SoberNotMature - Episode 117 (Rocket Rides With Gary)

Bill (00:03.059)
All right, everyone. Welcome once again to another episode of Sober Not Mature. And we have Gary with us. Anyone? SpongeBob? SpongeBob, anyone? Yeah, you're a, you're, no, well, I know. You know, you know who SpongeBob is though, right?

Mike(00:12.263)
Hehehehehe

now.

Mike(00:20.519)
I'm aware of the character, yes.

Bill (00:22.899)
Okay, so yeah, Gary's a snail and adds his pet and he's always like, Gary. So, well, thank you, Gary. I appreciate that. At least, at least one of you has got my back tonight, right? That's what we brought a guest on. So I get somebody to, you know, I don't know, back me up with my stupidity, right? But yeah, so if, if anyone, again, I always say if anyone's paying attention, I, people don't, don't care. Don't give a fuck. But if you're listening,

Gary Burdell (00:23.118)
Gary the Snail.

Gary Burdell (00:29.902)
I know what you're referring to.

Bill (00:51.699)
Gary was on with us in episode 81. If you haven't listened to episode 81 yet, turn this off, go back to 81, because Gary's not going to retell his story. He's just hanging out with us tonight. But, you know, so we're not going to go back through his story. He did a really nice job. Gary, I actually re -listened to your episode the other night while I was, over two nights while I was making dinner and stuff like that. So if I can do it again, then I find the time to do it anyway.

Mike(01:21.959)
Okay, I'd like to point out two things here. I did not go back and listen to the episode and I believe we're probably the only podcast that start off saying turn this off and go listen to something else.

Bill (01:22.003)
That's it.

Bill (01:33.011)
Well, we've done it before. Well, we've had a guest. You know, we've only had a couple of people on twice, but yeah, shut it out. You can come back to this episode, but yeah, go listen to Gary's episode first. Well, they'll know. They'll know. See, it's a tease, Mike. It's in the biz. It's what we call a tease in the biz. In the podcast biz. Right, yeah, the biz of the old pod. Well,

Gary Burdell (01:34.558)
Good point, Mike.

Mike(01:37.479)
Hehehehe.

Mike(01:42.727)
well, they're gone now, so it doesn't matter.

Mike(01:51.079)
the biz of pod.

Bill (01:59.443)
But on top of that, you know, we don't do anything like anyone else anyhow. And that's, that's one of the, one of the things that makes us all cool and stuff. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Everyone just don't fucking listen to us. I don't know why you're here, but yeah, for anyone who, who stuck around past that or who came back after listening to Gary's episode, Hey, welcome back. Gary's with us tonight. So, but yeah, I mean, I, I dunno, we had talked about, I mean, Gary's been, you know, it was kind of funny. I was thinking about so.

Mike(02:03.975)
I know I just wanted to spotlight that. Our uniqueness.

Bill (02:29.939)
Gary, you know the story about how Mike came into our family. I mean, we invited him over for Easter one year and he's been here ever since, you know, kind of like never left. Fed him, of course, I think that was the key, right, Mike, feeding you at that point. And then, Gary, I was thinking about it's kind of the same way, you know, you emailed us, you came on the podcast and then you've pretty much never gone away, which I don't mean that in a bad way, but you know, so you've been kind of part of our podcast and one of our...

Gary Burdell (02:38.894)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(02:41.831)
That was it. Yo, feed me and I keep showing back up.

Bill (02:57.971)
one of our supporters, which we appreciate, the emails and the comments and all those sort of things. So, you know, obviously thank you for all that, but certainly thank you for wasting your time again and coming back on with us. Yeah, well, who knows? Well, we're...

Gary Burdell (03:09.294)
I don't think it's a waste of time. I love you guys. You're part of my sobriety. I look forward to listen to you every week.

Bill (03:17.139)
Well, we're only three minutes and 17 seconds in. So we'll decide in a little bit, or you can decide if it was a waste of your time. How's that? But, so Gary had texted me before and he said, so same format. He goes, do the reading and then we'll shoot the shit. And I'm like, well, it depends on how Mike feels, whether or not you want to do a reading tonight. I mean, it is, it's just, okay. So let's why, why don't we do a reading? Let's roll some good thoughts around in all three of our heads and then we can, all three of us talk about it. What do you think Mike back to you?

Mike(03:22.951)
Hehehehehe

Mike(03:35.591)
My feelings don't matter.

Mike(03:47.399)
Well, thanks, Bill. Sounds like a great idea. And you know what? I'm actually mixing it up a little bit because this is from Keep It Simple. It was from this morning and I thought it was a good one. So I thought I'd share this one with us. Yeah. So May 17th out of Keep It Simple. If you offered a seat on a rocket ship, don't ask what seat, just get on.

Bill (03:48.655)
What good.

Bill (03:57.715)
Bill (04:03.283)
Nice.

Mike(04:14.791)
And is Sheryl Sandberg. Apparently she was a CEO of Facebook at one point. All right. Spiritual growth is the greatest gift we can receive and we earn it through taking risks. There is much risk involved in working the steps. There is the risk of admitting that we're out of control. The risk of turning our will in our lives over to a power greater than ourselves. The risk of letting go of character defects.

The risks of making amends to people we have harmed. The risk of admitting our wrongs. The risk of telling our stories as we carry the message of hope. To grow spiritually, we need these adventures, these challenges, these risks. Prayer for the day. Higher power, help me to take the risks that I need in order to grow. Action for the day, because this one has pesky actions too.

I will look at today as an adventure with my higher power. I will list the fears that I need to let go of.

Bill (05:23.187)
Okay, so let's start off with that. Was Mike was today an adventure with your higher power?

Mike(05:28.247)
There were adventurous moments in today. Yes, definitely. Definitely. There's some adventurous moments in every day.

Bill (05:40.755)
Yeah, there certainly is, but first of all, yeah, that is nice. I mean, I don't know, when did you start reading Keep It Simple?

Mike(05:47.815)
this is my second go through. So like a year and a half ago or so.

Bill (05:53.363)
Okay, and I'll be honest, I don't remember when I started reading it, but probably I think I've been reading for a handful of years and I don't know where I came across it or what I replaced it with or that sort of thing. But yeah, I'm glad you did because I mean, that's another one. I like them all, but between...

Mike(06:09.991)
Well, the reason I went to it, this time it's actually, it's written or collaborated or compiled or whatever by the same people that dig .grant me. Yeah.

Bill (06:20.331)
Really? Huh. I don't know if, you know, now that sounds familiar, but you probably said that before. So I don't know. Fuck, I can't remember. And that doesn't surprise anyone. Yeah, I do. Yeah, because I saw the rocket ship thing and then, you know, just get on it. It reminded me of kind of like the whole concept of don't look a gift horse in the mouth type of thing. You know, I mean, you're...

Mike(06:29.575)
Do we remember reading that this morning? Well, there you go. Right.

Bill (06:44.947)
You're being given something and you know, yeah, just get on the fucking rocket. But I could see, and I thought about that this morning. I'm like, yeah, I'd be the guy being like, can I step out the window? I wanna see some shit. So Gary, do you, and I forget, I mean, I know you've got your meditation and stuff like that. The only reason I remember that is because I just listened to it again. But do you do meditation readings in the morning? And if so, what do you read?

Mike(06:53.767)
Yeah, what seed am I getting? Right.

Gary Burdell (07:05.422)
Mm -hmm.

Gary Burdell (07:11.278)
I don't have my books in front of me, darn it. I just drew a blank. I have some daily readers. I actually have not been doing them. I'm going to tell on myself a little bit. But I haven't been doing them. I haven't had, unfortunately, in the mornings, I have had a tough time waking up. And so I make sure that I text people that are important to me in my recovery.

Bill (07:13.587)
It's okay, it's okay.

Bill (07:30.291)
Ha ha ha.

Gary Burdell (07:38.862)
And so that I'm held accountable, but I haven't been doing the readings. I, when I do do them, there's six different books that I do. and I don't think God grant me as one of them. I do as some Hazelton ones. there's a meditation book. There's a, another one as a daily reader. And then there's some Alan on daily readers that I do, along.

Bill (08:02.003)
That's right. When you talked about you did drop the rock to didn't you? Do you still read that? Or did you read it just?

Gary Burdell (08:07.694)
I don't read that on a daily basis, but I have read that a couple of times.

Bill (08:12.403)
Okay, yeah, I got the, I paid for the audio book. God, I don't know, probably three or four months ago. And same thing. I was going to buy the book and I'm like, you know what? I'm doing enough driving and there was an audio book. So I just bought the audio book and listened to it. And that's what Mike and I were talking about a couple months ago after I done that, you know, kind of, I don't know, having a conversation on here again at some point with steps six and seven, because same thing, Mike, they...

those are what people consider like the forgotten steps, right? Are the ones they don't kind of what they call them? Okay. Yeah, which I mean, obviously they're hugely important. I enjoyed, you know, the audio book and I, even though it's been probably only a month or so ago, maybe even two months ago, definitely I should, I should listen to that again. But yeah, so I mean, the morning readings and well, you know, you've heard it before, but you know, both of us read God Grant Me, we read the 24 hour book, we both read Keep It Simple. I added A Day at a Time.

Mike(08:42.855)
absolutely. Mm -hmm.

Bill (09:09.267)
I don't know, again, three, four years ago, something like that. But they're short, you know, they're short, sweet, basically all the same format. But, you know, same deal, nine times out of 10, I don't remember what I read. But but if Mike brings it up and it happens to read from we read, boy, read one. You know what? It's it's been it's been a hell of a week. And I spend my all my days on the phone the entire day on the phone. And it's just been it's been a.

Gary Burdell (09:26.382)
You're having a good evening.

Bill (09:37.875)
It was a rough week work wise just with my basically my success. It was a it was a slow week and so i'm making a lot of phone calls and I was just like god damn so Clearly i'm talking over myself or talking, you know outside of myself or whatever the deal is but So if mike brings it up and reads one, you know during an episode then i'm like, yeah I guess I did read that one this morning. So But no, I like that one. I talked about and I was

I got to the point where I wrote down risk in steps and then there was all the different things. What were all those? Do you still have your book there in front of you?

Mike(10:08.839)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah, it's well, no, I didn't get up and go anywhere. So, yeah.

Bill (10:15.315)
But you know, I don't know. Sometimes you could just throw it. I don't know.

Gary Burdell (10:16.174)
the

Mike(10:19.303)
I'm dying. no, this one is, keep it simple. It's a Hazelton book too. So it's got grant me. Yeah. I mean, you know, right. But, let's see here, the steps, all right. So it goes, yeah, it goes through the risk of admitting we're out of control. Clearly step one, the risk of turning our will in our lives over the power creator and ourselves, you know, two and three risk of letting go of character defects. That would be six and seven.

Gary Burdell (10:19.438)
Mike, did you say that was a day at a time?

Mike(10:49.095)
The risks of making amends to people we've harmed eight nine The risk of admitting our wrongs. Hell that's pretty much all of them The risk of telling our stories that we carry the message of hope Yeah, so 12 basically, right?

Bill (10:58.227)
Hahaha!

Bill (11:03.971)
Right. Yeah. But that, yeah, all I wrote down was risk in the steps. So, I mean, that was kind of as you were reading it, I'm like, I got it. I can't write down all that stuff. But that's basically what it did. And it went through, you know, in maybe even in a vague, vague sense, sort of, you know, all the steps. So and there is, I mean, you know, I mean, to begin with, I think all three of us can probably, you know, agree on the fact that, you know, I don't know if we if I walked into a sand man, these steps are risky, but there was fear involved. That's for damn sure. Right.

Mike(11:19.751)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(11:30.307)
Sure. Yeah, I mean, it's it's taking a risk. It's it's doing things we've never done before. You know, living a different way, man. Of course. Yeah, it's risky and it's, you know, we're drunks and junkies. We don't want to change and we don't want to get out of our comfort zone. The whole point of getting a load is to make ourselves comfortable. Right. But now we can't. We have to take risks. I mean.

Bill (11:48.435)
Ha ha ha ha.

Mike(11:59.975)
Bo used to say it all the time. I mean, she was, you know, she said my first year and a half of being sober, I was totally uncomfortable all the time. And I used to tell the guys from my group, man, it's like, look, you have to get uncomfortable. It's okay. We all did. You know, yeah, for me, definitely first year of being sober, I was uncomfortable a lot of the time. And that's what I had to do. Because again,

The whole point of the way I lived my life before I got sober was trying to make myself as comfortable as I could all the fucking time. And that doesn't work. It doesn't. You have no growth and and you end up being miserable. I like being uncomfortable once in a while. Also, you know, but you got to remember, once you get through all that today, I'm.

very comfortable in my own skin and in my way of life and yes and the material stuff you know I could I could use a few more nicer things but the things that I have I'm quite comfortable with so right.

Bill (12:59.059)
Hahaha.

Bill (13:05.779)
Well, that was one of the things we had talked about a couple of different times. I know that, you know, Marty, when we were still at the Keating Center, actually in the sober living facility, seemed like every time that, you know, we, anyone, not just us, but you got comfortable doing one of the jobs or doing a duty or doing something like that, he'd switch it up, you know. And, you know, he would do that all the time because he, you know, he used to, I think he used to actually say that, you know, you're getting comfortable or I want you to get comfortable or...

Mike(13:22.839)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(13:33.639)
Right?

Bill (13:34.291)
you know, all that stuff. And, you know, he was, he was training us again to be, to be human, you know, cause we weren't. but yeah, I mean, did you run into that too, Gary? I mean, with either, either people, and I'll just say forcing change or, you know, being uncomfortable right away.

Mike(13:40.391)
Mm -hmm.

Gary Burdell (13:51.246)
Well, I was uncomfortable coming in on the first meeting. Talk about risk. Yeah, take a big risk doing that. Just coming in the program is a risk. And one of the I heard that in the in the first year, get comfortable with being uncomfortable. You know, pain is the touchstone of growth. So, yes, I was very uncomfortable, especially that first year. The first six months were, you know, what the hell? But like Mike just said,

Bill (13:53.843)
Hahaha!

Mike(13:54.887)
Right?

Mike(14:04.807)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (14:14.003)
Heheheheh

Gary Burdell (14:20.43)
One of the biggest things this past year in particular is I've gotten to a point in my sobriety where I'm really comfortable in my skin and very calm and serene. And that's because I've taken a lot of risks over the past six years to do the work necessary to get to that point and to learn how to...

Mike(14:43.143)
Mm -hmm.

Gary Burdell (14:48.014)
like myself and how to take care of myself and let go of a big part of this past year has been all about surrender and letting go of the outcome, letting go of people pleasing, letting go of having to take care of everyone else and take care of myself instead. That's been a big part of that. But there was a huge risk when I first came in, yes. And then I took, I've,

continue to take risks and the things that I think are risks. Like coming on here, I'm learning how to use my voice, especially in my new position at work. It's been a challenge to speak up and say what I think. And it's nice to come on here and be able to speak and express my opinion and to be okay with that. Because growing up, that was something that I...

Mike(15:43.943)
Right.

Gary Burdell (15:47.182)
that was not allowed. And I've gotten to a point in sobriety, which this is going to sound awful, but I just don't fucking care anymore.

Mike(15:56.487)
Sounds pretty damn good to me.

Bill (15:57.127)
That's...

Gary Burdell (16:00.014)
Well, but.

Bill (16:00.211)
Yeah, and that's not awful because the getting to a point, it was probably, it wasn't even from a sobriety standpoint per se. I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't, but probably about like a handful of years ago, maybe even longer ago than that, you know, I thought the same thing, you know, when it comes to, you know, like relationships and things like that. Not I mean with family, but I'm talking about with a, you know, like a dating relationship or something like that. You wonder, you know, why did this work out or does this work out or will this work out? Finally, I'm like, fuck it, man. I mean, I take care of myself.

in the way that I want to keep myself healthy. I'm not perfect. I don't have perfect whatevers, you know, from anything from top to bottom, head to toe, inside or out. None of me is perfect, but then again, who is, right? You know, but I also got to the point where I'm like, you know what, fuck them. You know, if somebody doesn't like me, I don't give a fuck, you know. I'll try to figure out why, see if it was something that I did to offend a person, because I don't want to do that, you know. I mean, I...

It's fun being a dick every once in a while, because I mean, we talk about that all the time. It is fun, you know, but I don't want to be an overt dick, you know, just in a general sense to anyone or everyone, you know. So, but it is, I mean, not caring about outside influences like that. It's a freedom. I mean, it's a huge amount of freedom and there's growth in that too. I mean, there really is.

Gary Burdell (17:02.318)
No pf to make amends.

Gary Burdell (17:22.414)
Yes, totally agree with that. It's big, huge freedom.

Mike(17:26.151)
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, like you alluded to, you know, yes, we don't want to be that asshole that we were. But with with doing the next right thing, with with that, that knowledge that you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, that's where that freedom comes where, you know, right. Somebody doesn't like you. It's like, well, fuck, man, I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. I know I'm doing what I'm supposed to do.

Gary Burdell (17:32.301)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(17:53.511)
Again that comfortable in my skin and because I'm doing the right thing I don't have all that anxiety because I'm doing bad things. Right that comes with it. I'm what I'm doing the right thing. So fuck you If you don't like if you don't like the fact that I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing then get the fuck away from me

Bill (18:09.043)
Hahaha!

Bill (18:16.563)
Right. Well, and even even doing this and I'm glad you brought that up, Gary, because it was I don't know if if it was to begin with with Mike and I, we first started doing it because it when when we did it, we were literally on our phone. So it was almost the feeling. And correct me if I'm wrong, Mike, but it was kind of like just a feeling like he and I were just having a private phone call. And we just happened to be recording it. And, you know, we kept that for the most part, we kept that mindset and then.

Mike(18:37.575)
Right?

Bill (18:44.403)
You know, every once in a while, you know, we, we talked to the, the audience, quote unquote, staff for everyone out there. We'll explain what we're talking about, but nine times out of 10. I mean, yeah, I'm staring at a computer. I see him. I'm in a studio and all those sorts of things. And I know that people are end up listening to it, but that was the whole point. It, it was, I don't know if I thought about it as much as a, as a risk, but there was a, a real run as to what we were talking about to begin with. And I remember that the story that.

Mike(18:48.615)
Mm.

Mike(19:09.959)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (19:12.467)
And Mike brought it up when we were talking about regaining or getting a relationship back. And then, I mean, we're just talking and all of a sudden Mike's like, well, you happen to be the one that's got the best story about that. Why don't you talk about that? And I'm like, in my head, I'm like, well, fuck me. And I'm like, OK. And I did this like slow lead in and then I explained it. I'm like, the reason I'm doing a slow lead is because I'm going to talk to my daughter about this. And if she doesn't want to listen to it, I'm giving her time to turn that turn this the fuck off, you know.

Mike(19:40.295)
Mm -hmm.

Gary Burdell (19:40.43)
Yep.

Bill (19:41.299)
I didn't say anything that she didn't know, but I didn't know if she wanted to listen to it. But the same thing is Mike and I have decided that we talk about our part of the story. I've talked about my ex -wives, I've talked about my kids, but I don't, I won't tell my ex -wife stories. I won't tell my kids stories or their part in it, you know, because it's not my place, you know? And if, if a story is, I don't know if a story would seem incomplete, you know, without.

having their part that I just don't fucking tell it, you know? So, but there is, there was a, when we were listening back to, I know when I was listening back to some of them to begin with, I'm like, I can't believe we fucking talked about that because we don't think about it. But even though we don't edit, and I mean, we're both very proud of that, we know that we have the ability at any point, if something is said, we can say, okay, that's got to drop. I can figure out an easy way to do it, I can cut it out.

Mike(20:12.903)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(20:21.863)
Hehehehehe

Bill (20:38.291)
At this point, we're 117 episodes in and we've never had to do that yet. You know, and I don't see it happening. The only way I would ever see it happening is if we had a guest that came on, started just talking shit, and then all of a sudden said, you know what, you guys need to fucking delete that. And what I would do, I would end the studio, kick him the fuck out, we'd start a new one, and I would never, I wouldn't even put it up, you know? Yeah, I'd be fine. You're done, you know? But that's the other thing is that,

Mike(20:42.567)
Nope. Right.

Mike(20:54.727)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(20:59.079)
Yeah, it would be gone.

Gary Burdell (20:59.086)
Don't look back.

Bill (21:05.875)
We do in, you know, I know Mike to begin with, no other podcast out there that's telling people to stop listening, but, I'm sure there's gotta be, there's gotta be somebody out there. Well, I know there are, there's consultants and all these different things, people that this is how you start a podcast. This is what you do. They probably cry or cringe at least if they listen to what we do, but fuck it. It doesn't matter. We're small. You know, we're, we're having a good time and we're reaching nothing else, a core group of people. And that's enough, right?

Mike(21:34.791)
Mm hmm. Absolutely. Well, and you know, because it is recovery based because we're based in the 12 steps and stuff basically. And that's sort of the theme of this podcast. Right. It's the first word, you know, right. You know, it's it it is 12 step work for us. It is certainly for me. And so there's a there's a level of honesty that has to come with that.

Gary Burdell (21:35.758)
Totally.

Bill (21:47.283)
It's got the word sober in it.

Mike(22:04.071)
And I think we live up to that most of the time. you know, I mean, clearly there are things that we don't talk about on here that, you know, I'm happy in our lives or whatever. you know, there's stuff going on in my life right now that I haven't brought up on here. maybe if we're doing this in a couple more years, I'll be able to go back and talk about it. but right now it's just not appropriate for the people involved. So I don't, but,

Yeah, you know, but as far as the recovery stuff goes again that level of honesty that has to be there Built into it because that's how we were taught to do this thing is to be honest, you know you're giving a lead man. Be honest be brief and be seated Right, so yeah, I think that's that's where that comes from with us is that inherent honesty that has to be there?

Bill (22:50.003)
Right, right. Yeah.

Gary Burdell (22:50.638)
Hahaha.

Bill (23:02.163)
Yeah, the only thing that we go outside of is after 20 minutes, it's all bullshit. And I mean, we go, you know, go three times that. So it is at least three quarters of this is, you know, earth. Two thirds of this is bullshit anyhow, if not all of its bullshit. So, you know, we're we're we're understanding and going into effect. It is all fucking bullshit anyhow. Spickled in with a little bit of recovery. Just to just to make it.

Mike(23:07.271)
Hehehehehe

Mike(23:14.887)
Two -thirds.

Mike(23:26.119)
Mm -hmm.

Gary Burdell (23:27.118)
Well, if you're not honest and open and don't share like that, then people aren't gonna relate to it either. Same thing in a meeting. Yeah. And that's part of that risk is putting yourself out there. And it's been interesting that the more I do that, the more people actually respect and respond better. Like when you speak up and say what you think instead of trying to say what you think they want you to say, they respond 100 % better. And it's...

Mike(23:31.847)
Exactly. Yeah, then it's useless. Yeah.

Bill (23:32.339)
Right? Right. Yeah. And then it's just every...

Mike(23:46.215)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(23:52.327)
Mmm.

Gary Burdell (23:57.246)
There's so much in the program that is oxymorons or I like to call it magic, but it's stuff that doesn't make sense. Like you said, it's AA math that doesn't add up, but it works. And as long as it works, then I just keep doing it.

Mike(24:02.662)
Mm.

-huh. Yep.

Bill (24:07.987)
Haha.

Mike(24:15.847)
And absolutely, you know, and you were saying that, you know, it's the response is 100 % better. And you know what? Even when those responses are negative, you know, it's still 100 % better. It's like, OK, you know where you stand with these people. And that's that's what I want. I want to know where I stand. And if I if, you know, hopefully it's positive and and I'm helping them and they're helping me. But if not, I want to know that, too, because you know what I wasted.

Gary Burdell (24:25.262)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(24:43.303)
Decades of my life and I'm getting fucking old and I don't have the time or the energy to waste anymore

Gary Burdell (24:52.206)
Yes.

Bill (24:52.527)
Right. Well, and there's there's people out there that that want, you know, individuals to to parrot back to them exactly how they act and feel and say and all that sort of things. But they're narcissists and I don't want to be around them. You know, I mean, because I was, you know, 100 percent a fucking narcissist, you know, and I fully admitted that I'm an egotist still better than I was recovering egotist. But I am I'm a fucking egotist. I know it.

Mike(25:06.695)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (25:22.387)
more controlled and I've got people like Mike and other people in my life, they call me on my shit, so that helps, but people who just want to hear what they say, I have no desire to be around them, because again, I was that guy and I could see myself and it not only makes me uncomfortable, I despise people like that because I hated that. Looking back, I'm not a fan of that person that I was at all. But yeah, so that reading.

Mike(25:35.751)
Mm -mm.

Bill (25:51.731)
Of course, the first part, I just wrote, just get on. And of course, where my mind went about the same way this morning and just leave that alone. Trying to be professional here. We have a guest. But no, anything else, either one of you guys on the reading or anything else that kind of stood out or either made sense or more conversation?

Mike(25:58.343)
Right? Mm -hmm.

Mike(26:03.879)
Hehehehehe

Gary Burdell (26:15.502)
Just that I'm grateful I took the risk.

Bill (26:17.81)
Right, yeah exactly and continue to take the risk, right?

Mike(26:17.991)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Gary Burdell (26:22.574)
It doesn't feel like risk anymore. The work that I do to stay sober and to continue my serenity does not feel like work. I really enjoy doing it. There are, that's not to say that it's all, you know, what do you call it, strawberries and orgasms, rainbows and unicorns. It's not, some of it is work. And there's times that I have to do work that I don't necessarily want to do.

Mike(26:24.455)
Right.

Mike(26:39.047)
Right.

Bill (26:39.315)
Yeah, Heidi.

Mike(26:45.735)
Mm -hmm.

Gary Burdell (26:49.102)
But I know I need to do it. And I know on the other side of that, because I've been around long enough to know it's going to be a lot better than it was if I didn't do the work. So I don't, I'm not comfortable sitting in my shit anymore. I'm not.

Mike(26:49.255)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(26:59.655)
Absolutely. Right. And so it's not. Yeah, right, right. And because we've proven to ourselves by doing the work, it's not risky. Like you said, it's not always easy and it's it's certainly not always comfortable, but it's not really a risk because we it's been proven to us over and over again that if we do this shit, it will work. So it's not really a risk. It's just kind of a drag sometimes.

Bill (27:03.987)
Hahaha!

Gary Burdell (27:20.334)
Mm -hmm.

Gary Burdell (27:28.654)
Yeah, sometimes it's not fun.

Bill (27:30.963)
Yeah, I mean, there's plenty of pleasurable things in my life, you know, outside of recovery that I'm like, I don't feel like going to do this. But then when you get involved in it, you know, you enjoy yourself, you have fun and all that sort of things. But in, you know, anything in recovery is the same way. And that's a good point that you say that about the risk, because I don't really think about any part of recovery, like you said, being a risk or even being work. I just like all that the shit that I do in the morning, the short set of prayers or the readings or whatever. It's 20 minutes that I know I have to do. Fucking Instagram and fucking Facebook.

Mike(27:39.943)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (28:01.011)
those things are work, but I'm doing them for this thing too, which is part of the recovery thing. So, but those are more work and more dreadful to me than, you know, the do in my readings, you know, but it just, it's all becomes habit anyhow. So it's not a bad.

Gary Burdell (28:16.462)
Yep, over time. Like I said, I enjoy, you know, 95 % of it I enjoy a lot. And we don't have to do it alone either. So when I do need to do the work, I have a sponsor, I've got other people on my network that I reach out to and say, help me with this. And I'm working through this. And how did you do this? So that I can figure out how to get that done. And applying the steps over time, like the principal parts.

Bill (28:18.099)
Yeah, exactly.

Bill (28:22.963)
Hahaha!

Mike(28:25.767)
Right.

Mike(28:42.247)
Mm -hmm.

Gary Burdell (28:43.342)
I've done that so many times. It's not, it's just become a habit. A lot of it has become a habit. And, interestingly, like, someone at work the other day, I can kind of guide them through like that path a little bit and not have to necessarily say, tell them I'm sober and go through the whole steps, but it's kind of like, did you look at it? Have you looked at it like this? You know, or that is out of your control. You don't have any control over that.

Mike(29:04.839)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (29:05.683)
Hahaha.

Mike(29:11.495)
Right.

Gary Burdell (29:13.454)
And it's interesting to watch people think about that, that aren't in the program. I found ways to talk about it without it being like, what the hell are you talking about? And to me, that just shows a maturity in that I'm actually incorporating this and doing step 12 and incorporating that end of my life, which makes it much better.

Mike(29:21.927)
hehehehe hehehe he

Bill (29:22.003)
Heheheheh

Mike(29:30.871)
Absolutely.

Bill (29:35.471)
yeah, absolutely.

Gary Burdell (29:36.718)
And maybe I've sent a picture of a couple pages of daily readers either, too. So I'm like, hey, you might want to read this. Usually I send Ellen on, though. But.

Mike(29:40.999)
You might want to take a look at this. You might want to take a look at yourself. Right.

Bill (29:41.395)
Hahaha!

Bill (29:45.299)
So, Gary, you said that you had a couple of topics. Are there topics or things that you wanted to go through or go over? Yeah, whatever. I mean, it's again, like, yeah, because when Mike, when he was texting me and saying, you got a format thing, I'm like, I've listened long enough. And he's like, yeah, he goes, no, I get it. There is no real format. So I'm like, yeah, whatever. If Mike wants to do the reading again, not all about you, I get it. Thank you. And then,

Gary Burdell (29:57.262)
sure there's stuff I can bring up if you want.

Mike(30:14.343)
Yeah.

Bill (30:14.739)
You know, I said anything from there, I'm like, this, whatever, man, we'll shoot your shit and take it as it comes. So yeah, whatever you got, man.

Gary Burdell (30:19.726)
Sure. Well, I appreciate you doing the reading, Mike, because I always enjoy that opening now. When I listened to you guys, I did think about y 'all because two weeks ago I went to another retreat. A friend of mine that actually lives in Alabama that went to Winter Awakening had texted me and said, this one is called the Highlands Retreat. It's where we used to go at Winter Awakening, so it was weird being there when it was warm. But I didn't realize.

Bill (30:30.899)
Nice.

Mike(30:30.983)
Mmm.

Mike(30:46.023)
Hmm.

Gary Burdell (30:48.782)
Until like the week before because I was just fed up with everybody and everything and I didn't it's nice to go and be surrounded by recovery and people that get it and I met some really cool people that the really cool part was that I wasn't afraid And so I wasn't afraid to talk to people and I met a whole bunch of people and I talked to a lot of them

Mike(31:00.103)
Mm -hmm.

Right.

Gary Burdell (31:17.07)
One of which I made some, a couple of friends there and we've been in touch ever since. even though he lives in Atlanta, but, we kind of like clicked and it's, it's neat to have somebody reflect back to you that doesn't know your journey, what you're like. And I actually sent him the podcast. And so his, his response was you were angry and you swear. He's like, you were so calm all weekend. I was like, well, I was at a retreat and it was wonderful.

Mike(31:39.503)
Right, -huh.

Bill (31:39.731)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Heheheheh

Gary Burdell (31:47.31)
And that place up there is just amazing. I love the mountain. It's a beautiful place. And it's neat to be there when it's warm. And we did a labyrinth walk, which was super cool. And it was just nice to be surrounded by recovery. The other fun story is, and I'm sure my sponsor will listen to this and probably yell at me, but I got to make him turn red because he picked up his four -year chip up there. The Wednesday prior was his four years.

Mike(32:02.439)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(32:12.743)
nice.

Bill (32:13.139)
Nice.

Gary Burdell (32:16.718)
And he didn't know I had it with me. And so I volunteered to give out the chips. They do CMA meeting the first night, CMA style meeting and AA style the next night. So the chips are very similar. So when I got to, you know, is anyone picking up two years, anyone picking up three years? And right then he understood that I was going to give it out in front of everybody. And he just turned like eight shades of red. And it was great. So that, that was super nice. And we actually wrote up there together.

Mike(32:35.495)
Hehehehehe

Bill (32:35.635)
Hahaha!

Gary Burdell (32:45.934)
And that was something I wanted to ask you guys. I know, Bill, you don't sponsor anybody. Mike, you've sponsored some people. I don't know if that person is still around.

Mike(32:53.415)
I have. I mean, I've sponsored, hell, I've probably sponsored a couple of dozen people. There is one that is still sober. And it's funny because he pretty much did what I did. He, you know, he, early on, he asked me questions and took a little bit of direction and stuff. And then he went and did the work.

Gary Burdell (33:04.59)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(33:22.599)
And so I'm still in touch with them. We certainly don't talk like on a daily basis or anything crazy like that. But no, I mean, he's he's off living his life doing what he's supposed to do. He's still involved in the program, still does the work on a daily basis. And yeah, you know, it's great. But again, I didn't do a whole hell of a lot. I was just kind of there early on like I needed. And he went and did the work. Like I said, I've had a bunch of them.

I had one recently, my most recent one. I worked with him pretty intensely for about a month. He disappeared, went back out, came crawling back in as we do, luckily. And he showed up at my home group and he like, you know, was blowing some smoke and said,

Bill (34:16.115)
Hehehe.

Mike(34:17.255)
He said, yeah, he had gone back into the sober house that he was at before, which is near my home group. so a lot of those guys go there and, he said, yeah, well then I'm transferring out to this, other sober house out in Elyria. And I said, cool. call me when you get there. Haven't heard from them since. So, you know, right.

Gary Burdell (34:36.878)
Yeah.

Bill (34:37.171)
Yeah, so I, he's the one that I met when I was there, right? I did, because I remember you saying he was going out there because he was a family member or something like that, that wasn't doing, okay, okay.

Mike(34:44.615)
Yeah, there you go. Yeah. Right. Yep. Yep. I mean, the thing is, I don't chase guys down. That's you know, that's the way I was taught, you know, of the guys that showed me how to do this. They said, you know, they looked at me square in the eye and said, I don't want what you have. So. Right. Yeah, exactly. You want what I have. So do what I do. And that's the way I sponsor.

Bill (34:48.915)
Yeah, and...

Gary Burdell (34:51.63)
Mm -mm.

Bill (35:02.867)
Hahaha!

Gary Burdell (35:06.094)
That's an interesting way to put it.

Bill (35:07.859)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(35:13.447)
So, you know, I'm not chasing anybody down. You know where I'm at. I'm available all the time. Always have been, you know, I mean, shit, my my phone number and address are on Facebook. I do that for a reason. You know, I am real fucking easy to find. Here I am. You know, you want what I have. Come get it. I'm more than willing to give it to you, but you got to come get it. Then. Yeah, right.

Gary Burdell (35:37.006)
Yeah, you gotta be willing. That's usually what I do. If someone asks me to sponsor them, I usually meet with them and go over that first, because that's what my sponsor did with me, both of them. And so, go ahead.

Mike(35:45.191)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (35:50.323)
And there was a couple of guys, maybe three that I sponsored before I moved back to Wisconsin from Cleveland. Maybe four, I think, if I had three for sure. Nah, four. But none of them stayed sober or worse over at the time I left. And one in particular I've seen a number of times when I've come back over the last, again, 14 years and, you know, a person's got a year, they get six months or they're back at the Keating Center, which...

Mike(36:12.647)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (36:19.795)
Again, at least they made it back, you know. But I had a guy, had two people approach me when I was, I was secretarying a meeting when I was in Wisconsin for, I don't know, probably three or four years. And one guy in particular came up to me after I led at an open meeting. Same deal, you know, I'm like, okay, here, we went upstairs, I ended up buying him a big book. And right off the bat when I was saying, you know, told him the meetings I went to, and he's like, well, he worked at a

It was like a sales rep at a furniture store. He's like, well, my late nights are this and this is my schedule. And I'm like, okay, well, here's the deal. I said, here's what I'm here. Here's my phone number. I did ask him for his and I'm like, here's where I am, you know, and I saw him for like two weeks at a row and then didn't see it again, you know, but it's a, it is a deal. And we had even our sponsor, Joe, who are our grand sponsor is Bob, who is Joe's sponsor.

Joe flipped in and out for a number of years and he always tells a story in his lead about when he came back the last time and Bob actually told him on the phone, he goes, I don't think I can help you. You gotta go find somebody else. He literally made Joe beg him to be a sponsor again and humbled his ass. I mean, for the last time, humbled him and our sponsor Joe has got, he's got three or five years on us, Mike.

Mike(37:45.223)
yeah, something like that. Right. I think. Yeah.

Bill (37:47.379)
Somewhere in that area. Yeah, he's a, but he's, he's been around a bit. He's a really good dude. Same deal. You know, I mean, he's, he, he told, I don't remember if it was both of us or me or whatever it was at one point, probably both of us, you know, we said, we were talking about something in a meeting after, after I had been in Wisconsin for a handful of years. And he said, he goes, he goes, I'll always be your sponsor unless you tell me not to be. He goes, if you tell me to fuck off and you don't want me to be your sponsor anymore, fine. He goes, whether.

Gary Burdell (37:47.886)
17, okay.

Mike(38:11.431)
Right.

Bill (38:15.539)
whether you're here, whether I'm in your life every day, because I'm always going to be your sponsor unless you tell me not to be, which is really cool. And these, he's just, these are the type of guys that, you know, we, we thankfully had the, the pleasure, you know, and, you know, the pleasure, you know, being able to be raised around, you know,

Mike(38:21.063)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mike(38:30.119)
Yeah, absolutely. pure fucking luck, man. We had, you know, guys that didn't take any shit because they knew, you know, they knew, man, they were exactly like us and they knew what it took to stay sober. And, you know, again, you want what I have, do what I do, you know, and I don't want what you have because I had it and I fucking gave it up and I'm glad I did.

Bill (38:35.411)
yeah.

Bill (38:39.227)
Right.

Bill (38:52.527)
Yeah, that's that's just fucking perfect. I don't I don't remember I mean, I'm I'm sure somebody I'm sure I was wrong when somebody said that I just don't I don't remember hearing that but that's I could easily picture and hear any one of them saying something like that. So it's yeah. I wouldn't doubt it. Yeah. Yeah, Bob's what's Bob got 30 years now.

Gary Burdell (38:58.254)
I'm gonna borrow that.

like that.

Mike(39:09.991)
Mm -hmm. Right. I'm pretty sure Bob is where that came from. Right. I don't want what you have.

Yeah, something like that, right? Yeah. Yep. Well, yeah, cause he had 18 when, when we came in. So yeah. Yeah. But right after that summer, he had 18. Yeah. Cause he was blowing off that potato gun in the Keating center parking lot. Yep. And they're blowing shit up. Yep.

Bill (39:21.939)
He's got AF, you know, 30 plus. he's, he's.

Gary Burdell (39:23.182)
Wow, that's great.

Bill (39:29.075)
Did he really? Fuck. Okay.

Bill (39:35.103)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, fucking 18 year old 18 years soberies guys are acting like a couple of drunks Yeah, like a couple of active drunks in the parking lot blowing off a potato gun. So yeah, it was it was pretty funny

Gary Burdell (39:37.55)
Hahaha!

Gary Burdell (39:45.614)
having fun!

Gary Burdell (39:50.414)
except sober, you can actually aim it and not try and kill someone with it. Or blow yourself up.

Mike(39:53.255)
Right.

Bill (39:54.323)
Right, yeah, well, Kathy's, her ex Mark built one and it was actually really cool. When they lived on, they lived on a small, small -ish lake. And yeah, we used to shoot that off of their, off to their porch at the lake at Sea Alp Ark and go out. There was geese on there that he never liked. So he's shoot it at the, you know, in front of them, you know, just to scare them off of there and try to figure out, put the fear of God in.

in the geese so they wouldn't come back and shit all over the pier, but it never worked. And it was, no, no, it was fucking fun. I mean, you know, I don't know how many fucking bags of potatoes, pounds of potatoes we'd go through, you know, probably, I don't know, however many cases of beer and then, you know, 27 pounds of potatoes is a lot of fun. But yeah, it was, it was good. So what do you think Mike, should we, would this be a good point?

Gary Burdell (40:24.59)
I was going to say, did that work? I doubt it. They always come back.

Mike(40:26.503)
Of course not.

Mike(40:48.871)
I believe it would be. It would be a good point. Yeah, let's do it, man. All right. Stay tuned for more Sober Not Mature right after these words from our sponsor.

Bill (40:50.675)
All right.

Bill (41:07.955)
All right everyone, welcome back and yeah, smooth, smooth, smooth, smooth. After this word from our sponsor. But now, so anyhow, I didn't mean to interrupt you Gary, it just seemed like a good point in looking at the time. So the retreat and you wrote up with your sponsor, I think I interrupted or we interrupted part of that story. Responsee, I'm sorry, yes.

Mike(41:11.975)
Yeah, sure. Why not?

Gary Burdell (41:19.886)
That's okay.

Gary Burdell (41:26.574)
Yeah, I wrote up with a sponsor. So I was just going to say that the cool part about sponsoring is, A, your sponsors can keep you sober. And I get almost as much or more out of it than they do. And I never understood that when my sponsor used to tell me that until I started sponsoring people. And then I called them and I was like, I get this. And it's a totally different way to do the steps. And I just had one finish.

Mike(41:36.935)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (41:42.707)
god yeah.

Mike(41:45.991)
Mm -hmm.

Gary Burdell (41:56.782)
She just finished all 12 steps. And so she's in that spot where she is, she wants to help everybody. And I'm like, you gotta let them come to you. They gotta have willingness. Like you cannot be more sober than they are. You cannot work their program for them. I've tried that. Like just trust me. She's like, that sounds so bad.

Mike(42:06.311)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(42:10.183)
Right?

Bill (42:10.483)
Ha ha ha ha.

Mike(42:19.111)
Mm -hmm. All right. Well, and I've got to throw in here. Okay, she's been through the steps the first time. She better not be done with them. I hate that. I hate when I hear it from the podium. I hate when anybody says it. It just bothers the hell out of me. Because yeah, we never fit, you know, the way we were taught, we do four, five and eight to the best of our ability and we never have to do them again. But the rest of the steps, we got to work every day, one day at a time for the rest of our lives.

Gary Burdell (42:27.534)
She's not. She's not.

Bill (42:27.699)
I knew that was coming.

Gary Burdell (42:43.118)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(42:48.903)
Okay, I'm done.

Gary Burdell (42:49.07)
And I think I've told more than 10 people that. Like I listen to this podcast and this very smart man says the following.

Mike(42:51.943)
Good.

Bill (42:52.787)
Yeah.

Mike(42:55.847)
I don't know about that.

Bill (42:56.659)
He's, he's a, he's see now that that's a good opportunity to say he's stolen some wonderful information, you know, and, and we're able to, we're able to parent it off to other people and make it appear that it's our own, but we never take credit for it. That's for damn sure.

Mike(43:03.367)
Thank you. Yes.

That's right. Yeah.

Mike(43:11.943)
Right. Yep. And what I say, trust me, nothing original because everything that's original out of this head's fucked up.

Gary Burdell (43:12.686)
I always give you guys credit for what you say.

Bill (43:16.467)
Hahaha.

Gary Burdell (43:20.206)
Mine's not original either. We just carry the message onto the next person and do it to the best for our ability. But I know that that's a big part of my recovery is having Sponsys. Sorry, Bill.

Bill (43:29.203)
Well, it was it was funny too, because I'm sure why.

Bill (43:36.179)
Yeah, absolutely. And you know what? No, no, no, that's fine. And because I heard a little bit of almost a weirdness. You guys hear any weirdness in the audio or no?

Mike(43:45.351)
Nope, not on my end.

Gary Burdell (43:46.798)
I haven't.

Bill (43:50.419)
Okay, because I'm not sure if now I now I feel like we might be delayed a little bit. So which is going to be weird because of course we

Mike(43:54.695)
I believe we are, you glitch glitch glitch.

Bill (43:59.411)
hang on one second here. Let me try one thing. So look at this, Gary. You get to, you get to be part of, part of this whole thing. I'm going to try to pause our, pause our uploads and see if that, see if that helps. Give me one second. But that was weird. Just.

Gary Burdell (44:05.486)
Yeah.

Gary Burdell (44:11.694)
Okay, I'm not experiencing a delay, but...

Bill (44:16.563)
Yeah, I think you are, because you answered me a little bit delayed, but that's okay. I'm just doing a couple of things here real quick. But okay, let's give that a whirl. We're on, everyone's still there?

Mike(44:31.399)
Yep.

Gary Burdell (44:31.63)
I am.

Bill (44:32.819)
Okay, I think that money helped. So all that I did, Gary, just to know at the end, which you're going to stick around after we're done anyhow, but it'll just take a couple of minutes for the recordings to load up. So not a big deal. But yeah, you know, and the thing of it is I never had, I wasn't trying to shy away from sponsoring people, but to begin with, I remember I had one guy ask me, and to begin with, it was, it was a fear thing. I'm like, I didn't feel like I was ready. I was probably like a year and a half sober, I think at the time.

Gary Burdell (44:42.734)
That's fine.

Bill (45:01.683)
maybe even a year and a couple of months, whatever it was. But then I think if it wasn't, Mike, if it wasn't you and I, it was you and somebody else, or me and somebody else that talked about it. And they're like, what do you got to lose, man? Just try to help the guy out if nothing else. And don't put a name on it, don't put a label on it. And it was cool, but it was a fear. But, it is. But the same thing, getting...

Mike(45:15.655)
Right.

Gary Burdell (45:23.636)
it's scary as crap, the first one.

Mike(45:26.119)
Sure.

Bill (45:30.323)
getting up and leading, you know, go into a meeting, getting involved in a meeting, sponsoring, doing this. I mean, all of this is, you know, both of us have come into this podcast, you know, fucking tired and long weeks and all those sort of things. And I've never walked away from this, you know, feeling worse. It's we get a feeling of worth after we're done. Same thing as a meeting or leading or anything like that. And that goes back to what you were saying, Gary, is the fact that it...

It does, it does as much if not more for us as it does for the person or people we're attempting to help. It's great.

Gary Burdell (46:04.462)
that we're helping.

Again, more risks. Risks in the rewards all comes back.

Bill (46:09.907)
Haha, right.

Well, and that's the other thing too, the fear of, well, will this person drink again? Will they go out? Am I going to do a good enough job? That's not the job of being a sponsor. It's to do the best, yeah, doing the best of your ability. And the person chooses to, Mike, you said it perfectly about the guy that you're talking about to begin with, is that you gave him some suggestions, you were there and he went out and he did the work. That's what it takes. So.

Gary Burdell (46:20.654)
Not up to me.

Mike(46:35.143)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Gary Burdell (46:37.966)
I always tell them that we can't break them any worse than they've already done to themselves. Like think about what you did before you came in. They're like, like, yeah, like you can't break them any worse. If anything, anything you're going to help.

Mike(46:41.767)
I would tell myself that. Right.

Bill (46:41.971)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Bill (46:46.803)
Right?

Bill (46:53.011)
Exactly.

Mike(46:53.127)
Well, again, and it comes down to the control thing too, right? Yeah. We're not, we're not going to get them sober. We're not going to get them drunk and we're not going to break them anymore. They could break themselves more. You know, we understand that, but yes, we're not going to break them more. If we're going to, if nothing else, we're going to plant a seed and if, you know, if they move, you know, they could be across the country, across the world. And that seed we planted might grow.

Gary Burdell (46:55.822)
Yeah.

Mike(47:19.367)
You know, and we'll never know. And that's okay too, because it's not about me. It's about just passing this shit along, man. Spreading the word, spreading the good news. There is a solution. Yeah. Right.

Bill (47:28.563)
Hehehehehe

Gary Burdell (47:31.662)
There is.

Bill (47:31.887)
Right. So, so question, Gary, because you said she is there and because Mike and I had talked about this and it was based on, I mean, well, we've talked about it probably outside of it, but I listened to a podcast where there was a male sponsor, female sponsor type of thing. Is there any type of because I mean, the general consensus always is guys with guys, you know, women with women type of thing. Is there any type of where? Well, clearly not.

Gary Burdell (47:34.958)
Mm -hmm. Yes.

Bill (47:57.971)
But is there is there any type of I don't know stigma or mindset of? How that sponsor and sponsor relationship should be men women and that sort of thing

Gary Burdell (48:08.366)
Well, as a gay male, I kind of break that mold a little bit. So this is what was interesting. Not to tell her story, but I don't think she would mind. She did rehab in Charlotte. And the lady that ran the rehab center here would bring a group of girls to my home group meeting. And that's how we met. And I told my story, and she came up to me afterwards and asked me to sponsor her.

Mike(48:12.871)
Mm -hmm, right.

Bill (48:13.203)
Hahaha!

Gary Burdell (48:38.286)
And at that point I wasn't ready to sponsor people. Like I just, and she was in rehab and I was in my head. I was doing what my partner calls a gary. so the worst case scenario is like, I'm not going to be able to get there. And I don't know how I'm going to see her and how are we going to, you know, how are you going to call me? And it just was way too much. so I was like, that's fine. I'll give you my number. We can stay in touch. And we did. So when she got out of rehab, she moved, I don't remember where she moved to, but.

Bill (48:51.635)
Hahaha.

Gary Burdell (49:07.118)
I know where she lives now. And it's a couple hours from Charlotte. And she stayed sober, and we contacted each other every so often, once a week -ish, just texting. And then I lost touch with her, and then she called me. This is probably eight months ago, nine months ago. And she just was miserable. And she's like, I don't know who else to contact. And she hadn't gone to any meetings.

She didn't have anybody in her sober network. I mean, she stayed sober. and so she's like, I just don't know what to do. And so we talked every night on the phone for like a week and she finally said, will you sponsor me? And I said, well, let me ask. So then, you know, my first thought's not always my best. So I called my sponsor and I called my grand sponsor and, we talked about it. And so I just, we laid some basic ground rules.

Mike(49:48.295)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Gary Burdell (50:03.022)
I mean, she has a fiance, so there's not, you know, I'm not interested in having anything but a sponsorship with her. And I don't see her really in person. I brought her to winter awakening and that was cool. And she opened her up into like, there's all these people out there in recovery. And I was like, yeah, I know you live in a small town and your home group is like four or five people, but there's a huge, huge world of sober people out there that you can contact.

Mike(50:03.079)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(50:12.583)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (50:15.731)
Nice.

Mike(50:27.431)
Mmm.

Mike(50:31.047)
Right.

Gary Burdell (50:32.59)
and they don't have to be in your backyard. And so we decided to work together. And then I started sending her, you know, we talk on the phone once a week and that's how we went through the steps. So I sent her worksheets and she did the work. Just like you said, she really did the work. That was wonderful. And she's so much better now.

Mike(50:48.551)
Great.

Bill (50:51.603)
Well, and that's why I asked the question because, I mean, so either way though, you did, you had a conversation with your sponsor and grand sponsor. And I'll be honest with you, there's this, again, this, and I don't know, good, bad, or indifferent, we can think about it and talk about it a hundred different ways, but there is a black and whiteness to the AA program and the big book and the quote unquote rules and all those sort of things, which.

Gary Burdell (50:58.414)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(51:16.487)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (51:17.491)
You know, don't necessarily, and again, even though these are suggestions, there's ways that people look at them. And I, we have, we have friends that are, that are gay. We have lesbian friends that, you know, are sponsored by women or men or that sort of thing. I don't know that we saw, and I could be wrong, Mike, but I don't know that we saw a lot of cross -sponsoring like that in Cleveland. I don't have an issue with it. Well, and I, I, well, right. Sure.

Mike(51:37.383)
All right.

Gary Burdell (51:38.606)
Typically you don't, and I wouldn't recommend it either. I could see where it would cross lines. And one of the things that I did talk to her about is that you need to find one or two or more women in recovery that you can develop a relationship with. So if something comes up where I don't understand what you're going through because I'm not a female, you have someone else to go to and say, this is what's going on with me, what did you do? And so that's...

Mike(51:40.327)
Right, yeah. Exactly.

Mike(51:52.295)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(52:06.118)
Mm -hmm.

Gary Burdell (52:08.142)
And we didn't really, we haven't run into that yet. and I just keep it sponsor, sponsor kind of thing. And it's, it's worked and everyone I've worked with, I'm like, let's try this. If it doesn't work, no harm, no foul. Like I won't. If you don't want me to sponsor you anymore, just like your, your sponsor said, tell me. So I won't lose sleep over it. I promise you we can still be friends. It's all good. You know? Yeah. I didn't in the beginning, the first few that.

Mike(52:15.287)
Yeah, absolutely.

Mike(52:22.375)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(52:31.395)
Right? I'll still stay sober. Right.

Bill (52:32.051)
Hahaha.

Gary Burdell (52:38.414)
kind of why I would ghost me and I was really, really pissed, but it's okay. He's still sober. So, and I learned to get over resentment that way. I mean, that's how we learn. So, but I was not happy. and that's just how we learned. So I hope that answers your question. I, it, it, I really had to think long and hard about it because, and I talked to her about it. I said, this, these are, these are my reservations of doing this, but if you want to try it, we will.

Mike(52:40.679)
Mm. Mm.

Well good.

Mm -hmm.

Bill (52:47.955)
Ha ha.

Bill (52:54.259)
Right. Yeah, it does. Yeah.

Mike(52:56.391)
No, absolutely.

Mike(53:02.343)
Mm -hmm.

Gary Burdell (53:07.63)
And she's just been amazing. And she's a big part of my sobriety and I love her dearly, but in sort of a sponsor -sponsee way, not anything else.

Mike(53:14.631)
I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I think that's the thing. I mean, I

especially us, you know, they don't have those relationships with other women. You know, most of, most alcoholic women and drug addict women don't like other women because they're competition and all that shit. No, seriously. And it's the same with guys, you know, I mean, it was for me. I mean, I kind of, I kind of walked that line the other side of it. I always have, you know, I mean, women were the things in my life and women, the women that I used and that I took advantage of and all of that.

Bill (53:55.535)
Right.

Gary Burdell (53:56.342)
Yeah, no.

Mike(54:12.423)
same with women, with guys, you know, in this thing. So it is, it's again, talking about risks. It was a risk for me to open up to another man. It was a risk, you know, it's a risk for a woman to open up to another woman and be able to trust them. And, you know, that's, that was a huge part of it for me, building, building actual relationships with other men, you know, that was not how I lived my life before I built relationships with women so that I could use them.

Gary Burdell (54:24.046)
Hmm.

Mike(54:42.119)
yeah, you know, so, you know, yes, and it's the sexual component and stuff. And God knows, man, early in recovery, we're all fucking raw nerves because we've taken the substances away and a real quick fix to not actually put the substance in, but get those endorphins and that dopamine going in your head is to have sex. so right. That's, that's kind of why it's suggested.

Gary Burdell (54:43.502)
True.

Bill (54:53.555)
Hahaha.

Mike(55:10.951)
that you stick with your own kind, whatever the hell that is, right? To work through these things. And like you said, Gary, because you have that experience, you know, you can't relate to a woman on a female level because you're not, right? I can't relate to, yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. You know, I can't relate. You know, I mean, it would be much easier for me in my early recovery to get a female sponsor because I know how to deal with women.

Gary Burdell (55:27.95)
Yeah, I'm not.

Mike(55:40.295)
I can't manipulate men the way. Right. Well, yeah. I've got, you know what, man? I've said this for a long time. If I, you know, I can't, you know, I was born a heterosexual, right? If I could have, you know, because men are Jesus Christ, man, I could have gotten so much dope and so much money from men.

Gary Burdell (55:42.542)
Yeah.

Bill (55:42.835)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Gary Burdell (55:44.942)
Well, you can.

Gary Burdell (55:59.054)
-huh.

Mike(56:08.263)
You know, I hung out in the bars, man. I, you know, I was there. I, I, you know, there were plenty of times in my life where I, you know, got free drinks from gay guys. You know, I just, I couldn't go all the way. If I could have gone all the way, I'd be dead. Right. Hmm.

Bill (56:09.619)
Heheheheh

Gary Burdell (56:19.726)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (56:28.179)
I'm sorry.

Gary Burdell (56:30.094)
know. But yes, I've had people tell me that what I'm doing... I haven't had them come out and say it's wrong, but I've had people like, are you sure that that's a good thing? And I'm like, well, and it works. And it's working for us and it's working for her. And I'm not harming anybody. So yeah.

Mike(56:38.279)
Mmm.

Right, give me the side eye.

Mike(56:47.047)
It works. Exactly. Yeah. She's staying sober. Yes. You make it exactly. It's working. Shut the fuck up. Yeah, right.

Bill (56:57.939)
Well, and Gary, thank you. Thank you for going into that because of the fact that you brought it up. You know, I wanted to talk about it because I think we've gotten to know you well enough where everything you said, I kind of assumed that you would have. I know you wouldn't have done it without talking to people that much. I knew, but I'm glad you brought it up because it is it's it's it's an out of the norm circumstance. But to Mike's point, it's working to shut the fuck up. You know, somebody looks at you side eyed and I.

Gary Burdell (57:24.334)
Yeah.

Mike(57:24.359)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (57:27.539)
I asked for more information because I didn't know how things were, didn't know how things would work. And on top of that too, so you know, you get somebody that just, and again, I fucking hate headline people. I don't like people that read a headline or listen to a sound clip and then blow it out. And then I figured, you know, that's the first thing I thought of, like somebody heard that he, you know, that he quote unquote is sponsoring a woman. So I'm like, nah, let's fucking talk about this. Because you get, you get somebody talking about whatever and this and that. I'm like, it's.

I was curious myself, but I'm thank you, you know, obviously for, for bringing it or for, going into more detail. I'm glad you did it. It's helpful. It's helpful. You know, again, being raw.

Mike(58:04.295)
Yeah, definitely.

Gary Burdell (58:07.342)
And I've also had one like you, Mike, that well, actually, I've sponsored him. We always get to step four and then he goes out and then he came back and I was like, we'll try this one more time. And we didn't even make it to four the second time. And I haven't heard from him. And I wish him the best. And I'm here when he's had enough. Actually, the other day, I almost thought about that. I had a little.

Bill (58:15.379)
Yeah, that's the tough one.

Mike(58:24.007)
Mm -hmm.

Right. Of course. Right. Mm hmm.

Gary Burdell (58:35.758)
I call it Godshot, like I should text him. Like, have you had enough yet? We're here. But I'm not going to sponsor him if he comes back. I will find him somebody. And I've already talked to several people in my network, but his DOC is mess. So I don't necessarily relate to that. And obviously I'm going to tell him. But he also wanted the second time he's kind of, every once in a while they reach out, like whatever.

Mike(58:39.207)
Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Yeah.

Bill (58:41.235)
Hahaha

Mike(58:45.831)
Right.

Mm -hmm.

Mike(58:53.959)
Right.

Gary Burdell (59:02.382)
He wants someone to feel sorry for him. I'm like, dude, you know how to do this. You did it twice. And then you don't hear from him. I'm like, sorry, but that could save his life too. I mean, I know it sounds cold. When I first came in though, I was like, how do you treat someone like that? And then over time, when you work with people, I'm like, you want what I got? I'm here. I'm not going to chase you down. I can't be sober for you. I can tell you what I do, but...

Mike(59:04.551)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Bill (59:07.027)
All right.

Mike(59:10.567)
Right. Yeah. It could be.

Bill (59:19.347)
Hahaha!

Mike(59:19.431)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(59:24.775)
Right? No. I mean, you know. Right, exactly. Well, I mean, the big book says we can't go drag people off. Marswell's. Yes. Yeah, right. You know, don't I'm not chasing anybody. Come chase me, please. I'm right here. I want to give you this, but yeah.

Gary Burdell (59:33.454)
Nope. And I read that to them. I read that to my Sponsi. So, yeah.

Gary Burdell (59:42.286)
Hehehehe

Bill (59:44.339)
Heheheheh

Gary Burdell (59:45.774)
right? Find someone that has what you want. And I got what I wanted because my sponsor is very serene and he's very even keeled and he thinks about things and he's, he's, I wouldn't say calculated, but he's just, he's just very even keeled and calm. And he's like that at a meeting. And I was like, I want that. And I went and said to him, I want to learn how to be calm. And now I am in general. I still can go off the deep end sometimes, but.

Mike(59:48.487)
and do what they do.

Mike(59:53.735)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(01:00:01.575)
Right. Mm hmm. Yeah, right.

Bill (01:00:05.395)
Right? Right?

Mike(01:00:09.659)
Nice. Right. Hey. yeah, well, you know. Exactly.

Gary Burdell (01:00:15.214)
We all can.

Bill (01:00:16.819)
Well, that's that's just called being human, you know, I mean, we can just because we're just because we're sober. Actually, we become I think, you know, you become more human, obviously, once you get sober. You know, but that is kind of funny when you said that and I was going to ask you, but you made it clear that, you know, obviously you make, you know, somebody comes back in, they start at one. I know other people that, you know, have tried to skip and I got the four before and I had that again, this one one guy that I sponsored when he when he came back in and.

Gary Burdell (01:00:20.238)
Well yeah.

Gary Burdell (01:00:26.862)
Mm -hmm.

Gary Burdell (01:00:40.878)
Mm -mm. Start over.

Bill (01:00:45.139)
You know, I made him start with the, with the first step and you know, he, he pushed back on it and I'm just like, he goes, I I've already done this. And I'm like, well, clearly you didn't get it. Or you wouldn't have went back out and he's what are you talking about? I'm like, think about it. I said, so I'm like, okay, so do this. And this was always my, my quote unquote assignment for people. I said, that wasn't a right answer. I didn't give a fuck what they wrote down. I really didn't. But I said, you know, take step one and just write down what it means to you. That's all I would do, you know, is tell them that.

Gary Burdell (01:01:13.87)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:01:13.971)
Because it would get people to think about it, whether they wrote one line, this one dude wrote like four pages, you know? And I'm reading it through, I'm like, this is really good stuff. And in my head, I'm like, Jesus fucking Christ. What a load of shit. But all it was, it's the work. It's going through the process. It's actually, I got them to actually think and do what I didn't understand, that these things, you can work these things. You can make them a part of.

Mike(01:01:25.063)
What a load of shit.

Bill (01:01:43.699)
You got to think and figure out, you know, what does it mean to me? How does it, how does this become part of my life? You know, until it just becomes part of your life. But, but yeah, he's the one that, her buddy, our buddy, Ben, he and I are sitting in a meeting one night and he's like, so did, if you heard from so -and -so, the guy, and I said, no, I said, not for a couple of days. I said, last time I texted him was Tuesday. And I said, I didn't hear back. So I'm like, I don't know where he is. And he said, well, he goes, he, well, he asked me to be a sponsor. And I'm like, really?

So what happened was he didn't like the fact that I was telling them read the 24 -hour book every morning. That's it. And then to, you know, obviously we started back at step one. So yeah, he went to our friend, Ben, and asked them to be a sponsor. And Ben's like, you got to talk to Bill first. He goes, he won't have a problem with it. If you guys aren't clicking, he's, you know, he don't have an issue with it. But he goes, you got to talk to him. And apparently the guy told me, because yeah, he goes, he's always fine with it or something like that. And he talked to me.

Gary Burdell (01:02:19.63)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(01:02:27.687)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:02:44.307)
And I'm like, that's just fucking chicken shit. It didn't make me mad. I just laughed. I'm like, have fun, Ben. Have a fucking great time. You know, and it just, it is what it is. You know, it's the, our other buddy, Darryl, who passed away. You know, I remember him getting all pissed off. It was a Dan's big book meeting, Mike. and he's just like, he's just like this and this, and he's talking about step one and whatever. Dan, our buddy Dan just said to him, he goes, he goes, you can go find, you know,

Gary Burdell (01:02:51.63)
Thank you.

Mike(01:03:01.799)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:03:11.763)
Go interview or talk to or look for as many sponsors as you want. He goes, you'll find one that will agree with you. But he said, what you're saying is wrong. It was just, Darrell's all fucking pissed off and Darrell's a big fucking dude. He's a firefighter. We always talk about fucking mean ass looking fucking dude, a teddy bear, but still, if he just, he admittedly, you know, we talked about it on here, you know, he, he couldn't grasp, you know, that, that first step. And it was literally the death of him, you know, which is a shame because.

Mike(01:03:37.895)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:03:41.171)
You know, we're all good people when we're doing this thing the right way. But yeah, this thing killed them, you know? So it's... What's that?

Gary Burdell (01:03:48.014)
the only one we need to do 100%. Yes, it's the only step you have to do 100%. The rest of them we work at, but number one, you got to do 100%.

Mike(01:03:50.183)
Thank you. Yep, it is. Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, you have to. That's the one that we have to do perfectly, man. We have absolutely no power over the substance and we can't manage our own lives. We need these principles to manage our lives and these, these ideas. Otherwise we're fucked. I know I am.

Bill (01:03:54.547)
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yep. Right. Yeah.

Gary Burdell (01:04:14.702)
cannot have just one.

Bill (01:04:15.027)
But wait, but what if? What if I put this? No. Right. That's in the big book. Yeah.

Mike(01:04:18.919)
But, but yes, and I still want to know what the fuck natural wine is.

Gary Burdell (01:04:19.438)
No.

Gary Burdell (01:04:25.102)
What the hell is that?

Mike(01:04:26.407)
I don't know. It's in the damn big book when they're talking about switching stuff up, just drinking beer, just drinking natural wines. It's in the damn big book. I don't know what a natural wine is as opposed to an unnatural wine. Well, I mean, that's like Thunderbird or night train. That's an unnatural wine.

Bill (01:04:34.483)
Isn't it? Isn't chapter? Yeah, but is it is.

Gary Burdell (01:04:35.438)
Huh.

Bill (01:04:43.939)
Right But yeah, whatever whatever chapter goes through all the all the links we used to go to you know to try to You know basically prove that we weren't alcoholic, you know, and then yeah drink

Gary Burdell (01:04:56.526)
I tried all that stuff, but I don't remember the natural wine being in there.

Mike(01:04:59.815)
Natural wine, man.

Bill (01:05:01.011)
Yeah, natural, natural wines. And yeah, Mike brings that up every once in a while. And it is this kind of funny because yeah, what the fuck, man. But yeah, trying to, again, trying to find the wiggle room. But yeah, there is, I think we all agree, right? No wiggle room in step one, correct? Not a bit of it. So that was that we went off on a nice tangent there. I like that. That was fun. So, but I think we're the reason I kind of brought that up again is that did we interrupt you? I know you went you were talking about sponsorship in the sponsor. Did we interrupt your?

Gary Burdell (01:05:14.222)
No, not at all.

Gary Burdell (01:05:29.678)
You did not? No, not at all. One of the other things that has come up for me, especially this year, so I've been sober for six years and in early sobriety, there was this guy, he had a, he was a great speaker and he was talking about, you know, I wear my sobriety like a loose scarf and I could, there's, I'm to the point now where there's, I can go anywhere in this world and be in any situation.

Bill (01:05:29.939)
Your thing again, Gary? Okay. Okay. Okay.

Gary Burdell (01:05:59.47)
And I know that I'm okay. As long as I'm spiritually fit, I have a reason to be there. And, you know, I've been accountable. and it, like, I kind of got that, but I, this past year in particular, I really get that. Like I'm, I'm comfortable in the world and like, and, and my life has gotten busy and I've, I've seen now where it would be really easy at this point to like back away from the program.

Mike(01:06:04.807)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(01:06:16.763)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(01:06:29.159)
Mmm.

Gary Burdell (01:06:29.23)
not on purpose, just, you know, your life gets busy. You start doing stuff and I go to yoga and I go to dinner and I've got other things going on. I have this going on because tonight's typically my home group meeting, but this is important to me as well. And I allow myself that if I need to do something else, whether it's recovery related or not, because it's all recovery related basically, I'm not going to go out and drink.

Mike(01:06:31.495)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(01:06:55.399)
Right?

Gary Burdell (01:06:57.774)
I don't go to a meeting, but I also find that I don't necessarily need as many meetings as I used to. And it's been weird to find that balance. But I also, you know, I catch myself like I haven't been to a meeting in a week. And then that little voice in the back's like, yeah, and you don't have to go back. I'm like, yes, I do. Because I start getting irritable around the edges. Like, I can tell when I haven't been. And it's like...

Mike(01:07:02.759)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(01:07:16.311)
huh.

Gary Burdell (01:07:26.382)
what I wrote down with sobriety needs that change over time. And so it's always finding that balance and like moving things around. But also as I mature in my sobriety, like you said, as you get older, like I don't have time for this or that or something else. Like I'm really picky about the meetings I go to. I want them to be good quality. Not that there's bad quality meetings, but stuff that aligns with what I'm doing now is how I would say that.

Mike(01:07:43.943)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(01:07:47.719)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:07:50.355)
there is. Yeah, there are.

Mike(01:07:51.239)
There are.

Gary Burdell (01:07:55.726)
But yeah, I've been to some, I don't know if I've ever been to an awful meet. I've only been to one meeting where I walked out and I felt worse than when I walked in. It's cause I didn't share. That was on me. And the meeting was really, really weird. Like the way they did it was really, really different than I was used to. And it was early sobriety and I was like, what the fuck is this shit? So it was weird. It was a weird meeting and I didn't feel comfortable. And when I left, I felt worse.

Bill (01:08:11.251)
Hehehehe

Mike(01:08:16.903)
Hehehehehe

Gary Burdell (01:08:23.054)
I called somebody and they were like, did you share how you feel? I'm like, no, they're like, find yourself a meeting or call someone and tell them. And I did. And then, well, I sat in it for a while and then I went to a meeting and shared, and then it magically went away. I was like, okay. but I just wondered, cause you guys have 14 years. Have you experienced that as it does it change? Does it, I mean, you know, obviously I went to a meeting. I went to my meditation meeting Wednesday.

Mike(01:08:32.039)
Mm -hmm.

hahahahah

Bill (01:08:35.187)
Hahaha!

Mike(01:08:52.967)
Mm -hmm.

Gary Burdell (01:08:53.006)
because I led the meditation, which is scary as fuck to do, but I do it. And they love it. Like they always come up afterwards, like, we love it when you lead these meditations. I'm like, I have no clue what I'm doing. I just do it. I mean, I kind of have a clue because I've meditated for a long time, but, you know, and I don't use a script anymore. I just kind of say a prayer and do it. So it's really weird, but.

Mike(01:08:57.543)
Right?

Mike(01:09:03.567)
Right?

Bill (01:09:03.635)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Mike(01:09:08.231)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(01:09:13.511)
Right.

Bill (01:09:15.603)
But yeah, go ahead Mike, go ahead first. I mean, I know we both got our opinions on that.

Mike(01:09:19.687)
Sure, absolutely. I've said it on here plenty of times. I come to one meeting a week now. I haven't been to a meeting outside of my home group. Right, yeah, to be of service. I don't need to go to a meeting. I don't need to sit there and it's early in sobriety, clearly I needed to go to meetings. I needed to be around those people and hear what they had to say. Absolutely. I kind of don't anymore and that's okay.

Gary Burdell (01:09:27.598)
for service.

Mike(01:09:47.239)
that's not my role in this anymore. I'm, I'm not a newcomer anymore. I know stay new and all that. but I'm not, I'm kind of definitely my home group. I mean, I'm not, I don't have the most sobriety there, but I been there the longest of anybody who's regular, regularly shows up. I've been at that meeting longer than anybody else. So I'm kind of the old guard now, which is kind of nice, you know,

Gary Burdell (01:10:12.878)
Old timer.

Bill (01:10:14.387)
Heheheheh

Mike(01:10:16.167)
Yeah, getting there, getting there. and yes, I, again, I don't need to go to, I was just saying this to somebody the other day. I just met a guy, actually through work. He works at one of the rail yards and, he's got the, circled triangle on the back of his car. And I noticed it the other day. And so I brought it up. I said, shit, man, you're a friend of Bill W's. He said, yeah. You know, he's, and, he's like, I haven't been to a meeting in like a while. And I said, man,

Gary Burdell (01:10:18.67)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(01:10:45.511)
You know what? Are you sober? He said, yeah. I said, are you good? He said, yeah. I said, well, shit, man, we didn't get sober to stay in church basements. We didn't. I didn't. I don't know. I don't like church basements. I don't like church upstairs at all. But I, you know. But yes, I go, I go once a week to be of service, to be a part of, to continue the thing. That's, you know.

Bill (01:10:59.443)
Hehehehe. Hehehe.

Gary Burdell (01:11:02.166)
you

Mike(01:11:12.519)
early on, man, I want the hand of a to be there for that. I am responsible. You know, I. Right, exactly. I don't need a meeting. You know, I'm grateful they're there if we if I get to a point where I need a meeting or I'm going to drink, I'm doing some real wrong shit that I need to look at some other stuff, you know, going and sitting in that church basement is not going to help me. I need to do some hardcore work.

Gary Burdell (01:11:16.846)
I say that out loud every time I say it too.

Mike(01:11:42.407)
Thankfully, I do the maintenance every day, so I don't get to that point. You know, meetings are great. The fellowship is great, but it's a very small part of Alcoholics Anonymous. Like Bob used to always say, man, it's an inside job. I got to do the work internally. And if I do that, I get the results.

Bill (01:12:01.363)
Right. Yeah. And I mean, for me, and we were just talking about this, what, last week or the week before again, I think you got brought up, Mike. But I don't go to meetings on a regular basis at all. And I haven't since the, well, basically when the pandemic started and then I hit online meetings and then I started hitting podcasts. And then this is quite honestly, this is my one meeting a week.

Gary Burdell (01:12:01.87)
Yep, that makes sense.

Bill (01:12:27.731)
And then I do the work, you know, all the way throughout the week and the things that we always talk about. But when I go back to Ohio, I look forward to going to at least one meeting. But if we don't, it just, it bums me out because I didn't get to see my friends, you know. I didn't necessarily need to hear the same story again. Sometimes it's somebody we know that's leading and that's cool, you know, just seeing that person and being there to support them. But, you know, if it's anything that I can do.

Gary Burdell (01:12:44.046)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:12:56.371)
I go to Keating Center events, you know, to work. I don't go to enjoy the event necessarily. I do. But when I go there, I expect to be put to work, you know. And if there's work to do at a meeting that I go to, I'll help out. You know, usually there isn't, but I would. But here's the other thing, though, and I was just thinking about it while Mike was talking. When I was in Florida, it used to be when I traveled, I would go to more meetings because even if I was in a safe place, it was just kind of like I was out of my element.

And a meeting kind of grounded me and I did it almost unknowingly. But I was in Florida at the end of 2016 going into 17. So I would have been, no beginning of 2017. So I would have been six and a half coming up on seven years sober. I was in Florida for three weeks. I was with my cousins in a very safe place. They know my deal. They're very supportive, no issues at all.

But I went to a meeting every single day for three weeks when I was down there, with the exception of three. And that's only because Kathy came into town, I think it was the day I got there and then the day I left, you know, but I went to more meetings down there than I used to go to locally. And sometimes I'll go to a meeting when I travel, because I think it's fun to see, you know, how meetings are set up, if they're different, just be new people, you know. But other than that, the same thing is I've got all the freedom in the world.

Gary Burdell (01:14:15.918)
It is.

Bill (01:14:23.379)
Right now to drink if I want to I've got all the freedom in the world to do whatever the fuck I want and nobody would know until they found out, you know But like I said when I when I first got sober when I first started had that freedom I had the money I had the ability but I didn't have the desire to drink and the first time I realized that I was probably about six months sober and it was fucking wonderful and I mean I've been at that point for a while, but that comfort zone I

Gary Burdell (01:14:31.278)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:14:51.891)
And everything that guy said, that speaker you were talking about, every piece of that's out of the big book, which is perfect because that is wearing, wearing your life like a loose garment. you know, being in a place for an event, not the, you know, not the party just for the event, being spiritually fit, all those sorts of things. If, if I don't feel comfortable someplace, I don't go, or if I become uncomfortable, I leave, you know, and I have that. Thankfully I've developed that, that ability.

Gary Burdell (01:14:57.294)
Mm -hmm.

Gary Burdell (01:15:15.534)
I believe you.

Bill (01:15:20.531)
And it's not even in my brain, it's within me. I get this unnerving feeling and then I'm like, okay, something's weird. I got to go, you know? But yeah, I mean, I still enjoy meetings. I like going, you know, but it's usually it's for the, probably the fellowship side of things. Or if I have the opportunity to be of service, I think would be the easiest way to put it.

Gary Burdell (01:15:43.662)
Cool, well, I just was, I was curious. It's just been, like I said this year, I just been very, very calm, serene, like things don't shake me, I don't, and some stuff gets under my skin, but a lot of times that's stuff that I need to work on, but stuff that normally would doesn't, you know, and I just, it's just, that's the way it is. And,

Bill (01:16:01.459)
Ha!

Gary Burdell (01:16:13.422)
It's nice. I mean, it's really, really, really nice. But it's different. It feels good, but it's different. And like I tell people, they're like, you don't drink. I said, well, I choose not to drink because I prefer to be sober. Like I really enjoy life sober. Like I don't, a drink's not gonna make this any better. It's gonna make it worse. But, and I don't, it's not.

Mike(01:16:15.623)
Yes.

Mike(01:16:23.815)
Why different is strange and we're not used to it.

Gary Burdell (01:16:40.718)
If I get upset, that's not my first go -to now. You know, that's not my first thought. For probably the first half of my sobriety, that was my first thought. Anytime I got upset, I was like, I could drink. And then you go through the rest of the things that we learn about. So you don't. But that's not my first thought now. And it truly, doing this work has truly changed how I approach life.

And it's interesting to reflect back and see how it used to be and how I am now. It's just, I didn't, in early sobriety, I didn't necessarily quite grasp what he was talking about. And now, you know, years later, I do like I starting to understand that. And so a lot of times you hear people with 10 plus, they'll, they'll talk about sobriety totally differently. I have a friend, I think he's got 30, I don't know, 30.

He got sober when he was 18. He's my age. So I think he's like 32 years or 34 years. And it's so interesting to talk to him about what he works on in his sobriety, as opposed to someone that's new or someone that's only six years old, so to speak, if you want to look at his ages. Time is relative. Time does mean something in sobriety, but it's all relative based on how much work you do.

I know people that have been sober 10 plus years and they're miserable. And like, you don't have to be like that. And all that does to me is like, I don't want that.

Mike(01:18:07.783)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(01:18:11.367)
Great.

Bill (01:18:13.715)
Well then.

Mike(01:18:16.615)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:18:17.011)
Well, and we were told, Mike, that we should, I mean, we obviously should always be evolving, right? I mean, changing and all that stuff, right?

Gary Burdell (01:18:23.822)
Yeah, continuous learning.

Mike(01:18:24.071)
No, absolutely, yeah. Right, yeah, well, you know, the promises, man, it's a new freedom and a new happiness. And sometimes we don't know what the hell to do with this new thing, because we've never had it before. This is, wait, this is, I used to be happy. I had happiness in my life. No, this is new, man. I used to be free. No, this is new, yes. And it's beautiful, man. And yeah, sometimes we're not used to it, but you know.

Bill (01:18:42.547)
Hahaha.

Gary Burdell (01:18:45.646)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(01:18:52.935)
Like you said, Gary, we're getting used to it.

Gary Burdell (01:18:57.294)
Yeah, that's very nice.

Bill (01:18:57.651)
Right. Yeah. And there was, I mean, shit for, for years. I mean, I wouldn't go to, I wouldn't even go any place, you know, that, I wouldn't walk into a bar under any circumstance. And I wouldn't just go to a bar now. but if I was in Cleveland and there was a band and Mike's like, Hey, you want to go see this band with me? And it's at this bar. I'd be, fuck yeah, let's roll, man. You know, but seven years ago, eight years ago, maybe, maybe even five years ago, I wouldn't have done it.

And Mike and I went to see Lita Ford, very weird circumstance for me at that time. That was the first concert I had been to, you know, where there was just a lot of drinking around. But then I went, I went to a Foo Fighters concert. Then Mike and I went to a Foo Fighters concert. And, you know, I've been to these different things like that. I've been to weddings and circumstances. I'm like, this isn't that bad. Fuck, I went to a blues bar, you know, by myself when I was in Memphis. I never would have done that even probably even four or five years ago.

And, but again, I was there for the event. I went, I went to eat some fucking great food. And then I went back when the band started playing, sat there for 40 minutes, was out of there in 45. So I'm like, you don't fucking belong here anymore. And I left. And, but I was, I was in fucking Memphis on Beale street surrounded by people and, you know, drinking in a bars and stuff like that. But that's not why I was there. I was there to enjoy Beale street. Yes. But in a whole different light and a whole different.

different way of looking at it for the experience of being in Memphis and walking down that famous street and then seeing this random blues band, but this dude was fucking awesome. And it was just, you get to experience things, I don't know, like Mike, that fucking moon, right? I mean, just, I didn't, God, and it's different for me now that it was, again, five years ago or 10 years ago.

Mike(01:20:42.567)
Exactly.

Gary Burdell (01:20:44.206)
and it's a different experience when you're sober.

Bill (01:20:52.947)
Sometimes I don't have the same tolerance for things these days that I did 10 years ago. You know, and it's not a bad thing. I'm like, man, I don't want to fucking do that anymore. And I'm not going to, I would agree to do something where today I have no issue whatsoever saying no, you know, that goes back to what you were talking about. The people please to get always saying yes. no is a complete sentence. I know it's, I know it's a meme and all this different things and people, you know, use it kind of tongue in cheek, but it's true.

You can say no and there doesn't have to be an explanation. You know, I don't want to go. You know, why not? I just don't. I'd be done with it. Do you want to drink? No, I'm good. You don't want to drink? Nope, all good. Hurry up, I've got a soda. I've got a water, whatever it is. People freak out about being asked about what they're going to drink. If you're nervous about it, don't be there. Because sooner or later somebody's going to ask if you're around fucking strangers because they don't get it and they shouldn't have to get it. You know, but...

Gary Burdell (01:21:20.878)
Very true.

Mike(01:21:28.423)
Hmm?

Bill (01:21:50.355)
Again, that's all about like what you were just saying, Gary. Be comfortable in your own skin. Be there for the event. If you're uncomfortable, then maybe you shouldn't be there or show up because you have to be there for a minute and then get the fuck out of there. That's it. You know? Yeah.

Gary Burdell (01:22:05.038)
Actually, I hadn't been a bar. I was at a bar two months ago. I wasn't at a bar, but I helped with a fundraiser for winter awakening and it happened to be in the parking lot of a bar that I actually used to DJ in. I used to work there. It's called different. It's got a different name and they changed the inside, but they opened it at 10 AM for us to have that and to have bathroom facilities. Of course they were drinking mimosas, but whatever.

Bill (01:22:15.123)
Hahaha

Bill (01:22:23.219)
Hahaha!

Gary Burdell (01:22:34.798)
but I had to go in and use the restroom and my God, it stunk so bad. It smelled like old vodka and stale beer. And I have dog nose now that I've been sober. I don't know where I got it from. My sense of smell in sobriety is insane. And I was like, how the hell did I ever like being in this place? It really was awful. I was like, well, couldn't wait to get back outside.

Bill (01:22:39.187)
for sure.

Mike(01:22:39.783)
Hey!

Bill (01:22:52.755)
Hahaha.

Mike(01:22:57.095)
Hehehehehe

Bill (01:23:00.211)
Yeah. Yeah. And it's just, it's again, it's the same thing. Mike and I were talking about just a week or so ago about whatever it is, you know, sitting in, you know, in a dark dingy bar on a bright sunny day. But I mean, Mike made the best point. He's like, that's why he went in there. F**k it dark and dingy and he went in there to get drunk.

Gary Burdell (01:23:12.686)
Mm -hmm.

Gary Burdell (01:23:18.318)
I sure did. And every Friday and Saturday I was in that bar. Couldn't wait to get there.

Bill (01:23:22.387)
Right. And once again, like we always say, and we've said already tonight, I mean that the freedom and you know, just, and Mike said, Mike said that to me years ago when I first moved back to Wisconsin. And again, I noticed all these liquor stores and blah, blah, blah. And the whole story that I told before, but you know, I just texted him and then he, he just texts back and he says, enjoy the freedom. The fact that I didn't have to, to stop and worry about where I was going or anything like that. And that was shit. That was 10 years ago, Mike, probably.

Mike(01:23:52.455)
Right?

Bill (01:23:52.499)
You know, I think because it was right after I moved back to Wisconsin and it might've been, if not 10 years, it was pretty goddamn close to 10 years ago. And you're just like, yeah, enjoy the freedom. I'm like, fucking wow, man. That's great. But yeah, these are usually the, these are my light bulb moments when it comes to that. Usually it's that fuck -knuckle over there that enlightens me. Not always, you know, but there's been several of them where I'm just like, yeah, man, enjoy the.

Mike(01:24:00.935)
Mm -hmm.

Mike(01:24:05.287)
Hehehehehe

Bill (01:24:22.259)
freedom. But so what?

Gary Burdell (01:24:25.55)
when you pick the hotel room when you're traveling for work to make sure it's close to a liquor store and grocery store so you can have enough.

Bill (01:24:32.883)
Well, so here's the thing though, when I used to travel and to the point is that now I can't ever get it out of my head. I've been here for almost two weeks now and I know where all the liquor stores are, the ones I've driven by because I can't help but not see them. I'm not trying to look for them, but I know where they're at because I'm like, you're just driving along and it's like your head is pulled like a magnet. It's like, there's a liquor store. There's another one. there's a liquor store.

Gary Burdell (01:24:34.574)
I don't miss that at all.

Bill (01:25:01.811)
It looks like a nice one over there. I mean, I have no desire or anything to drink, but I still, I can't, I would do that all the time. Anytime I went into a new town, I figure out where the hotel was and then drive around as far as I had to to figure out, it usually wasn't far, fucking Wisconsin, nine times out of 10. There was bars and liquor stores everywhere, you know? So, yeah, always, I'd always stop there first and.

Mike(01:25:20.103)
Hehehehe

Gary Burdell (01:25:26.062)
Yeah, in Wisconsin, the restaurants are the bars. If I remember correctly.

Bill (01:25:29.011)
Yeah. Well, there's, well, the, the funny part is, and this is a fact, I mean, it's like that in Cleveland too, you in Lakewood down, what's a, why can't I think of what, what's that main dragon Lakewood like? Where like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. We're that's where melt is right on Detroit. Yeah. So going down there and even, even a couple of roads up Madison's another one that when you go down these roads, I mean, shit.

Mike(01:25:41.319)
What, Detroit?

Bill (01:25:54.483)
You can't walk more than a block and a half without running into a bar on both sides. You know, there's just these rows and strings and streets of bars, you know, so Lakewood's the same way, but yeah, in Wisconsin, you get small towns, there'll be a church, a gas station, three bars in at least two places you can buy alcohol, you know, and every fucking small town that you could, that you could blow through in two blocks, you know, and, and it's got all that, but it's, yeah. Yep.

Mike(01:25:59.431)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:26:22.611)
You don't have to look very far. That's we're goddamn sure.

Mike(01:26:23.111)
Well, I got you all beat. Cause when I, when I first started driving truck, right, I was still drinking and I was over the road. So I had every truck stop in the country that sold beer. And, I knew where there, I like literally every state, every, I knew where I could get a truck into within a few blocks of a liquor store. Cause I had to get a bottle of whiskey too. So, and my favorite was, was little rock Arkansas, because there was a.

Bill (01:26:35.571)
Hahaha.

Mike(01:26:51.719)
A truck stop there, a big one and right on the edge of the parking lot, there was a full liquor store. It was beautiful.

Bill (01:26:57.427)
Well, there's been a couple of things... but like since...

Gary Burdell (01:27:01.39)
The hard one would have been Pennsylvania. Go ahead, Bill. Yes, and you got to buy a case of beer in Pennsylvania. You can't buy six -pack.

Mike(01:27:04.711)
Pennsylvania sucked, man. It was the fucking worst.

Right and and the truck stops don't sell it and it's all Pennsylvania was horrible I had to make sure that I was stocked up before I went into pennsylvania Shit, man. I was down. I was down south one time I don't remember it was but I was in a dry county and I got in the truck and drove an hour and a half Because into the next county so I could get what I needed and drove back into the dry county. yeah Yeah, freedom my ass

Gary Burdell (01:27:13.07)
Mm -mm.

Yes.

Bill (01:27:29.875)
Did you really?

Bill (01:27:36.947)
Right, right. Yeah, but there's been a couple of times since I've been traveling and stuff like that, that, you know, I've, you've mentioned to me, Mike, you're like, yeah, there's a truck stop there, this and that. I'm saying, I'm sure there is, you know, cause you, you pointed that out before, you know, the truck stops. I mean, why, why not? I mean, you would know, you had to know. I mean, that's, that's, that's, that's what we do, you know, it's what we need, you know? So yeah, you absolutely 100 % have to know.

Mike(01:27:53.383)
Mm -hmm. I had to know.

Gary Burdell (01:28:02.35)
the

Bill (01:28:04.019)
So, Gary, what else? I mean, we're heading up on that hour and a half time, but what else? Any other, I don't know, things you want to bring up or talk about or wrap up with or yet?

Gary Burdell (01:28:15.694)
Really, I do want to say thank you for having me back. I do religiously listen to you guys every week. And like I said, you're a big part of my sobriety. I appreciate that you do this. I know you've had some technical issues. I almost did some research for you to see why Riverside's the way it is. But it sounded like you guys, yeah, it sounded like you guys were on top of it. So sometimes I don't meddle.

Mike(01:28:21.447)
Of course.

Mike(01:28:35.335)
We'll take all the help we can get.

Bill (01:28:40.595)
Well, it's getting to the point and Mike and I even talked about it because now, I mean, we've got all the switches where they should be, my internet's fine, his internet's fine. You're not even part of the, I'll say part of the problem because I mean, it happens whether we've had, this is the first time we've had a guest on since we had some of those issues. But I mean, I'm serious, man. We're to the point where,

Gary Burdell (01:29:01.838)
Mm -hmm. It's been a while.

Bill (01:29:07.315)
Both of us are about ready to just say, fuck you to Riverside because it's ridiculous. There's nothing I've been, I've been in how many different places now with, you know, so, you know, we've all these different things and Mike, we were both there. His internet's fine. All the, I worked the entire week when I was at his house, you know, on the phone, Zoom calls, all this sort of thing, which draw a lot of internet usage. God, yeah. You know, so.

Gary Burdell (01:29:30.382)
A lot more than this, yes. I work in the UC space, so I understand. I know exactly what you're talking about.

Bill (01:29:35.699)
Yeah. So you, you know what I'm talking about? You know, zoom zoom phone, our entire company is run on zoom and Salesforce, you know, two, two programs like that are apps or, or websites that pull a lot of juice, I guess, if you want to put it that way, fucking no issues. And then, yeah, but still, I mean, we had, we almost couldn't record that night. We had so many fucking problems with, you know, with the recording that night at Mike's house, you know, so I don't know. It's, it's one of those things where it's getting to the point where we might just.

Gary Burdell (01:29:49.166)
Zoom's pretty optimized though, but yes.

Bill (01:30:05.139)
If nothing else, try something else and then, you know, worry about, we already paid for Riverside for the year, but worst case, you know, if they keep our fucking money, then fuck them. You know, we'll try somebody else. So, right, Mike.

Mike(01:30:16.463)
Yes

Gary Burdell (01:30:17.742)
and I was gonna buy you guys some coffees and then you came on and said, I don't want your money. I was like, okay. I didn't, I didn't. But.

Bill (01:30:22.003)
No, don't. No, really. And that that. Yeah. And that's that's the other thing, too. And I and I mean that wholeheartedly. And if somebody if somebody donated money to us, I mean, seriously, we can donate it back or do whatever it is. But I get so it I can't believe how fucking angry it made me when these podcasts are telling people, you know, that they need their money. I'm like, you fucking liars, you know, because again, I mean, they that's that's all that it is. They're fucking liars. I I openly said exactly what we spend.

Mike(01:30:23.335)
Hehehehe

Mike(01:30:45.095)
Hehehehehe

Bill (01:30:51.827)
which is, what did I figure Mike six, 700 bucks a year total. And that's only because we pay, I mean, 220 of it is this shit that we got to deal with with Riverside, you know, in the rest of it is just, you know, I mean, things to make my life easier, basically, you know, for cutting tools and things like that. But, I mean that the fucking website costs more money than the goddamn podcast. The website's a fucking drain. This isn't. Well, it, I mean, the, our merchandise website, not.

Mike(01:30:55.303)
Yeah, something like that.

Gary Burdell (01:31:16.686)
Yeah, website's expensive.

Bill (01:31:21.619)
sober and immature one, but that's the other. Between Riverside and the website to have it is more than half of what we spend in a year, you know, because that's probably 400 and some bucks, but that's those are two things, you know. We don't have to have them.

Gary Burdell (01:31:23.182)
okay.

Gary Burdell (01:31:34.766)
I look at it as seven tradition. Like I'm listening and going to your meeting, so to speak, if you want to call it that, and my air quotes that you can't see. And it's just seven tradition. So I was literally like the week that I thought about buying you guys a coffee, you came on and said, please don't send us any money. I was like, OK, I won't.

Mike(01:31:37.767)
Exactly.

Bill (01:31:42.707)
Right.

Mike(01:31:43.655)
Hehehehehe

Bill (01:31:52.595)
Yeah, it's.

Mike(01:31:53.815)
Don't give us money and don't listen.

Bill (01:31:58.003)
Right, right. No, you can. And that's, you know, honestly, that's what we ask people to do is. Yeah, we we ask people, although we ask people to do is, yeah, share us, you know, then help us grow and then we can we can take money from people that can afford it. But, you know, from advertisers and stuff like that, because, again, it just it's there's no reason we don't need the money again. If somebody gave us money, we're not going to throw, you know, throw it away. We could donate it, but we're not going to.

Gary Burdell (01:31:58.222)
you're not going to stop me from listening, Mike.

Mike(01:32:04.359)
Hahaha, good.

Bill (01:32:25.107)
Beg for fucking money like everyone else. Fuck. I mean, just it's still every time I think about it makes me mad, but no. But I get it, Gary. You know, he's what?

Gary Burdell (01:32:31.518)
And by the way, on the on the Apple version of your podcast, it puts a commercial in wherever someone takes a breath about 16 minutes in. And it doesn't seem to be like it's somewhere between like the 16 minute mark and the 20 something. I've been trying to keep an eye on it, but it's like in the halfway through a sentence, one of you will take like a breath and that's where it puts the hat. And it makes me laugh. I just laugh. You can fast forward through it, but.

Bill (01:32:41.779)
Right.

Mike(01:32:41.959)
Hmm.

Bill (01:32:55.315)
Right. Well, in in.

Gary Burdell (01:33:00.078)
It just makes me laugh. It's not even logical.

Bill (01:33:03.955)
Well, in what it is, is that, and again, this is to make my life easier. You can place ads manually in Spotify for podcasters, which is who we do the ads through. That's our host. Riverside is just where we record. But then they have this AI thing now where they replace ads wherever AI looks for spaces. And they'll look for basically sometimes, and it happened last week when I was listening to it too, you know.

Gary Burdell (01:33:16.014)
Mm -hmm.

Gary Burdell (01:33:27.214)
Mm -hmm.

Bill (01:33:32.915)
Michael be like, and that's how I felt. And then an ad comes in and I'm like, well, but yeah. And then, yeah, it does it. I I've heard it on other podcasts, so everyone's using it. So the cool part is, is that that's a one thing. Because when I first started here, I'm like, that's kind of fucking weird, but it just is what it is. But yeah, they put.

Gary Burdell (01:33:50.062)
It is what it is. If you watch YouTube TV, it does the same thing. It randomly just plays an ad. So, yeah.

Bill (01:33:56.627)
Yeah, it's all, it's all AI shit. You know, it's one of the beginning, one at the end, they'll put, try to put one in the middle and then they'll split one. You're probably right about 15 minutes in, because the way we run in an hour and a half, it's, it's perfectly split probably at, you know, 20 minutes in or 15 or 16 or whatever. So, all right. So enough technology talk, right? Mike, he, I know you're, you're probably ready to get the hell out of here. So what do you think, Mike? Back to you. Yeah.

Gary Burdell (01:34:07.598)
Mm -hmm.

Gary Burdell (01:34:11.822)
It usually does, yes.

Mike(01:34:20.391)
I don't stop there for a minute.

Gary Burdell (01:34:22.67)
That's okay, Bill's in the bathroom.

Bill (01:34:24.211)
I knew what he was because we were having tech talk. So he was, he fell asleep. So yep.

Gary Burdell (01:34:29.006)
Toning out, zoning out.

Mike(01:34:31.095)
yeah. I don't care. All right. Well, thank you everyone for listening to another episode of sober, not mature. Thank you very much, Gary, for coming on and hanging out with us this week. We really appreciate it. We appreciate you listening to us too. And we appreciate all the rest of you fuckers listening to us too. You know, send us an email. Maybe you can come out here and be cool. Like Gary. All right, kids, guess what? It's time. It's time.

Bill (01:34:33.363)
Right, it's your turn, Mike.

Mike(01:35:00.039)
It's time for you to fuck off. Then keep fucking off. Keep fucking off till you get to a gate with a sign on it saying you cannot fuck off past here. Climb over that gate, dream the impossible dream, and keep fucking off forever.

Bill (01:35:14.707)
And yes, if you want to be cool like Gary. And literally, it did it. You brought this up in your episode when you went before you like you just emailed me and I'm like, yeah, I mean, believe me, though, we just so everyone knows, we're not going to say fucking yes to everyone. If you're a fucking weirdo and anyone I know we tried to ask a lot of questions of Gary to, you know, we want to have, you know, somebody we're going to have something in common with. And, you know, Gary turned out, obviously, you know, we appreciate you in all different kinds of ways, but.

Gary Burdell (01:35:18.446)
Hahaha!

Gary Burdell (01:35:30.478)
Yes.

Bill (01:35:44.211)
But yeah, if anyone wants to I don't know give us a give us a shot see if we'll say yes or no But but I know seriously Gary thank you know all the thanks is on this side of the table We appreciate you coming on and it was it was cool. Just having somebody come up We haven't done that yet to have somebody come on and just kind of you know Shoot the shit and be I don't know if you were like a you were like a third host for a week and it was cool

Mike(01:35:50.279)
Hehehehehe

Mike(01:35:58.343)
over here.

Gary Burdell (01:36:09.806)
Yeah, I appreciate it. I enjoy it.

Bill (01:36:11.635)
Yeah, it was fun. All right, Mike, I love you, brother, and I know we'll talk soon. And Gary, seriously, thank you. And everyone else, goodbye.

Mike(01:36:15.431)
Love you too.

Gary Burdell (01:36:17.998)
You're welcome.

Bye.