't want to be there, blah, blah. But, and I don't think any of us really were skipping through all the different things that we had to do on a daily basis, the groups and the cleaning and all this fucking shit and house fathering and all that stuff. But if...

Mike (27:44.246)
Right.

Bill (27:46.003)
If somebody had, and again, I mean, I'm sure people have said this to us, you know, just this, this little bit of time for the rest of your life, you know, in the little, little bit of time, this little investment. But had I, had I comprehended that, which there's no way to do it, but that's what it was. I mean, even if we take the entire, um, whatever it was, I mean, how long we were at the Keating Center total for what, a year and 11 months between in there under their umbrella between the three quarter house.

Mike (28:00.415)
right.

Mike (28:15.339)
Other than a year and a half. Yeah.

Bill (28:16.431)
year and a half. Okay. So, but I mean a year and a half and somebody said okay a year and a half of you know that it's going to get gradually better just like everything does in this in this thing we do. You know, but to begin with it's going to be hard fucking core. You got to do all this stuff and some freedom and this and this and then after that you're going to have this life that you're you know in five years you're not going to even recognize Christ in 10 years let alone 14 years you're not going to recognize

Mike (28:26.565)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (28:44.174)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (28:45.175)
And yeah, there's gonna be struggles and there's gonna be this and that, but just the small portion, do this little bit of work and it's gonna be okay. And that's what it is. I mean, that's what all this stuff is. But I wouldn't have fucking believed it. There's no goddamn way. Somebody could have sat down and like, no, I'm looking at the future. I see where you're gonna be at five years from now and be like, fuck it, whatever, man. I don't wanna be here. But I mean, that's.

Mike (28:52.342)
Right.

Mike (29:01.322)
No. Ha ha ha.

Mike (29:09.102)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (29:13.582)
Hehehehe

Bill (29:14.287)
But that's really what this stuff is. But yeah, to your point, and maybe it is, we're just not necessarily wired that way to maybe to have been, you know, do this whole online thing all the time, although so much of our lives are through that now. But in the start of it, that's what I said. I said before that people that actually started their sobriety journey, you know, during the pandemic, like G, you know, for instance, and we know a few others, a handful of others, I think, at a minimum.

Mike (29:40.341)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Bill (29:44.907)
But people who got sober and stayed sober during that timeframe, it blows my mind because it was so important and so needed for me to have. I needed that structure. I really did.

Mike (29:58.37)
Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Well, and I mean, that was, it was still going on. I mean, the houses were open and, you know, people were during the pandemic, they were going in. But I mean, right to your point, the opportunity. And, and I mean, didn't even rich basement cause you know, they, those weren't open. Um, you know, I mean, my home is one of the most liberal ones there is. I mean, we were

one of the first ones to open back up and all that good stuff, but we were shut down for a while. And, um, yeah, it's, uh, I don't know, man. I, again, I don't know if I could do it that way. I really don't. I mean, I didn't have to, so I don't know what I'm capable of, but, um, thankfully I wasn't tested that way. Um, there are plenty of tests for me, but, um, not that one. So yeah, exactly.

tip of the old hat to those people that actually did it that way.

Bill (30:57.859)
Yeah, and still continue to do it that way, you know, and there's a lot of people and that's the thing and we've mentioned it before but there are just, we've had our collective eyes between you and me opened, you know, over the last couple years since we've been doing this thing, almost, you know, coming up on two and a half years since we've been doing this thing, you know, that of all the different opportunities out there and literally meeting the people, you know, that are doing these things.

Mike (31:23.435)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (31:24.427)
And it does, even if we don't think that we could have done it. Man, look at you. You're over there doing that sort of thing. This other person. And it's cool. It's, it's wonderful. And it just same thing. You know, we say it all the time, right? You know, as long as you're not out there hurting somebody, right?

Mike (31:39.078)
Mm-hmm. If it's making your life better and it's making you a better person fucking a man do it

Bill (31:43.967)
Yeah, exactly. Especially when it comes to, I mean, life in general, absolutely, but when it comes to staying sober, that's the thing, right? But yeah, so I don't know. It just kind of made me think about it, this whole technology thing. It's wonderful. And I don't know, it just adds, there's so many more opportunities, which once again, I think is a great thing. So kind of along those same lines I wrote down, have no idea where I got this from, but clearly one of the action items and one of the readings, I will list.

Mike (31:53.297)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (32:12.167)
List three things that have made my life better than I thought it would be. Can you think of three things off the top of your head? List three things that have made your life better than you thought it could be.

Mike (32:25.71)
Um, well, let's see. Um, I mean, you know, uh, service and willingness and open mindedness, all things that, um, I absolutely was not willing to do. I was not, you know, I was very close minded. I fuck everybody else and, um, you know, my way or the highway. And, uh, when I lost all that shit, um, you know, smash that ego and humbled myself.

Bill (32:26.571)
Ha ha

Mike (32:55.15)
Um, yeah, my life got fucking better, man. Doing things for other people, keeping an open mind and taking in new ideas and new concepts and new ways to do things, you know, except for my sponge and, um, no fuck with my sponge, man. Uh, right. It was right. And I, you know, what? Again.

Bill (33:07.404)
Ha ha!

Bill (33:12.931)
Yeah, and I won't anymore. I won't anymore, but now I know. And I told on myself just because I thought it was funny. So.

Mike (33:23.806)
Um, you know, other people are in my house occasionally and, um, right. You know, and things don't go back exactly the way that I had them. And so I just put it back the way I want it, like Larry and his pillows, me and my pillows and right. But, um, yeah, those three things, man, you know, I'm opening my mind and being willing to do things that, uh, maybe make me a little uncomfortable and, um, and that whole helping other, you know, being of service to.

Bill (33:36.425)
Right.

Mike (33:52.234)
my society that I live in. Um, yeah, all of those things make my life fucking better. And I never in my wildest dreams thought that they could, you know, my, I was set and this is, this is it. And it's all in mirror and look where it fucking got me. It got me miserable and lonely and fucking homeless and broken, sick, physically sick and spiritually sick. And yeah, no, I'll take this way. It's much better.

Bill (34:13.323)
Hehehehehe

Bill (34:20.087)
Yeah, I mean, and it is definitely. So I'm gonna steal one of yours. The humility thing is, I mean, by all, no doubt. I mean, that's one thing that I did not have ever, that didn't matter at what point in my life. But I thought about, as you were talking, honesty, being able to be honest with people, but also without that sideline too with honesty is not, we don't have to be brutally honest. We could be honest in a loving way and.

Mike (34:31.994)
Mm, mm, great.

Mike (34:41.794)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (34:45.71)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (34:49.495)
you know, not hurt people's feelings with our honesty. But the other thing I just wrote down was silence. You know, having that ability to shut my fucking mouth, you know, and not on here. I talk and I yap and this is, I don't mean this, but I mean in a situation where do my words really, are they gonna help or hurt a situation, you know? And just because somebody's bothering me, I don't need to tell them that, you know, just because

Mike (34:56.656)
Mmm

Right. Well, of course.

Right.

Mike (35:11.915)
Right.

Bill (35:16.659)
I don't want to be someplace. I don't need to say something about it or make somebody else's life miserable. Um, you know, somebody's telling me something and I'll give a flying fuck about, we've talked about that enough. I don't need to say, you know what? I just don't fucking care. You know? Um, but yeah, that, that ability to shut the fuck up, you know, it's just, it's, it's a gift.

Mike (35:21.963)
Alright.

Mike (35:30.307)
Uh-huh.

Mike (35:34.955)
Yeah.

Right. Yeah, keep your stupid fucking opinion to yourself. Right.

Bill (35:40.811)
Yeah, and that's the thing, man. I'm not less opinionated than I was. I'm probably more opinionated because I have clearer thoughts these days and have more opinions than other than just fuck you and fuck life. So I believe in my heart that I have more opinions, but I don't need to be openly opinionated. Again, is what I say have worth? And that's the point.

Mike (35:47.214)
Mm. Right. Exactly.

Mike (35:57.419)
Right.

Mike (36:09.038)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (36:09.919)
And like I say, this I have to talk, so there's that. But the other thing too, just random shit, chit chat and shit and back and forth. I mean, yeah, I talk a lot, that is what it is. But it's rambling shit, not life shit where I'm trying to hurt people. But yeah, again, that ability to be silent. Sometimes a lot of things are literally just best left unsaid.

Mike (36:29.326)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (36:32.75)
Exactly.

Mike (36:37.514)
Right, and it kind of comes back to the control thing too. Are we trying to control the situation by mouthing off and, you know, no, let me tell you how it really is. No, maybe it's fucking not really like that. Maybe that's how it is for you, but it's not for everybody else. And yeah, again, sometimes it's better to just keep your fucking mouth shut.

Bill (36:47.543)
Hehehehe

Bill (36:56.987)
Right? Yeah. And you know, but the other thing too, and I guess I want to make this part clear is that it doesn't mean that, and I think we've talked about this, we don't need to be doormats either. You know, we can speak up, you know, when we're being wronged or something being harmed in some way. We can speak our mind. We just don't have to be hurtful. You know, there's a huge difference.

Mike (37:12.231)
No. Mm-hmm.

Mike (37:18.19)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (37:21.578)
Right, exactly. Yeah, and even if someone else is being harmed, step in and get that balancing act. We're not trying to control the situation, we're trying to make things better. Yeah, that's the difference.

Bill (37:37.875)
Yeah, I agree. I agree. God, I have one more. What was the other one? I just kind of lost my step here. Oh, this one's kind of a long paragraph. I haven't read this in a while, so let's see what this says. These are always the fun ones. Okay, from the reading a day at a time, which again, I know you don't read. May I be a doer of the steps, not a hearer only. May I see some of the common missteps

Mike (37:51.527)
Alright.

Bill (38:07.619)
that lead to a fall, being too proud to admit step one, being too tied to everyday earth to feel the presence of a higher power, being overwhelmed by the thought of preparing step four, a complete moral inventory, being too reticent to share that inventory, please higher power guide me as I work the steps. So it kind of gave, I know that was a lot of, you know, jibber jabber, but the most important part of it was the beginning of it. May I be a doer of the steps and not a hearer only.

So just that part of it. Mike, what does that mean to you? Ha ha ha.

Mike (38:38.562)
bright.

Mike (38:45.027)
Right. Well, again, we can all sit in that church basement and read those things on the wall. Yeah, it's about incorporating them. It's you know, it's a simple program of action. It's yeah, working the steps we have to. You know, I knew the steps. Hell, I had a memorized, but I didn't work any of them.

Bill (39:04.823)
Ha ha ha!

Mike (39:08.686)
Oh, right. Yeah. It's, it's incorporating these principles in your life, man. That's yeah, I can't, I can't sit on the sidelines, man. I've got to do the work. That is, that is the bottom line. Absolutely. Yes. No, I hearing the steps. Okay. Yeah. That all sounds great. So, and then, and then what? Right. Nothing's changed. Nothing's doing. We have to, we have to get into them and work them, man. That's, that's how they work.

Bill (39:25.484)
Great.

Bill (39:32.935)
Yeah, and that's a thing. Yeah, oh, this all sounds good. All right, hey, thank you. Appreciate it, I'm gonna head on my way now. But the couple of things in there, I mean, first of all, obviously, the common missteps and saying that being too proud to admit step one. And I think that that, I'm guessing, but I mean, part of it being saying I know for a fact that I think pride has a big part of people not being able to really understand and admit.

Mike (39:38.269)
Right

Mike (39:42.103)
Right.

Bill (40:01.335)
You know, the powerlessness, number one, I think that might be the biggest part. You know, the unmanageability sometimes is pretty clear, you know, but I think the powerlessness might be a pride thing for some people, don't you think?

Mike (40:04.304)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (40:12.69)
Oh, absolutely. Well, again, we're going to say the control word. You know, what do you mean my life's unmanageable? I'm managing things. I'm, yeah, no, no. That's, and I've said it plenty of times on here, man. I do not manage my own life today. I mean, I do the things I have to do, but I don't manage it by, again, liar, cheat, and a thief. That's what the fuck I am, man. I'm selfish and self-centered, and I want to feel good all the time, and that's how I live my life. And...

Bill (40:18.921)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (40:41.098)
No, these principles, that's what manages my life today in the truest sense. And if I allow that to happen, then my life gets better. It's pretty cool. But yeah, but no, yeah. Again, the pride and the control thing. Yeah, what do you mean I'm powerless? What do you mean I can't manage my own life? No, I can't. I have no power, clearly. I got loaded when I didn't want to. And...

that my life was unmanageable. I didn't know how to do anything. And today I can do some stuff and it's pretty cool. But I do it again, you know, running it through a filter, if you will. You know, is it honest? Is it loving? Is it unselfish? Is it caring? Is it, yeah, all that stuff, man. It's gotta run through that otherwise, because my way is how can I shoot some angles? How can I fucking?

Bill (41:14.451)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (41:35.83)
not be truthful. How can I cheat? How can I steal? How can I take what's not mine? Yeah, that's, that's my way and it doesn't work out very well.

Bill (41:44.395)
Yeah, and the, I mean, I'm gonna repeat what our good friend, you know, wherever he may be, you know, may he rest wherever he may be resting, but our good friend Dan, you know, said in a group, he said, and he was talking about step one, he goes, you, he goes, a lot of people in this room, you know, it was 20, 30 of us, whatever it was, he goes, you may not believe that you're powerless, but he said, if you're at the Keating Center, your life is unmanageable. And I mean, I don't think we could have been more than.

Mike (41:54.35)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (42:09.243)
Right.

Bill (42:12.899)
fuck a week sober, two at the most. And that was a tough one to argue with. I mean, it's kind of like, oh, okay, well, okay, I gotta give you that one. But again, these little things that I'll never forget. But then the other one's talking about being too tied to everyday earth, to feel the presence of a higher power. Now, that's going probably more into the God thing. But I mean, it goes back to a pride thing too, admitting that there is something greater than ourselves, whatever it may be.

Mike (42:15.202)
Yeah, right.

Mm-hmm. Hehe

Mike (42:31.158)
Mmm.

Mike (42:35.497)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (42:42.182)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Bill (42:42.359)
whether like you say, whether it's AA or the group or it's love or it's something out there that's greater than you, that again goes back to that control and a pride thing, right?

Mike (42:49.852)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. And absolutely pride goes before the fall.

Bill (42:56.223)
Right. Then of course, yeah, obviously being overwhelmed by set four, we talked about that, the moral inventory, all those sort of things. But yeah, and I know we've talked about, you know, the idea, because it was a baffling thing to me when I first heard that concept of, you know, quote unquote, working the steps. I didn't understand it. I had no fucking idea. I'm like, they're here. I'm reading them. What the fuck do I? I mean, I don't see a math problem on here, you know?

Mike (43:03.207)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (43:22.658)
Hey. Hehehehe. Okay.

Bill (43:25.791)
Although they're turned out to be math and they're AA math. We talk about that a little bit. But yeah, I don't know. It's just, it is. It's all about the work, the effort action, right? I think.

Mike (43:29.791)
Uh-huh. Hehehehe.

Mike (43:41.923)
And I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that.

Bill (43:51.931)
Right. All right. So next one, again, from a reading, I have no idea which one this was, but I will list times during my active addiction that I felt most hopeless. Okay. And then I've got a sideline question after that, but let's start with that one. Can you think of even, I don't know, one or two right off the bat when you felt the most hopeless during your active addiction?

Mike (44:19.37)
Um, yeah, you know, broke, homeless, you know, no friends, no, no nothing, man. I mean, seriously, nothing, you know, maybe a dollar in my pocket. Maybe not. Maybe not even that. I mean, there are times where I was dead ass broke and I mean, dead ass broke. Yeah, on the street, man, wandering around, you know.

Bill (44:23.767)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (44:47.158)
pretty fucking hopeless when, you know, the only place you've got to go is goddamn shelter at the end of the day. You know, they kick you out in the morning and you got to go wander the streets. And then, oh, boy, I get to go there and, you know, they'll give me some crap food and a shitty bed and they do it. Yeah. You know, I'm horrible, horrible. And I live that way. And I'll go out and maybe panhandle a couple of bucks and get a quarter of fucking beer to try to feel better for a couple of minutes.

It was, it was not fun, man. Not fun at all. No, I'll do this stuff. This is much better.

Bill (45:22.927)
Yeah, again, you know, we gotta read a fucking book, do some readings in the morning, gotta go to a meeting every once in a while. I mean, Jesus Christ, all that fucking work, right?

Mike (45:30.51)
Mm hmm. Right. Help some next guy, you know, show him the way a little bit the way we were shown. Yeah. You know, do a goddamn podcast on Friday night. Yeah. Right.

Bill (45:39.747)
Hehehehe

Well, and you know, the thing is that we've talked about it. I mean, I wasn't homeless yet. I was about to be, you know, or at least without my own home. You know, I mean, I had a huge, huge problem with my ex. You know, I was seeing my son, but this and that. I mean, I had got the last, in the last four years, you know, before I got sober. I don't know, there was a lot of those things. And I know that for a fact, that's why I was drinking so much. You know, we try to drink our

Mike (45:48.478)
Mm-hmm. Right?

Bill (46:12.463)
drink our feelings away, even back to the point when Dawn and I broke up or split, you know? Even though that, I mean, all of that shit I know now, you know, obviously, you know, was my doing. I mean, at that time, you know, I remember, you know, those feelings and it's weird. Every once in a while, again, it's like, you hear a song or there's a smell in the air or just the way the weather is a particular day and that just brings you back to, you know, one of those moments. And I mean,

Mike (46:12.753)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (46:25.17)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (46:40.319)
Again, our senses do that to us, you know? But man, like you said, I don't ever want to go back to that stuff. And the way that nothing's guaranteed, granted, but one of the ways that we can help to ensure that we don't have to go back to those sort of things is goes back to what we've been talking about this entire episode, is doing that work and doing those things. We talk about it every episode.

Mike (46:44.302)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (47:08.871)
doing the things that we need to do every day to be the people that we want to be and the people that quite honestly we need to be, you know, because that's what other people want and you know, our lives are better and all that stuff, right?

Mike (47:09.198)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (47:15.927)
Right.

Mike (47:21.23)
Right. And being the people that we need to be so that we don't have to medicate ourselves to cover up the shit behavior that we had that vicious circle, man, you know, I'm a piece of garbage, so I'm going to medicate myself to feel better. And then I, you know, and then I do bad things because I'm medicating myself and, you know, I got to cover it up with more medication and no, thank you. I'll do these little, these little things that, you know,

that aren't so little, but they really are the big picture to make myself the person that doesn't have to do that anymore.

Bill (47:56.267)
Right. And so my, my sideline question on that was, uh, was how about, um, any, any times like hopelessness since you've been sober? I mean, have there been any, that was a side question for myself, right? Cause I thought about that as I wrote that down, but have there been any, if it's, and I'm not trying for you to, my, my main point, I don't want, I'm not digging into personal stuff that you have to, we have to spit out on a podcast, but you know what I mean.

Mike (48:09.246)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Mike (48:17.896)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Right now, you know, the beautiful thing is no, you know, troubles and whatever. Hopeless with lack of hope. Absolutely no hope at all. No, there's always something. There's always a little bit of hope, even in the worst times of being sober and doing this thing. Absolutely. There's a little spark of it in there somewhere. Not like it used to be where there absolutely was no hope at all. You know, yeah, the word hopeless.

Absolutely no hope. And there's always there's always a little bit, even when shit's going sideways, man. There's there's that light at the end of the tunnel. There's something there, man. I'm going to get out of this. I know I am. You know, it's going to be OK eventually, even if it's all fucked up at the moment. Moment.

Bill (49:06.903)
Right? You know, and I've talked very, very openly on here about this is I can be walking along, you know, having the fucking time of my life and a great fucking mood. And all of a sudden, I'll dip in it. There's no fucking reason for it, you know. And today when I was working, I mean,

Mike (49:27.31)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (49:30.351)
Fridays are kind of a short day and we get, it's shorter day, longer lunch. It's a long story. We get short lunches throughout the week to get done early on Friday. It's cool. I don't remember if it was like right away in the morning or maybe in the afternoon. And I had a good day. I mean, things are going well. My work day was good. Nothing was wrong. But I'm sitting there on some, making my some phone calls and stuff like that. I had this moment, I'm like, fuck me. And I'm like, what the fuck? I mean, I wasn't, I didn't like.

Mike (49:37.89)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (49:55.874)
Hehe

Bill (49:58.147)
dip into depression, but all of a sudden it was like, it was almost like I just got bad news, that type of feeling right away, and nothing fucking happened. And I'm just like, where the fuck did that come from? But on the other side of things is, I've openly said the same thing. Why the fuck am I in a good mood? What the fuck, where did this come from? And I stopped questioning that because you and I, once again, another thing that was...

Mike (50:03.242)
Right.

Mike (50:17.246)
Right.

Bill (50:23.751)
Revealed on this podcast. I think you probably says what the fuck are you questioning that for? I'm like, I don't know. I don't know why I am um But yeah, I mean true hopelessness man. I i've had some i've had some down moments. I've had some down things I've had some shitty moments and again, but I keep saying the word moment because that's what they are, you know um, and And as shit went sideways

Mike (50:28.68)
Right.

Mike (50:43.842)
Yeah, they are.

Bill (50:49.791)
Um, once again, we've talked about it before. There's plenty of people in our lives that we can talk to, but, um, I've reached out to you on a number of occasions, not even bad things, just something that'll fuck me up for a minute. And I'm like, what the fuck? You know? And then we talked through it, you know, and I, you've, you've done the same thing. And what the fuck, you know, we talked through it, you know, but that's, that's the thing that no matter what it's almost like we have this, even though maybe at the moment it's like a small winning lottery ticket, it's not billions, you know?

Mike (50:54.737)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (51:04.63)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Mike (51:19.052)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (51:19.103)
Sobriety isn't like a like a multi-million dollar lottery ticket. It's just it's enough to get you to get you buy every day You got to do the rest, you know, it's gonna maintain you every day It's gonna take care of you, but you got to take care of it, you know So no matter what you and I both have these anyone that's sober if you think about it You got this winning ticket in your pocket all the fucking time. So no matter what's going on at least you're sober You know, that's what that's what matters and then from there. I'm a firm believer that

Mike (51:23.166)
No, it is.

Mike (51:33.006)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (51:45.187)
Right.

Bill (51:48.983)
You know, no, I mean, not everyone can run out and, you know, do whatever they want to do and be whatever they want to be. It all takes work and talent and all that stuff. But, you know, we have so many abilities and endless opportunities. Um, you know, what are you going to do when you're sober? What am I not going to do? You know, whatever the fuck I want, that's what I'm going to do.

Mike (51:57.632)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (52:05.91)
Right. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Right. I mean, basically, it's yeah. Like you said, you know, I'm not going to be a fucking astronaut. I'm not going to be a doctor. I'm not going to be a fighter pilot. But if I'm sober, I got a chance. I got a chance. That's all it is, man. And again, there's that hope, you know, you can't be hopeless if you got a chance. You know, if I'm sober, I've got a chance. I can't be hopeless because there's a little hope there somewhere.

Bill (52:16.933)
Hahaha

Mike (52:37.138)
Something's gonna happen. I'm gonna be okay. That's all it fucking matters. That is enough as I talked about last week. It's enough I don't need the more

Bill (52:46.915)
Right? Yeah, and I mean, we're always, I mean, we're always striving to, you know, get more things, do more things, you know, grow and all that stuff, but yeah, it's, this is enough, and I loved it, that when you said that, that everything that's sitting right here, I mean, this is enough, but we stop doing the things that we do on a daily basis, that we need to do, and then, again, sitting here on a Friday night, and you know, that, okay, so think about this, I mean, on top of it, is,

Mike (52:53.483)
Dyer.

Bill (53:13.847)
You know, we got an early start. We're all about this. It's an anniversary weekend. It's all this happy fucking crap going into this. And then once again, we get fucking technology issues that we weren't down for a few minutes. It was literally 30 fucking minutes that we, that we were down, you know, look, staring at a goddamn computer screen, waiting for it to update, you know? Um, but the whole point is, I mean, literally we could have just said, you know what? Fuck this shit. We got 25 minutes. Maybe we won't post an episode this week. Fuck all you fuck everyone.

Mike (53:23.566)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (53:27.33)
Yeah! Right!

Mike (53:38.99)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (53:43.922)
Right.

Bill (53:44.781)
We're gonna go watch, I don't know, anything, you know, but yeah, I mean even that.

Mike (53:48.01)
Yeah, right.

The second round of the NFL draft. Blah.

Bill (53:54.411)
Yeah, yeah get so pissed off to what did you do we watched the fucking draft that's how bad it got We watched All right the second round on a Friday fucking night we watched the draft All right, so um so yeah, but I like that yeah, and that's true I'm glad you said that to you that yeah that not no way in the world since we've been sober to have to feel completely

Mike (54:00.49)
Right. Not the first round, the second round.

Bill (54:22.991)
I didn't think that you were going to say that, but, um, you know, I mean, we, again, I've had my moments, man, where shit, you know, shit's just, you know, get you feeling down or whatever. But, um, like you said, hope less, not having any hope.

Mike (54:29.618)
Oh sure. Mm-hmm.

Mike (54:35.338)
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Again, as long as I'm sober, I have a chance at whatever it is. So it's okay. Yep.

Bill (54:43.767)
Right? There was one more that, oh, did I, let me just read this and see if I ever talked about it. I heard this on a podcast. You don't have to be an alcoholic, or let's say call yourself an alcoholic. You just need to be unhappy with your relationship with alcohol. And what they were talking about was for people to make a decision to make a change in their life, to either be without alcohol,

be sober, whatever they want to call them. But so let me repeat that. You don't necessarily have to say, I'm an alcoholic. You just need to be unhappy with your relationship with alcohol. Now, maybe it's a start, maybe it's whatever, but how do you feel about that?

Mike (55:28.638)
Um, well, uh, I mean, we certainly, no, we certainly know, uh, people that are not alcoholics that are unhappy with their, um, relationship with alcohol. And so they stopped drinking, you know, like the big book says, you know, those normal people that described perfectly by Bill Wilson, you know, given sufficient reason, they can stop on their own, you know, right. And that's the difference between an alcoholic and a non-alcoholic.

Bill (55:29.811)
Yeah.

Mike (55:56.418)
given sufficient reason, I could not fucking stop on my own. I had tons of sufficient reasons to not drink and I could not stop. Yeah, you know, I know normal people who are like, you know, I had a good time and maybe drank a little more than they should have and blah, you know, but they went, eh, this is really not working for me anymore. I think I'll just put it down. You know, I mean.

Bill (56:21.524)
Right.

Mike (56:23.338)
Right, us alcoholics, you know, the shit wasn't working for us for years and we could not put it down. Yeah, that's the difference. So if you cannot put it down after it's not been working for you for years, ah, you might wanna call yourself an alcoholic. Just saying.

Bill (56:38.531)
Hehehe

Bill (56:45.323)
Or even if you want to have label yourself as someone with a substance abuse disorder. Yeah, syndrome, whatever. I don't know. And you know what? I don't know. I have, let me, let me step back there. I'm going to try. Yeah. And I mean, we're not trying to make fun of the people with the word. It's just, it's fucking a little bit, but it's just fucking everywhere now. I mean, the, I don't, I just don't, I don't.

Mike (56:51.09)
Right. Syndrome.

Mike (57:00.226)
You're a toss pot. Move on.

Mike (57:06.455)
Eh, a little bit.

Bill (57:12.243)
understand that let me let me put it this way for all the people out there that are using the word thinking you're offending people um there are people and are you raising your hand mike because i'm raising my hand there are people we're under okay me too we're on a roller coaster ride now mike and we okay so there if there are people out there if you hear somebody identifies an alcoholic or anyone in

Mike (57:19.182)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (57:25.09)
Both of mine are up. Heheheheh.

Mike (57:31.402)
Right, woo!

Bill (57:39.647)
in the particular 12-step program named Alcoholics Anonymous. It's okay. You don't have to change the word. We're not offended, okay? Now, if somebody walks up to you and says, I have a substance use or substance abuse disorder, then okay, go along with it, you know? But the thing of it is, is just, I don't understand why, and I don't need to go into all this stuff. It just blows my mind sometimes. The word doesn't have to be changed. It's okay with everyone. We're not all offended by it.

Mike (57:58.048)
Right.

Mike (58:09.951)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (58:10.147)
It doesn't have to be one of those things. If it is, it is, but I don't know. Like Mike said, if you drink too much for too long and you become physically dependent and from a medical standpoint, even though people are saying this, some people are saying, well, it's not the medical, whatever it is, yep, you're an alcoholic. Call yourself whatever you want. Call yourself a fucking green monster, don't care. But just try to get sober or be alcohol free. Or do whatever you gotta do, man. Just like, we'll go back to what we keep saying, right? Do what you do.

Mike (58:27.466)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (58:34.73)
Uh-huh.

Bill (58:39.651)
You're not hurting yourself and you're helping, helping yourself and not hurting others. There it is, right? Yeah.

Mike (58:45.15)
Mm-hmm. Right. And I'm a drunk and a junkie, so there.

Bill (58:48.211)
Right. And I'm a drunk that, you know, given whatever opportunity, if I would have stuck out there, I probably would have ended up being, I would have been a dead junkie, you know, at some point. I still, I truly think I just would have killed myself with the fucking drugs. But I don't know. It's a yet, you know, and the yet that I don't want to, I don't really want to explore. So, but, I don't know. So what else? I mean, this is, this is an anniversary episode. What else? Is there anything else we want to talk about from an anniversary side of things except for, you know, really fucking wonderful? And we've been

Mike (59:11.473)
Eh.

Bill (59:19.081)
Yeah, it's not all that. It's not that.

Mike (59:21.268)
Right. Again, you know, it's not an anniversary episode because yours was last Friday's mine was last Monday. Guess what? Today is today. That's that's all we got, man. You know, I'm

Bill (59:33.409)
Yeah, I know. But this is this is our anniversary weekend, or the celebration of. There we go. OK.

Mike (59:42.2)
It is. Okay. Yeah. You know, I'm celebrating the fact that I stayed sober today and today is not over. So I can't quite celebrate yet. Not fully, but I'm hopeful.

Bill (59:48.431)
right? Right? Well, and and you know what? I mean, it's just I'm I'm actually I'm celebrating the fact that I get to go to a you know, just a a **** hell of a buffet. I'm really really looking forward to it. Plus again, I mean, we haven't seen Michael since uh on January, right? Yeah, I think that's the last time I saw him. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, you did but yeah.

Mike (01:00:03.534)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:00:10.19)
Well, yeah, I mean, I saw him at the fundraiser, but yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, but it's yeah, exactly. But we actually get to hang out, which is which we haven't done. And not just the three of us, the boys night, you know, which we haven't done in a long time. It's going to be cool. Yeah, absolutely.

Bill (01:00:24.323)
Right. Yeah, it'll be a lot of fun. And then the next week, look it up, look it up, people. I'm going to be in Dyersburg, Tennessee. OK, don't even bother looking up. There is no fucking reason in the world that I that I'm going there with one exception because I'm going to Texas the following week and I'm going to be down there for three weeks. That'll be cool because I'm going to be a little bit north of like Galveston by the Gulf and all that shit. That was my.

Mike (01:00:34.325)
Hmm

Bill (01:00:53.079)
That was my choice. That was my destination. I picked a place in between because I can't, I can't drive or I can.

Mike (01:00:59.966)
So you're gonna enjoy the journey in between, not the destination? I see.

Bill (01:01:26.165)
Right? Yeah.

Bill (01:01:30.679)
You know, I just, I thought about the whole position that I thankfully have worked my way into. And I did, and it took time and all that stuff to get to where I'm at to the type of job that I have. But, you know, so I commit on Saturday, we hang out. We hung out on Sunday. Got to go to a meeting with my friend. I got to see people at that meeting. Couple of people I haven't seen in a while, like Don and Matt, I saw Matt and, you know, a couple other people and.

Mike (01:01:38.445)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:01:53.806)
Right? Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:01:58.471)
Then I'm sitting here, you know, and I get to, I just get to be around, you know, for, for a week and then, you know, be able to do this thing tomorrow and all that stuff. And just a, I, gratitude, you know, that's, that's really what it was. And you know, having the ability to, yeah, enjoying the journey. Dyersburg, Tennessee, believe me, I've looked up a couple of things. I'm trying to figure out what's so fucking great about being there. And there's nothing, you know, it's not, it's not a shithole, I don't think. The weather's going to be nicer.

Mike (01:02:10.748)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:02:22.55)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:02:25.815)
But it's a stop along the way and you know, it's gonna get me to you know, my end destination But even that's not the thing, you know, so

Mike (01:02:33.042)
And you know what though? You're going to be down there. You're going to be open-minded and I bet you're going to find something cool. Sure. Why not?

Bill (01:02:38.995)
Oh, in Dyersburg? Yeah. Well, impossibly. I'm going to have a going in on Sunday. Right. Yeah, and very little time there, because I mean, I'm working during the week and then getting there on Sunday, kind of mid afternoon. You know what? I'll be able to check out the grocery stores and kick around for about two, three hours till I get to get back and make something to eat and set up my shit and go to bed. But one way or the other.

Mike (01:02:45.099)
Or at least a possum.

Mike (01:02:57.154)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:03:03.194)
Oh, you might meet the love of your life there in that grocery store.

Bill (01:03:06.647)
Right? Some Tennessee bitch. What's up baby? Come here. Hey, hey you. Well wait, I gotta change my accent. Hey baby, come here. Get on over here woman. All right, so for the three women that listen, send me a message and let me know if that kind of, kind of would spark your interest in me. I'm just curious.

Mike (01:03:11.403)
Wow. Come here. Let me know if that works for you.

Mike (01:03:22.543)
Get.

Mike (01:03:28.514)
UGH

Mike (01:03:35.362)
That's bill at sober.mature.com.

Bill (01:03:38.315)
Yeah, it's just info. Yeah, just I'm a Mr. Info. But yeah, whatever. I'll just fuck it around. No, all in all, it's all good. I'm happy with where I'm at in my life and had a great time this week and I'll continue to have a good time. You know why? So I'm gonna make it. I'm gonna make it that week, damn it. Yeah, man. I got a chance today, man.

Mike (01:03:41.176)
Hehehehehe

Mike (01:03:55.342)
Mm-hmm. That's right. Yeah, because you're sober. So you got a chance.

Hehehehehe

Bill (01:04:03.851)
All right, you know what? I think we're done. Fuck it. We're... I'm sitting here talking in a fucking hillbilly accent, kinda cat calling women, so I think we're done. I think we're done.

Mike (01:04:07.557)
Yes, we are.

Mike (01:04:16.134)
Yeah, I think I think we are. All right. Well, thank you, everyone, for listening to another episode of Sober Not Mature. Hopefully you fast forwarded through that. And as always, be kind to each other, be good to each other. Do something nice for somebody else this week. And don't tell anybody that you did it. Now it's time, kids. It is that time. It is time for you to fuck off. Then keep fucking off.

Keep fucking off till you get to a gate with a sign on it saying you cannot fuck off past here. Climb over that gate, dream the impossible dream, and keep fucking off forever.

Bill (01:04:54.032)
Woo buddy, that was a good one. I'm gonna say, I should have saved that for next week, but who knows, maybe I'll come on the podcast by next week and I'll be all Southern with my language. It could happen, it could happen.

Mike (01:04:57.462)
Wow.

Mike (01:05:09.317)
It could well, and then you're going to be down in Texas for three weeks. So, you know, it's a different Southern accent, but let's see if you can pull it off. Do the two different ones, Tennessee and Texas.

Bill (01:05:12.107)
Yeah, that's true. That is true.

Bill (01:05:21.436)
You know what? I'm just I'm gonna let I'm gonna let things whirl. I'm gonna let it flow. I can see what happens Yeah, if I show up with a fucking Texas accent, you know, fuck it is what it is

Mike (01:05:26.67)
Don't you let... Right, stop trying to control everything, man.

Mike (01:05:34.558)
Yeah. 10 gallon hat and some cowboy boots.

Bill (01:05:37.027)
Right. Alright man, you know what? I'm not only talk to you soon, I'll fucking see your ugly ass soon. So I love you brother. Bye.

Mike (01:05:43.23)
Right, love you too, bye.