SoberNotMature - Episode 134 (Dr. Sarah - The Dr. Is Way In)

00:00:01.66
Bill
All right, everyone. Welcome once again to another episode of Sober, Not Mature. And yes, this week we made you, well, actually we made you wait a year.

00:00:12.56
Bill
then we Then we made you wait three more weeks.

00:00:15.33
Mike
Right.

00:00:15.37
Bill
But yes, tonight we've we've got her back. um Hopefully, maybe she'll even co-sign a little bit more of our bullshit.

00:00:20.86
Mike
Yay.

00:00:21.76
Bill
But yeah, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, it is Dr. Dr. Sarah.

00:00:28.81
Bill
Yay, welcome, welcome, Dr.

00:00:29.21
Dr. Sarah
Yay!

00:00:30.25
Bill
Dr. Sarah. You know what I figured out, Mike? We actually have, we've got sound effects on here that we, I could actually add episodes. I can add like, I can add audio clips. i i'll I won't test it out now, but I just, I looked it up as I was waiting, but yeah, we can, we can add fun stuff.

00:00:42.48
Mike
Mm.

00:00:43.35
Bill
Maybe we could do like, and clapping or some stupid shit to this.

00:00:48.30
Mike
All right.

00:00:48.87
Dr. Sarah
You guys are very talented in that department. I love all your and love all your funny stuff.

00:00:51.59
Bill
ah

00:00:54.69
Bill
Yeah, you know, the thing of it is ah it has nothing to do with talent.

00:00:57.76
Mike
he

00:00:57.79
Bill
We've we've learned, we've literally, and I and i mean this sincerely, that the end product now, I'm very proud of it.

00:01:04.10
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:01:04.22
Bill
I know Mike's proud of it. It sounds wonderful. It sounds, and I'm going to use big air quotes here, professional-ish.

00:01:09.96
Mike
Ooh.

00:01:10.87
Bill
um but the thing of it is is it just we've learned by making a lot of fucking mistakes over the last two and a half years um which you know because you're doing your thing and I we do want to talk we want to talk about your not just your YouTube because it's now a podcast obviously we're going to talk more about your book

00:01:15.89
Dr. Sarah
ah Amen.

00:01:24.95
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:01:27.15
Bill
Anyone who didn't listen to Dr. Dr. Sarah when we had her on before, it's it has been a little over a year, episode 72. At some other point, I usually tell people to stop and go back, don't stop now, go back and listen to Dr.

00:01:38.44
Mike
Right.

00:01:40.50
Bill
Dr. Sarah. um I actually re-listened to that about a month ago, and i really I don't know if we can do any better tonight, I'll tell you that much, so it was just...

00:01:46.60
Dr. Sarah
Oh, wow. Wow. You guys, that's too flattering. Thank you.

00:01:51.77
Bill
I'm just fucking around it was a it was a it was a lot of fun but so I mean we've got a lot of things and this is we really have no plan like last a few weeks ago when when obviously we had her set to come on to begin with we had a slight technical issue no big deal got it all squared away um but

00:01:52.97
Dr. Sarah
We had a lot of fun. Yeah, we did.

00:02:09.05
Bill
The Dr. Dr. Sarah texted me, we're going back and forth, and then she's like, so, what are we gonna talk about? Do we have a plan, or are we just gonna wing it? And I just laughed, and I'm like, wing it.

00:02:17.60
Mike
Wing it.

00:02:17.59
Bill
I said, we'll talk we'll talk about the book, we'll talk about the podcast, find out what you're up to.

00:02:17.76
Dr. Sarah
wing it.

00:02:21.47
Bill
I do have a few things that I'll end up asking throughout, but um I don't know, I mean, let us know. First of all, remind people, um I guess, just briefly, how you yeah, who are you?

00:02:29.63
Mike
Who are you?

00:02:31.51
Bill
Yeah, who are you?

00:02:33.24
Dr. Sarah
Mike, thank you.

00:02:33.35
Bill
Yeah, who are you? um How you got here? How long you been sober? Just a brief thing like that, so people remember.

00:02:36.82
Dr. Sarah
You're so hilarious.

00:02:38.66
Bill
okay

00:02:38.86
Dr. Sarah
Well, my son says I'm a hundred years old and, you know, I mean, sometimes I feel it to be honest with you.

00:02:41.23
Mike
Mm-hmm damn kids Mm

00:02:45.07
Dr. Sarah
Yeah. Um, but yeah, so my name is Dr. Dr. Sarah Michaud. I'm a clinical psychologist and I've worked with, um, addiction for over 30 years and I just celebrated.

00:02:57.17
Bill
Okay.

00:02:57.65
Dr. Sarah
40 years of sobriety in February, which is fricking mind boggling.

00:03:02.08
Bill
Wow.

00:03:02.38
Mike
-hmm

00:03:02.56
Dr. Sarah
I know, which makes me feel old. Yeah. So yeah, so I got sober when I was 24. My drugs of choice were everything, but cocaine especially and alcohol.

00:03:11.94
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:03:15.32
Mike
Right.

00:03:15.49
Dr. Sarah
um And, you know, I always say I was really grateful for the drugs because the drugs brought me down really quickly. I probably could have drank, for God knows, maybe a lot longer.

00:03:25.75
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:03:26.88
Dr. Sarah
But when you're doing drugs, as you guys know, you usually get into illegal activities of some kind.

00:03:31.57
Mike
Mm-hmm. No.

00:03:34.18
Dr. Sarah
So, yeah. So, I mean, yeah, that got me into a lot of trouble, but ultimately, I crashed and burned in 1984. I'm a class of 84. So, yeah.

00:03:44.66
Mike
Nice.

00:03:44.80
Bill
Nice.

00:03:45.67
Dr. Sarah
Yeah, and um really just love recovery. And I'm sure we could talk a lot about the codependency too. I mean, the way I got, it's so funny.

00:03:56.59
Dr. Sarah
This is what I'm going to say. And you guys and I, you guys and I can riff on this, but I was at a meeting recently and there was probably, I don't know, 30 people there and probably 20 of the people that shared used the word people pleasing.

00:04:04.23
Mike
Hmm.

00:04:13.63
Dr. Sarah
And I remember thinking to myself, like wow, my theory about you know addiction, not i mean not my only theory, but I do think that a lot of times some of the underlying issues are is the codependency. It's those relational dynamics and things that go on in our childhoods or whatever fears we have that you know, lead to needing to detach from ourselves.

00:04:46.15
Dr. Sarah
And it just seems like I know so many people in recovery who struggle.

00:04:50.62
Mike
All

00:04:51.18
Dr. Sarah
And I was going to ask you guys about your relationships. That's where I was going to take this.

00:04:55.36
Mike
right.

00:04:55.94
Dr. Sarah
um Yeah.

00:04:56.45
Bill
maybe between the two of us or

00:04:57.88
Mike
Yeah.

00:04:59.32
Bill
yeah

00:04:59.68
Dr. Sarah
Because I mean I think so many So many folks have issues with relationships in sobriety I mean, you know plenty of people that are sober a long time and still struggling so I just think it's a huge thing and really um It's weird having these headphones on to be honest with you because I kind of it's like it's like

00:05:03.95
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:05:21.19
Mike
Yeah.

00:05:24.48
Dr. Sarah
Reverbing in my ears, but i'll do the best I can but um Yeah, lots of folks in sobriety struggle with relationships, and I know you know lots of people, and I do too, that are in unhappy relationships, are unable to express what they want or need, you know are unable to speak up, are still compromising themselves, are full of resentment.

00:05:35.07
Mike
Hmm. Mm hmm.

00:05:46.48
Dr. Sarah
So um yeah, I think it's a big deal for people in recovery, but also just for anybody.

00:05:47.97
Mike
g

00:05:54.05
Dr. Sarah
I mean, part of why I wrote, go ahead.

00:05:54.34
Mike
Sorry. No, no, no. Go ahead. I'm just agreeing with you.

00:05:57.94
Dr. Sarah
I was gonna say part, yeah I mean I was gonna say, part of why I wrote the book is, you know codependency like, of course the ah awareness of it started with Bill and Lois right back in the 50s or whatever.

00:05:59.67
Bill
yeah

00:06:10.75
Mike
Alright.

00:06:13.04
Dr. Sarah
And then all of a sudden, 60s, 70s, all these books came out about codependency, codependent no more with melody beady. And originally, it was really about the kind of stereotype of the male alcoholic and the woman who's codependent with the, you know, wanting to get her husband sober.

00:06:29.94
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:06:31.90
Bill
Right.

00:06:32.31
Dr. Sarah
But Codependency definitely occurs when you're in a relationship with an addict, but I have discovered that literally it's everywhere. In fact, one of my chapters is called It's Everywhere because It's people with their kids.

00:06:47.76
Dr. Sarah
It's people with their best friends. It's people with their bosses. It's not just around addiction.

00:06:52.77
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:06:53.56
Dr. Sarah
It's any place that you feel more concerned with what you' the per the other person is thinking or saying or doing rather than what's important to you.

00:07:04.19
Mike
Hmm. Hmm.

00:07:06.51
Dr. Sarah
So basically, it's an it's a

00:07:09.14
Mike
Hmm.

00:07:09.36
Dr. Sarah
type of relation, ah type of relating where you're coming from fear, you're afraid to be who you really want to be because of how someone's going to respond to you.

00:07:18.88
Mike
Hmm. Hmm.

00:07:21.03
Dr. Sarah
So that's, you know, go ahead.

00:07:21.44
Mike
Hmm.

00:07:21.64
Bill
Right. Well, and no, I was just going to say that that literally, that's one of the that's one of the things I wrote down. I think it was either from another, I think it was one of your um Crazy Town podcast episodes.

00:07:33.58
Bill
I was listening to those here and there when I was driving.

00:07:36.05
Dr. Sarah
yeah

00:07:36.23
Bill
And I wrote that down that ah you know you said that everyone is codependent in some way. And that's what I was going to ask you what what you meant by that or what some of the ways are. And and the thing of it is, i and I'm sure, I have no doubt that you know a lot of the the codependency and their, well,

00:07:50.40
Bill
yeah A lot of relationship issues probably come from people looking at, you know, alcoholic families or abusive families and all those sort of things.

00:07:55.97
Dr. Sarah
yeah

00:07:56.73
Bill
But um I mean, I based on what you said, I guess maybe I was go the main question is what are some of the ways that you think that let's say outside of the even the addiction community or the recovery community, what are some of the some of the main ways that just everyday people are codependent?

00:07:59.32
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:08:13.35
Bill
I know you said kids and stuff, but what other ways?

00:08:15.77
Dr. Sarah
All right, so ah so i'm all right truth, I'm dating someone right now.

00:08:21.30
Bill
That was another one of my questions. i got I got a whole thing down here.

00:08:23.57
Mike
dismiss

00:08:24.10
Bill
Well, you can go into that.

00:08:24.31
Dr. Sarah
Okay. So yeah, I mean, so it's going on four months and I am telling you guys, it is so shocking to me.

00:08:25.02
Bill
Let's go go into that. Let's go into it.

00:08:33.24
Dr. Sarah
I've written a book. I've been married twice. I haven't been in a relationship. I mean, I've dated a few people, but not in a relationship, probably for over 10 years.

00:08:38.55
Mike
Mm

00:08:43.21
Dr. Sarah
I think I'm very independent.

00:08:43.19
Mike
hmm.

00:08:45.01
Dr. Sarah
I think I can speak my mind. I think I know what I want. And I get into this relationship and he will ask me a simple question like, do you want to go to the beach tomorrow?

00:08:58.55
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:08:58.77
Dr. Sarah
And the next thing you know, I'm like hemming and hawing in my mind like, do I really want to go to the beach? am i What does he want? Does he want to go to the beach tomorrow? I mean, it's so insidious and crazy.

00:09:13.21
Dr. Sarah
And that's just like a very simple example, but it's this whole idea of, I'm already thinking about what I think someone else wants rather than what do I want?

00:09:16.66
Bill
Right.

00:09:23.85
Mike
Mm-hmm. yeah

00:09:26.61
Dr. Sarah
you know Really sitting with, and again, this is a simple example, and I give examples in the book about restaurants, you know, like you're with your spouse and they say to you, what do you feel like eating?

00:09:38.74
Dr. Sarah
And the person goes, I don't care. What do you want to eat?

00:09:41.37
Mike
right ah Yeah, like every weekend.

00:09:42.40
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:09:47.90
Dr. Sarah
Right. So the question is, you may not care. Maybe you don't. Maybe you're someone that can eat anything. I'm someone like that. But maybe some night you really do and you want to say, go have Italian food.

00:10:03.35
Dr. Sarah
But for some reason, you can't say that. And this is ah very like this happens all the time.

00:10:06.69
Mike
Hmm.

00:10:10.43
Dr. Sarah
And so the question is, why? Why can't I speak up for what I want and need in a relationship? And it can be from very small things, like what restaurant I want to go to, to huge things, like where do you want to live?

00:10:25.64
Mike
Right.

00:10:27.97
Dr. Sarah
um And you know I've had clients that you know, are in pretty serious, you know, big time conflicts in their relationships and just end up, and I say this in the book, I have a quote in the book around this, around people are so afraid of conflict.

00:10:48.73
Dr. Sarah
or expressing what they want for a variety of reasons. It could be because I'm afraid you're going to get mad at me. It could be I'm afraid of you abandoning me. It could be I'm afraid of rejection.

00:11:01.79
Dr. Sarah
I mean, codependency's source is really fear. And when you think about addiction, really, that's similar also.

00:11:07.60
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:11:09.51
Dr. Sarah
but um So it can be small things or big things. And the thing is, if you dismiss yourself enough over time from small things to big things, whether it's not speaking up to your boss, whether it's not setting a limit with your kid,

00:11:30.31
Dr. Sarah
whether it's telling your best friend you're upset with them, whether it's, I have a guy right now sending me emails about a sponsor, right? Which is fascinating.

00:11:39.16
Mike
Hmm.

00:11:39.95
Dr. Sarah
He says his sponsor is super controlling.

00:11:43.18
Mike
Hmm.

00:11:43.52
Dr. Sarah
He's constantly demanding him to do things he doesn't want to do. And I mean, it's been a long relationship. It's not like this is a news, you know, the guy's done some work.

00:11:53.29
Mike
Right.

00:11:53.57
Dr. Sarah
But he can't seem to speak up to this guy that seems super controlling.

00:11:58.06
Mike
Hmm.

00:11:59.63
Dr. Sarah
So this is a really, you know, this is a classic kind of, you know, recovery example of a codependent relationship where he doesn't feel he can say anything because the sponsor will just basically shame him and tell him he's wrong rather than having a discussion.

00:12:15.23
Mike
Hmm.

00:12:17.73
Dr. Sarah
And I mean, you know, go ahead.

00:12:17.73
Mike
Right. I mean, so how much, how much, yeah, I'm just curious how much time this guy has, not the sponsor, but the sponsor.

00:12:25.67
Dr. Sarah
He has quite a bit of time. He's been around a long time.

00:12:27.45
Mike
Okay. All right.

00:12:29.12
Dr. Sarah
So that's what I mean. It's not like a newcomer.

00:12:30.68
Mike
Well, I mean, okay.

00:12:31.68
Dr. Sarah
Yeah. Yeah.

00:12:32.95
Mike
Well, I mean, right.

00:12:34.97
Dr. Sarah
Yeah. You would think he would be okay with speaking up, right?

00:12:37.57
Mike
Well, I would think that he wouldn't need a controlling sponsor at this point if he's got that much time.

00:12:43.94
Dr. Sarah
You would think.

00:12:44.16
Bill
yeah Right.

00:12:45.12
Mike
Right.

00:12:45.35
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:12:45.80
Mike
Right. So, I mean, it sounds like they both need to work on some stuff. Um, right.

00:12:50.65
Dr. Sarah
Absolutely. late

00:12:51.84
Mike
Yeah. I mean, we all do, but geez. Um, right. I mean, while I was thinking you were talking about, you know, um, it's It's a difficult balance for me because you know being an alcoholic and an addict, um you were talking about being concerned of what others think.

00:13:05.04
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:13:07.82
Dr. Sarah
Yes.

00:13:09.77
Mike
i've got to I've got to be really careful with that. Yes, because being a selfish and self-centered alcoholic, um I don't give a fuck what other people think.

00:13:15.90
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:13:19.49
Mike
um so

00:13:20.34
Dr. Sarah
I love you, Mike.

00:13:23.36
Mike
But I, but I have to, I have to kind of care whether the people think because my old lifestyle was, I didn't care what anybody thought. Um, and so I've got to, I've got to balance that, um, you know, which go, no, go ahead.

00:13:37.51
Dr. Sarah
Right. And I mean, go ahead. I was going to say we could do a deep dive with that because like I'm sure on one hand, you really don't care. Like you don't get, right?

00:13:47.38
Mike
Right. Oh, I don't know.

00:13:48.97
Dr. Sarah
But at the same, all right. But at the same time, okay, at the same time,

00:13:53.60
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:13:57.07
Dr. Sarah
That whole way of being like, I don't give a fuck is a defense.

00:14:00.88
Mike
Right. Of course.

00:14:02.48
Dr. Sarah
Okay. Now I'm going to shrink. So if someone kind of says like, I don't care about whatever they're doing or whatever they're thinking, it is a way of defending against my underlying hurt or pain or disappointing someone or whatever.

00:14:09.38
Mike
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Sure.

00:14:17.81
Dr. Sarah
Right?

00:14:18.40
Mike
Right.

00:14:18.57
Dr. Sarah
So I mean, it's both. It's both.

00:14:20.88
Mike
Right.

00:14:21.70
Dr. Sarah
Yeah.

00:14:21.77
Mike
Right. But again, you know, but I have to balance it because, you know, after doing all this work and being sober and, you know, working the program and everything, I actually do care what other people think now, you know, right.

00:14:31.93
Dr. Sarah
Of course.

00:14:33.35
Mike
And, and, and how they feel and whatever, um, you know, and it's, I've had to turn it around and, you know, I'd not be so concerned about how I feel.

00:14:33.74
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:14:42.66
Mike
Um,

00:14:42.92
Bill
hey

00:14:44.41
Dr. Sarah
All right.

00:14:44.34
Bill
yeah fuck Fuck your feelings, right?

00:14:44.73
Dr. Sarah
So this is the, fuck your feelings.

00:14:46.34
Mike
exactly.

00:14:48.44
Dr. Sarah
This is the thing though. Okay. I'm going to make a distinction. It's one thing for me to care about how my partner feels. Like be, be I could, you know,

00:14:57.91
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:15:00.85
Dr. Sarah
I could so validate him. I could say, geez, I understand how you might be upset with me, or I understand how you feel that way.

00:15:06.20
Mike
yeah Right.

00:15:08.39
Dr. Sarah
It's another thing, though, for me to disregard myself right and make his feelings the priority because I'm afraid of what he's going to do.

00:15:13.35
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:15:18.33
Mike
Oh, of course.

00:15:19.47
Bill
Right.

00:15:22.09
Mike
Hmm.

00:15:22.38
Dr. Sarah
So that's the distinction.

00:15:24.37
Mike
Right.

00:15:24.55
Dr. Sarah
you know It's like, yeah, caring is one thing, but codependency is another.

00:15:27.73
Mike
Mm hmm. Right, right. Carrying is one thing, but yeah causing yourself pain and and misery and whatever.

00:15:30.19
Dr. Sarah
Yeah.

00:15:33.21
Dr. Sarah
Yes.

00:15:34.61
Mike
Yeah. Right. To make them feel good is just as bad.

00:15:39.88
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:15:39.84
Mike
Absolutely.

00:15:39.93
Bill
Well, and yeah, and you mentioned you mentioned people pleasing also, which I think this all codependency I think is people pleasing, if nothing else are part of.

00:15:40.16
Dr. Sarah
And the, yeah.

00:15:48.01
Bill
you know And that's something that I know to to begin with, and Mike and I have talked about that, I think on here, Mike, with, you know I can still be a people pleaser to certain individuals, not everyone, because I've gotten to the point, to to Mike's point, is that you know that I think that we've and we've got 14, not 40 years, but ah you know a couple of years in this thing.

00:15:57.51
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:16:07.67
Bill
and gotten to a point where we're comfortable and confident with ourselves and where we are and we know we've done the work and we know we're trying to do good you know so we have that going for us i guess that's one side but you know when i know when when i first got sober it was really hard for me to say no to anyone family friends kids my ex anything like that because at that point i'm like i owe these people

00:16:17.02
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:16:24.96
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:16:25.71
Mike
Mm. Right.

00:16:27.33
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:16:29.87
Mike
Well, at that point, we're trying to, yeah, we're trying to balance the leisure at that point.

00:16:31.88
Bill
but

00:16:33.35
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:16:33.40
Bill
Oh God, yeah, it's like I need to do everything for everyone.

00:16:35.94
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:16:36.82
Bill
And at that point, I didn't care. I did, I sacrificed, if I want to put it that way, my own my own feelings, but it wasn't a sacrifice.

00:16:40.37
Mike
Mm. Sure.

00:16:43.10
Bill
But, you know, it still comes down to like, you know, like my my children.

00:16:44.09
Dr. Sarah
right

00:16:47.16
Bill
I mean, my kids, thankfully, they're they're beautiful human beings. Neither one of them take advantage of me. um You know, and i I think I'd be able to see it if they did, but they don't. They're truly good human beings.

00:16:57.17
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:16:58.72
Bill
um You know, but the thing of it is, is i what I tell them is I said, ask me anything and ask before anything. If I have the ability to do it or the funds or the means or whatever the thing is, if I can do what I will, but if I can't, I'm going to tell you why, you know.

00:17:11.34
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:17:13.83
Dr. Sarah
Brilliant.

00:17:13.86
Bill
um And in turn, what what happens, like my daughter, I'm i her go-to, you know, to babysit my grandson. And and i don't I don't live next door to her, you know um you know?

00:17:20.50
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:17:24.43
Bill
But it's, I appreciate that fact. I can't always do it. She always says, you can't, no big deal. If you can't take off more, no big deal. I do whatever I can because it benefits, it I enjoy it, number one.

00:17:36.80
Bill
you know and I know how important it is to be in a child's life and in her life, but I also know that if I if i say no, um she'll understand. if i If I had this feeling that she would get upset about it, it would bother me.

00:17:49.30
Dr. Sarah
right

00:17:49.24
Bill
And there's been people in my life since I've been sober, not family members or anything like that, but I've run across people, mainly people that, you know, you talk about these, I haven't had full-term relationships, but I've been involved with people.

00:17:53.62
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:18:02.16
Bill
drew out the top of my head where um basically I knew if I said no, it was going to cause a problem. And then basically I did it because I'm like, fuck it. I want I'd rather have the conflict than do something I don't want to do.

00:18:11.65
Dr. Sarah
Right. Right. Yep.

00:18:15.53
Bill
But my point there is that I can I know I can still be a people pleaser. I know I can be. I'm sure I've got codependency in me. crazy you know enough of it you know in there, but um I don't know.

00:18:23.20
Dr. Sarah
yep.

00:18:25.69
Bill
it just it's it I think what you were talking about, it and Mike was talking about that balance.

00:18:28.13
Dr. Sarah
Yes.

00:18:29.94
Bill
It's really it's difficult to to balance it out. um What do I want to do versus somebody else? Something like you said, as much as do you want to go to the goddamn beach? What do you want to eat?

00:18:40.58
Bill
you know um I learned an old trick years ago as a sales trick.

00:18:40.94
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:18:43.37
Bill
It doesn't always work, but a lot of times it does. If you want Italian, for instance, Dr. Sarah, go to your individual, whoever it is, if it's a friend, it's if you're a significant other, say, okay, do you want to go you know have, um I don't know, Thai food or Italian food?

00:18:58.30
Dr. Sarah
There you go.

00:18:58.27
Bill
Human nature usually makes people pick the second choice that you give them.

00:19:02.14
Dr. Sarah
Oh, that's so interesting.

00:19:02.38
Bill
i don't I don't know why. I learned it in a sales program, and I would say probably two out of three times, at least it'll go in your direction.

00:19:11.13
Dr. Sarah
Wow.

00:19:11.33
Bill
If you said, do you want to go to Burger King or McDonald's, somebody, it's the last thing that they heard, so that's what they choose.

00:19:17.72
Dr. Sarah
That's fascinating. Good tip, my friend.

00:19:18.77
Bill
Try it. I mean, ah well, and again, it's, it doesn't always work, but sometimes then you're, you're, I don't know, tricking them into it, but yeah, you're, you're, you're, you're a psychologist.

00:19:20.60
Dr. Sarah
No.

00:19:25.69
Mike
he You manipulative bastard.

00:19:29.36
Bill
You're a, you're a psychologist.

00:19:29.72
Dr. Sarah
Listen, you are so cute.

00:19:30.52
Bill
Use some psychology on these motherfuckers and get your goddamn Italian food.

00:19:35.06
Dr. Sarah
So listen, I want to talk about people pleasing for a second.

00:19:35.01
Mike
All right.

00:19:38.32
Bill
Sure.

00:19:39.08
Dr. Sarah
First of all, like do you know Will Arnett? He does the smart list podcast.

00:19:42.15
Bill
Yeah.

00:19:42.33
Mike
Yeah.

00:19:43.54
Dr. Sarah
Okay. He has a famous quote. He says, people pleasing doesn't please anyone.

00:19:47.91
Bill
Right.

00:19:48.12
Dr. Sarah
And the thing is the thing with people pleasing is, is the delusion is, I'm doing this thing because I wanna please my kid or my partner or whatever. I'm doing this thing because I really feel like I have to do this thing. And it's and what we make up in our heads is it's to make someone else happy. But that's what I call the ah big lie. Because codependent behavior is never really ah about the other person. It seems that way. Oh, I want my husband to get sober. Oh, I want my kid to be ah get into this college. Oh, I want, you know, I want, um I don't know, my ah best friend to be happy. So I'm going to do X. The thing about people pleasing behavior is it's really about not being able to tolerate what I'm really feeling.

00:20:47.14
Dr. Sarah
So this is the thing.

00:20:47.47
Bill
Right.

00:20:48.85
Dr. Sarah
If I'm people pleasing a partner, a boyfriend, it's because I can't tolerate the discomfort of the reality of saying the truth to them.

00:21:01.88
Dr. Sarah
So maybe the truth is um I don't want to go to the beach, right? But I say, oh, sure, I'll go because I think they're going to be happy.

00:21:13.10
Dr. Sarah
It's really about me not wanting to tolerate The possibility of conflict, the possibility of someone rejecting me, the possibility of someone getting mad. So again, this codependent kind of paradigm comes across like it's about the other person. But codependency is really about us. That's the that's the really important piece.

00:21:40.90
Dr. Sarah
I mean, and again, you know this, growth in AA or whatever program you're doing is always going to be uncomfortable. I mean, having uncomfortable feelings is part of being human, but we're addicts. And I will tell you right now, I just said to my sweetheart on the phone an hour ago, I am tired of being uncomfortable because I literally have been uncomfortable for four months.

00:22:06.09
Mike
right

00:22:07.49
Dr. Sarah
because it's all new behavior. And it's really interesting that it doesn't matter really how long you've been sober. It doesn't matter how much work you've done. When you, and you guys, I want to hear what your experiences have been because when you like someone or when you're in the initial stages of dating or whatever,

00:22:31.18
Dr. Sarah
It's nerve wracking. I always say every old issue that you've had in your entire life gets activated in the first 90 days of a new romantic relationship. Because all of our fears are up in our face like you want to be liked. do You want to be respected. you You don't want to upset the person. You want to connect. like All of these things are happening. And meanwhile, simultaneously,

00:22:59.69
Dr. Sarah
All your old wounds, whatever those are, your guys, of being hurt, of being ashamed, of having someone reject you, of, you know, whatever, are kind of happening in a parallel space. So it's a real kind of, you know, it's funny, I was just, and this is the last thing I'll say on this, but there's an old theory of like the stages of romantic relationships, and I've been thinking about this recently.

00:23:26.08
Dr. Sarah
Like the first 90 days is like total fantasy and delusion, right? your The hormones are going, you're totally feeling like the person is the hottest person in the world.

00:23:32.69
Mike
Right.

00:23:37.12
Dr. Sarah
You're like in love, quote unquote, um everything seems to be jelly and oh my God, I've never met anyone like this in my life, right? So that's the first 90 days.

00:23:45.57
Bill
yeah

00:23:47.92
Dr. Sarah
And then you go into this phase of three to six months, which is called disillusionment. which is when you realize, oh my God, this is another separate human being.

00:24:03.37
Dr. Sarah
Oh my God, they like that TV show and I don't. They like that sport. I don't. They don't like to read and I do or whatever the stuff is.

00:24:11.93
Mike
right

00:24:12.26
Dr. Sarah
And you start recognizing your differences. And that can be, that can throw the balance off because you go from this very intense,

00:24:22.56
Dr. Sarah
like you know, we're in love type of thing to like, wow, okay, now I see you now I'm seeing these different parts of you. And in this certain theory, and I can't even remember where I read it at six months, they called it war, which is basically where where you decide like, look, either we're going to work through these differences and really get to what real love is about, or we really recognize that this isn't going to work. So I've just been thinking about that because

00:24:55.18
Dr. Sarah
um My sweetheart and I definitely have been in this kind of love zone. And now I think we're both kind of looking at each other and saying, huh, you know, what are our differences and are we going to kind of get to the next stage?

00:25:08.03
Dr. Sarah
So I'm on a rant, but um yeah.

00:25:09.90
Bill
No, I mean, that's that's important. So you you wanted to ask us how are.

00:25:13.69
Dr. Sarah
Yeah, I wanted to ask you guys about your like history of romantic relationships or just relationships.

00:25:14.45
Bill
OK.

00:25:20.80
Dr. Sarah
And like do you see patterns? like Have you guys been able to recognize your own patterns in relationships? I mean, you've done step work and all that stuff, so I'm sure you've seen some stuff.

00:25:30.55
Mike
Sure.

00:25:32.16
Dr. Sarah
Have you seen, like when I do the fourth step with people, I always try to help them identify what are their three top fears that lead to their self-seeking behaviors, their behaviors that they do out of fear that end up not getting them what they want.

00:25:42.59
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:25:51.10
Dr. Sarah
you know What are those patterns?

00:25:51.31
Mike
Right.

00:25:53.28
Dr. Sarah
So can you speak to that at all?

00:25:56.09
Mike
I mean, I yeah, okay. Um.

00:25:59.68
Dr. Sarah
we're We're diving in, Mike.

00:26:01.21
Mike
We are.

00:26:01.36
Dr. Sarah
We're diving in.

00:26:01.53
Mike
No, no, it's fine. um Okay, so this is kind of a thumbnail of my history.

00:26:06.00
Dr. Sarah
OK.

00:26:06.78
Mike
um i I wasn't in a relationship for a very long time. My only relationship was me and my substances.

00:26:14.25
Dr. Sarah
Absolutely.

00:26:15.09
Mike
right, especially, you know, the last but um eight years or so I was, I was out there. I mean, I, I just didn't, you know, I'd occasionally hook up or whatever, but that was, I mean, I just wasn't because I knew anybody would was going to get in the way of me and my substances.

00:26:24.23
Dr. Sarah
Absolutely. play

00:26:30.66
Mike
And, um, I didn't want that.

00:26:33.07
Dr. Sarah
Of course.

00:26:33.13
Mike
So, so I got sober, right? You know, the rule of thumb is, you know, wait a year.

00:26:35.97
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:26:38.15
Mike
I waited five, um,

00:26:40.04
Dr. Sarah
Good for you.

00:26:40.91
Mike
Yeah, whatever. Well, but we'll see.

00:26:43.92
Dr. Sarah
Well, yeah, well, it wasn't that easy.

00:26:44.10
Mike
Hang on.

00:26:46.16
Bill
hahaha

00:26:46.41
Mike
No, it certainly wasn't.

00:26:47.27
Dr. Sarah
Okay. Yeah.

00:26:48.67
Mike
um I finally did. um And it was all kinds of screwed up and wrong. And um yeah, ah well, I was lied to.

00:26:55.25
Dr. Sarah
Why?

00:26:58.55
Mike
um shoot

00:27:00.49
Dr. Sarah
So you picked someone that betrayed you?

00:27:03.61
Mike
but Yeah, yeah sort of um and I allowed it I allowed it to happen I know I took my I take my responsibility my side of it and all of that um, you know, she was in California it was mutual we had mutual friends and um So she moved to Cleveland with me and um, yeah, you know, she said she was five years sober.

00:27:06.04
Dr. Sarah
Okay.

00:27:24.33
Mike
She absolutely was not um and Right and you know, it was just you know, it was oh Yeah.

00:27:27.36
Dr. Sarah
Wow.

00:27:31.09
Dr. Sarah
Was she using?

00:27:33.55
Mike
Yeah

00:27:33.74
Dr. Sarah
Oh, so that's God. Oh my God, Mike, this is a whole, this is a whole other episode.

00:27:37.78
Mike
Oh yeah.

00:27:38.20
Dr. Sarah
Um, yeah.

00:27:38.22
Mike
Right. You know, in my house, I mean, not, not horribly, but you know, she wasn't like, but she was. Yeah. She was doing pills and stuff. And, and yeah, you know, ah absolutely.

00:27:47.93
Dr. Sarah
So tricky though. So tricky.

00:27:50.80
Mike
Right.

00:27:50.90
Dr. Sarah
I mean, that's why I wrote the book.

00:27:51.12
Mike
and

00:27:52.50
Dr. Sarah
I mean, my God, same thing happened.

00:27:52.86
Mike
Right. And you know, I let it go on for a little too long.

00:27:54.94
Dr. Sarah
Yeah.

00:27:56.54
Mike
You know, um, I should have cut out off sooner, but I didn't, and it resolved itself. She yeah couldn't stand being with a sober person.

00:28:03.78
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:28:04.12
Mike
Uh, you know, and so she left and that was great. Um, and very good.

00:28:08.79
Dr. Sarah
All right. So let me ask you something though. All right. So, cause I think a lot of times with relationships too, and I talk about this in the book around codependency, like the same components of addiction.

00:28:17.77
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:28:21.03
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:28:21.35
Dr. Sarah
like minimizing, rationalizing, denial, romanticizing, all of those cognitive components.

00:28:24.12
Mike
Mm hmm. Right.

00:28:27.45
Dr. Sarah
I do think we do similar things initially in a relationship, because you know what?

00:28:32.43
Mike
Initially.

00:28:32.55
Dr. Sarah
We want what we want.

00:28:34.53
Mike
Right.

00:28:34.72
Dr. Sarah
So when you look back, and I had to do this with my own you know marriage, when you look back, do you say to yourself, wow, gee, there was a red flag and I dismissed it, or yeah, OK, yeah.

00:28:34.81
Mike
Absolutely. Mm hmm.

00:28:40.14
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:28:46.01
Mike
Oh, you many. Yeah, absolutely. No, and it was, um, and it was actually, it was good. It was a learning experience. You know, I learned what not to do.

00:28:57.81
Mike
Um, right, you know, and it was, yeah, it was what it was and it was experience.

00:28:57.94
Dr. Sarah
Absolutely.

00:29:02.55
Mike
I needed to go through. It was my, my little training relationship, uh, in sobriety and, um, and then not too long after that, um, I met another woman who I've been with for eight years now.

00:29:06.29
Dr. Sarah
Absolutely. Got it

00:29:15.89
Mike
Yeah, right. And, um, but you know, I, I've learned my mistakes and I learned, um, I, I found my boundaries and I, this relationship is very different than anyone I've ever had before.

00:29:28.04
Mike
Um, I've, I truly incorporate the things I've learned in the program. Um, in this relationship, we don't live together. We never have, um, you know, I, um, well I mean,

00:29:37.28
Dr. Sarah
Got it? How is it different? When you say it's much different, how is it different?

00:29:45.23
Mike
Like every one of my relationships back when I was using, um, I, I use them to for survival, you know, right.

00:29:50.73
Dr. Sarah
Right, right, yes.

00:29:52.80
Mike
I mean, that was, that's my pattern always has been. Um, and I didn't with this first one in sobriety, but she did to me and I went, Oh, that's so interesting.

00:29:59.95
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:30:01.95
Mike
All right.

00:30:02.33
Dr. Sarah
Right, yeah, I get it.

00:30:02.31
Mike
Thank you. Uh, right.

00:30:05.11
Dr. Sarah
Ouch. That's what I'd say.

00:30:06.36
Mike
No.

00:30:06.88
Dr. Sarah
Ouch.

00:30:07.06
Mike
And it's, no, it's fine. It's what needed to happen. I needed to see that other side. Um, No, it's, it's, it's just, I, I switch.

00:30:16.44
Dr. Sarah
All right. Let me ask you one other question.

00:30:17.77
Mike
Go ahead.

00:30:18.54
Dr. Sarah
All right. Cause I gotta, I got, my mind is spinning now.

00:30:18.78
Mike
Go ahead. Sure.

00:30:21.36
Dr. Sarah
Um, what, what would you say were give me two kind of relational, I don't know, not situations, but what would you say would be one of your struggles or one of your, like if we're looking at codependency and where I kind of have a hard time speaking up or where I might compromise or where I deny, what would what would you say is one of the relationship issues that you're working on that kind of pops up and activates you?

00:30:37.68
Mike
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

00:30:54.21
Mike
um Now?

00:30:56.77
Dr. Sarah
Yeah, like ah over the eight years, like has there been a certain issue that you notice keeps coming back that you're working on?

00:30:59.06
Mike
Right.

00:31:04.77
Mike
No, not really.

00:31:05.63
Dr. Sarah
No, not at all.

00:31:05.93
Mike
No, no.

00:31:06.86
Dr. Sarah
Okay, got it.

00:31:07.24
Mike
I mean, it's it's it's weird. it It is. It's very strange. But I again, you know, I have my boundaries and I have respect for her. Her feelings matter.

00:31:17.25
Mike
And so do mine.

00:31:18.75
Dr. Sarah
Nice.

00:31:18.83
Mike
And we're we're yeah, you know, and we're like that. She's a normie, which is good. um i i I say very often I'm not her first alcoholic, but I am her first sober one.

00:31:24.08
Dr. Sarah
Got it.

00:31:29.53
Mike
um so yeah right I mean she's had you know yeah the oh yeah she has um and she's dealt with us for a very for most of her life her father was an alcoholic and blah blah blah blah blah right and so we

00:31:30.35
Dr. Sarah
Right. Right. Yeah. She's been around. Yeah. Right.

00:31:45.00
Mike
We have this really cool relationship where we understand each other yet we completely don't and that's okay we understand that we don't understand the other side of it and it's wonderful.

00:31:54.36
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:31:54.89
Bill
Yeah, right.

00:31:55.91
Dr. Sarah
Right. Right.

00:31:56.37
Mike
It's great you know and and we support each other and we we you know she knows if i gotta do something sobriety wise she absolutely.

00:31:56.49
Dr. Sarah
Right. Right.

00:32:03.74
Mike
she doesn't resent it at all.

00:32:05.31
Dr. Sarah
respects that.

00:32:05.54
Mike
Yeah.

00:32:05.79
Dr. Sarah
Yes.

00:32:05.83
Mike
yes Well, she understands how important it is from both sides.

00:32:09.29
Dr. Sarah
Right. Right.

00:32:10.62
Mike
Um, you know, right. And, and it's kind of the same way, you know, her normie stuff, whatever the hell that happens to be. I don't know. Um, but yeah, we, we give each other space yet we're very close.

00:32:21.40
Mike
Um, it's yeah, you know, it's.

00:32:21.92
Dr. Sarah
Nice. It sounds like, I mean, I always say the most important thing is willingness to grow and willingness to like communication obviously is huge.

00:32:29.44
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:32:33.95
Mike
Right. yeah Right.

00:32:34.71
Bill
Right.

00:32:34.81
Dr. Sarah
And like you're talking about being able to hear, you know, the thing about communication is people don't realize this. You can validate someone's experience without agreeing with it, right?

00:32:48.20
Mike
Oh, absolutely.

00:32:49.20
Dr. Sarah
Yeah.

00:32:49.24
Mike
Right.

00:32:49.48
Bill
Yep.

00:32:49.71
Dr. Sarah
And it's so important to be able to say, hey, honey, I really get you can be angry about that or, you know, validate whatever they're experiencing, even though you don't understand it or don't even agree with it.

00:32:56.29
Mike
Mm hmm. Absolutely. Right. Oh, absolutely.

00:33:02.17
Dr. Sarah
So that's huge.

00:33:03.51
Mike
Yeah, you know, I mean, you know, politically we're kind of opposite, um, you know, and that's fine.

00:33:03.81
Dr. Sarah
That's huge.

00:33:08.11
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:33:09.73
Mike
We don't talk about it a lot. We talk about it enough though, you know, especially like right now, you know, right.

00:33:14.03
Dr. Sarah
Right now, right.

00:33:15.36
Mike
Exactly. You know, I mean, she hates Trump. I think he's a buffoon.

00:33:18.87
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:33:19.92
Mike
Um,

00:33:22.84
Mike
but, um, you know, I'm not real fan of the other side either. I'm not a fan of either side.

00:33:25.90
Dr. Sarah
Right, right.

00:33:27.14
Mike
Um, but you know, it's stuff like that. I mean, it's just, we just,

00:33:30.58
Dr. Sarah
You can accept each other's differences though, which is really cool.

00:33:32.54
Mike
We do, yes.

00:33:33.57
Bill
Right.

00:33:34.10
Mike
And and we and we respect them.

00:33:34.24
Dr. Sarah
It sounds like you worked through that.

00:33:36.42
Mike
you know I mean, I understand where she's coming from.

00:33:36.56
Dr. Sarah
yeah Yes, yes.

00:33:38.62
Mike
She understands where I'm coming from. And you know when you're gonna love this. We have never screamed at each other, ever, in eight years, we just you know which blows us both away.

00:33:50.36
Mike
um But we just don't.

00:33:50.97
Dr. Sarah
I think that's awesome though.

00:33:52.51
Mike
Yeah, right. cause i mean it's like no If I get to the point where I need to scream at her, what the fuck am I doing in the same room with her?

00:33:53.89
Dr. Sarah
Yeah.

00:34:00.08
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:34:00.51
Mike
you know that that

00:34:00.63
Bill
Right.

00:34:00.89
Dr. Sarah
But I do think, you know, you brought up a really great point. I think, I think processing people's anger or working it through in whatever way you're doing it with your sweetheart

00:34:04.35
Mike
Yeah.

00:34:12.11
Mike
yeah

00:34:12.51
Dr. Sarah
It's like, to me, that is so critical because I think most people are so afraid.

00:34:18.33
Mike
Right.

00:34:18.64
Dr. Sarah
either Either they're blowing up and taking it out, or they're repressing it.

00:34:23.79
Mike
Right.

00:34:24.13
Dr. Sarah
And it sounds like you're at least acknowledging it and not and you know it's there.

00:34:27.02
Mike
Oh. Oh, right.

00:34:28.92
Dr. Sarah
But you know to repress it is not good either.

00:34:29.79
Mike
And and it really quite, and quite frankly, that's not much. I mean, just it's like, again, if, if, if I'm that angry at anyone, I don't care who it is.

00:34:36.00
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:34:41.27
Mike
You know, if it's Bill, if it's you, if it's anybody, if I'm not angry with what the fuck am I having any kind of relationship with them?

00:34:44.08
Dr. Sarah
Right?

00:34:48.62
Mike
Why? If they're making me that mad, I don't want you in my life. Cause I'm, you know,

00:34:53.48
Dr. Sarah
Well, oh my gosh, you're saying another really important thing. Bill, we're getting to you next.

00:34:57.41
Mike
right.

00:34:58.94
Dr. Sarah
The other important thing is is about the anger is, and I totally believe this, that 97% of the time, 99% of the time you're really angry, it's not about the present moment.

00:34:58.87
Bill
Oh no, you're good. I'm enjoying this.

00:35:12.12
Mike
oh e youre

00:35:12.56
Dr. Sarah
so

00:35:12.80
Bill
All right, right.

00:35:13.02
Mike
you

00:35:13.69
Dr. Sarah
Right. So usually.

00:35:14.41
Mike
Yeah, well if you're that angry you're scared to fucking death it all comes from fear

00:35:18.03
Dr. Sarah
Yes, exactly. So yes, exactly. It's usually like you say, an old fear. And usually you can go back and figure out what it's about, like what is getting activated, what fear is getting activated and what event in your past is this particular thing reminding you of.

00:35:30.66
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:35:37.46
Mike
Right.

00:35:37.53
Dr. Sarah
So it is, you can do that. And I mean, at least you guys seem to know that. A lot of people don't know that, gee, when I'm screaming at my kid, it's not about my kid.

00:35:42.08
Mike
Yeah. No, I know. Right.

00:35:47.05
Dr. Sarah
It's about me, right?

00:35:47.23
Bill
Ha

00:35:48.75
Mike
Right.

00:35:49.56
Dr. Sarah
Yeah.

00:35:49.54
Mike
yeah and And I don't. i You know what? I don't scream at anybody anymore.

00:35:54.29
Dr. Sarah
Which is awesome.

00:35:54.33
Mike
I just don't. Yeah, I just why.

00:35:56.53
Dr. Sarah
i am I totally am with you. you know I remember saying to sponsors, we don't get the luxury of doing that anymore. like If you're doing sober behavior, you're not screaming at people.

00:36:04.97
Mike
Right. Mm-hmm. No.

00:36:08.65
Dr. Sarah
This is called adulting. We're talking about things.

00:36:10.18
Mike
Yeah.

00:36:11.42
Dr. Sarah
If you have intense feelings, then deal with your intense feelings.

00:36:11.50
Mike
Right.

00:36:13.51
Bill
ha ha ha!

00:36:14.78
Mike
Mm-hmm.

00:36:15.47
Dr. Sarah
We don't get to take them out on people.

00:36:17.16
Mike
No, we don't. and it And again, it all comes down to, I'm old, I'm tired, I don't have that much time left.

00:36:18.00
Dr. Sarah
Yeah, yeah.

00:36:24.75
Mike
I'm i'm not wasting it on on ah being being full of turmoil.

00:36:27.08
Dr. Sarah
Amen, brother.

00:36:29.38
Mike
you know I was promised a new piece and a new serenity and goddamn it, nobody's fucking that up.

00:36:29.58
Dr. Sarah
Amen.

00:36:35.08
Bill
yeah

00:36:35.73
Dr. Sarah
Amen. You got it.

00:36:36.89
Bill
Yeah, and we we actually we talk about that a lot as far as the mic always says, you know, I'm not I've wasted too many calories in my life. I'm not wasting any more calories on whatever the thing is.

00:36:46.67
Dr. Sarah
Oh yeah.

00:36:48.05
Mike
Mm

00:36:48.23
Bill
But that but that is that that's true. I mean, if if we are getting so angry about anything, they're, in my opinion, if I if I get to that point where

00:36:54.84
Dr. Sarah
Yes.

00:36:57.47
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:36:57.83
Bill
I'm completely lit up about something I need to figure out what it is because if I snapped at the person in front of me it I'll say I think you're right about that 99% of the time it has nothing to do with this person that's in front of me um unless they were you know you get somebody is nitpicking at you nitpicking but still that could be based on based on something else and I try really hard to try to figure out okay you know what what is my fucking problem right now

00:37:01.71
Dr. Sarah
Yes.

00:37:14.21
Mike
-hmm

00:37:14.45
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:37:22.08
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:37:22.39
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:37:22.44
Bill
because that's not me to blow up right now and then usually like like you said like you said Dr. Sarah is that we can go back I can usually pick it out and like okay you know and maybe it's a work thing is this and maybe that and then it was this Mike and I talked about this just a couple of weeks ago but it's a constant thing we talk about is this fear-based stuff that everything's based in fear

00:37:25.46
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:37:41.39
Dr. Sarah
Oh yeah.

00:37:42.69
Bill
And it came up, I think, as a revelation to me on this podcast, probably, what do we think? Like two years ago, I think, when we were like, you know, six months into this thing and we started talking about something and then I think Mike brought up or we were doing a reading, whatever the deal was, and I'm like, Jesus Christ, you know, and then everything from that point forward, whether I'm, ah you know, if I'm angry, if I'm anxious, if I'm upset,

00:37:49.62
Mike
Yeah.

00:38:07.45
Bill
if it's this negative emotion that i have it'll take me a minute sometimes there's maybe two or three steps back i have to take but it is it's fear-based and it blew my mind because but i'll tell you what it's it's been such a huge tool for me because i don't have to look that far anymore if i am

00:38:13.07
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:38:18.74
Dr. Sarah
Yes, always.

00:38:19.23
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:38:28.41
Bill
if i am wound up about something i'm like okay where's the fear and as soon as as soon as i find it then i can work through it even if i have to this quite honestly has become i don't know if it is much for mike sure as fuck has become a therapy session for me being on this podcast every week i can't even tell you the number of things that have popped up in conversations where i'm like huh

00:38:28.55
Dr. Sarah
Oh, God, yeah.

00:38:32.09
Dr. Sarah
That's right.

00:38:41.66
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:38:50.64
Dr. Sarah
Yes.

00:38:50.78
Bill
really, you know, or that's, that's what it means.

00:38:51.90
Dr. Sarah
Yes.

00:38:52.30
Mike
he

00:38:54.18
Bill
That's what it says. That's what it is. That's how I'm feeling.

00:38:56.14
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:38:56.93
Bill
I'm like, God, I never thought about it, but it, it happens so randomly. We never, you know, I'll hear something on a podcast that we start talking about it. And Mike takes this, he'll take this road over here a little bit.

00:39:07.74
Bill
And I'm thinking here, and then, you know, these, putting these two things together, it's these, it's these all new ways of looking at things.

00:39:08.21
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:39:13.86
Bill
And it's been, it's been spectacular.

00:39:16.49
Dr. Sarah
Absolutely.

00:39:16.42
Bill
You know, it's been great.

00:39:17.02
Mike
he he he he he he he

00:39:17.71
Bill
I mean really it just it's it's crazy you know who would think that you know it literally the only reason we started this yeah get together have a conversation talk some sober shit do whatever but it was doing it to have fun just the two of us we never thought that it would it okay great it benefits a few people out there wonderful good for you thank you for listening go tell somebody that's great

00:39:17.87
Dr. Sarah
Absolutely.

00:39:38.91
Bill
you know but the it's really I think it's really helped us. um you know just it's It's added a whole new piece of void, and I mentioned that to begin with when we first started this.

00:39:42.54
Mike
Mmhmm.

00:39:42.79
Dr. Sarah
So true.

00:39:49.95
Bill
I didn't know I had a void, but this filled a void that I had in my recovery that I didn't even know was there.

00:39:52.67
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:39:56.18
Bill
It was cool.

00:39:56.55
Dr. Sarah
Got it. Is it because of the connection, like just being in connection with people or you and Mike being connected or just having these conversations?

00:40:01.88
Bill
No, just having just having a, Just an open unbridled conversation with no direction.

00:40:04.97
Dr. Sarah
Just the exploration. Yeah. Yes.

00:40:09.83
Bill
Yes, i have I write down notes, I write down little one-liners that I get from readings or hear from on a podcast or things like that.

00:40:09.98
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:40:16.57
Bill
But i'll um if yeah if anyone anyone out there that's listened for a while, we'll usually do a reading to be begin with. We've got sort of structure, right? At least we do a reading, right, Mike, to begin with.

00:40:24.73
Dr. Sarah
Yeah.

00:40:25.89
Mike
Right. yeah that's Yeah, that's about it.

00:40:26.95
Bill
you know but then but then we it's a it's a five minute reading but sometimes it's a ten minute conversation or it's a thirty minute conversation and we both read that thing that same day or that at some point we've read it before and then you know just little things are like you know how do you feel about that are we ever talk about this and we get into these these conversations so what it is is that

00:40:27.97
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:40:47.32
Bill
It is a it's just a completely open and, again, unscripted and unedited conversation that we have every week that we wouldn't have.

00:40:52.07
Dr. Sarah
yes

00:40:56.55
Bill
It's not like Mike and I didn't talk when we what we did or when we do spend time together, but we don't talk like this.

00:40:58.89
Mike
right

00:41:03.27
Bill
you know we don't We do in a loose sense. Um, but it's been, uh, I guess if I, again, quote unquote structured, you know, way for us to have these conversations, which, um, again, they've been, like you said, the, the why behind it is just that it's, it's opening up things that we, uh, we can predict.

00:41:10.31
Dr. Sarah
Yes.

00:41:18.23
Dr. Sarah
Right. Yeah, I mean, that so often happens when you just made me think of, like when I say to people, when you have an upset, like a lot of times we don't know why we're having an upset, right?

00:41:28.68
Mike
All right. Hmm.

00:41:31.77
Dr. Sarah
Just like you're saying, you're having a conversation and you're learning things you didn't even know that you were going to learn that was there.

00:41:32.11
Bill
Right.

00:41:39.17
Dr. Sarah
And it's the same, like ah one of the tools that's so great is

00:41:39.48
Bill
Hey.

00:41:44.66
Dr. Sarah
I say this to people in recovery, like and I know you guys have had these days, I have them, where you just have something, like you're just a little off, but you're not sure why.

00:41:51.73
Mike
Mhm.

00:41:55.08
Bill
Right.

00:41:55.39
Dr. Sarah
And what I do is I write across the top of a piece of paper, and this will help any of your listeners who are struggling. You write, what am I afraid of? What am I angry about?

00:42:05.55
Dr. Sarah
Or what am I sad about? And usually, if you do some free writing and you just You just write. just Whatever comes to mind, you get to, what is the underlying feeling state that's creating this kind of unsettled feeling? And usually, you know it might have been a resentment that happened a couple of days ago. It might have been some grief that you know you felt when you saw a friend relapsed, it might be some fear in a relationship.

00:42:36.64
Dr. Sarah
So often our emotional states are kind of percolating under there. And especially if you're someone in recovery, I mean, my God, I would have an event happen and a week later I'd have the feeling.

00:42:48.10
Dr. Sarah
You know what I mean? It's like they weren't lined up because I was so used to just putting a substance, like let's just forget that feeling that it took a while

00:42:49.38
Mike
Mmhmm.

00:42:49.51
Bill
Right?

00:42:58.84
Dr. Sarah
to have an event and an experience and the feelings happen at the same time. And especially if you're busy or you're at work or you're you know you got a busy life, a lot of times we have the all these experiences and we don't really know something started percolating until we're kind of sitting by ourselves and we're irritable, restless and discontent. Or we're just kind of off the beam a little and we don't know why.

00:43:25.21
Dr. Sarah
I mean, those are the feeling states that can lead to some self discovery. Of course, there's other things like, you know, getting connected with people, I mean, or whatever. But um yeah, that's kind of a helpful tool sometimes if you're feeling a little off. But Bill, what about your relationship stuff? Are you going to share anything?

00:43:44.93
Bill
Oh yeah, absolutely, but based based on the time though, let's take a, what do you think Mike?

00:43:47.29
Mike
Mm hmm.

00:43:48.89
Dr. Sarah
Oh, my God, we got to take a break.

00:43:49.01
Bill
Take a break and then we'll get back into it.

00:43:50.05
Mike
That's this is called a teaser.

00:43:50.29
Dr. Sarah
That's right.

00:43:52.58
Dr. Sarah
That's right.

00:43:53.18
Bill
We'll be right back with we'll be right back with Bill's fucked up life.

00:43:53.34
Dr. Sarah
OK, go ahead.

00:43:56.11
Mike
Right after these words from our sponsor.

00:43:56.14
Bill
yeah

00:44:08.50
Bill
all right everyone welcome back yeah and you think you think i'm joking right god okay dr Dr. Sarah buckle up no i'm just kidding so

00:44:10.88
Mike
Hee hee hee.

00:44:16.26
Mike
Hee hee hee.

00:44:17.46
Dr. Sarah
I'm ready. Buckle up fasten your seatbelt, baby.

00:44:20.00
Bill
No, here's, i this is this is really, I think, very simplistic. i'm I'm sure there's more to it than this, but I can explain this very simplistically.

00:44:28.05
Dr. Sarah
Okay.

00:44:28.58
Bill
Prior to sobriety, um every woman I got involved with, I fell in love with, okay? In a sense. I didn't know it at the time, but I know it now. I would fall for people and fall hard and fall fast, okay?

00:44:42.55
Dr. Sarah
And what did, was there a certain type?

00:44:42.88
Bill
And type of,

00:44:45.80
Dr. Sarah
I mean, meaning were they angry women? Were they women that were unavailable? Were they like, was there a theme?

00:44:53.57
Bill
No, because like like my first my first wife, um although she can be, but my daughter's mom, she can be very strong in whatever.

00:44:54.36
Dr. Sarah
No.

00:45:01.04
Bill
She's also, um I would say more of a, you know not necessarily a, is we didn't line up like, I'm kind of headstrong and I guess stubborn and dominant.

00:45:11.98
Bill
She can be too, but not necessarily as much at a relationship level.

00:45:16.07
Dr. Sarah
Okay.

00:45:16.04
Bill
you know so But then when I met my my second well turn out be my second ex-wife, she and I line up very well from our from our our humor to our determination, to our stubbornness, to how we care about people and love people, that sort of thing was very much the same.

00:45:32.85
Bill
But know but those relationships went two different directions. The first one, You know, when she was young, she got pregnant, we got together, we kind of grew apart as people. I don't think we really knew each other very well.

00:45:43.62
Bill
Whereas the second one, you know, you want to talk about it was it was flaming hot or it was it was really, really good or it was really, really bad, you know.

00:45:52.49
Dr. Sarah
Oh my God, my first marriage. Yeah, I get it.

00:45:54.27
Bill
Yeah, so we went but I mean, I she's she's a wonderful individual and both of those relationships ended because of me and my who I am and my drinking and all just at different levels in different states, but it is what it is, you know, but there really wasn't

00:46:08.58
Dr. Sarah
So those were during the drinking years.

00:46:10.68
Bill
Yes, but I didn't really have, I didn't have a type as far as, um quite honestly, I never really, I never really, um I'm not necessarily attracted to um real meek and mild women.

00:46:11.26
Dr. Sarah
Yeah. Okay.

00:46:23.80
Bill
I don't want to be, although I am a control freak, I don't want to be in a relationship, you know. I don't want to have to always validate somebody. I don't want to always be the one that makes decisions. I like, I do like stronger women and more, you know, people that are more on my, I don't want to say on my level, but that we see more eye to eye with that part of it.

00:46:35.64
Dr. Sarah
Got it.

00:46:42.15
Bill
I don't like that role of, um because maybe my dad was

00:46:44.71
Dr. Sarah
Caretaker.

00:46:45.86
Bill
Yeah, my dad was more of a almost like a 50s kind of guy, you know He was the worker this and that I was never where my mom was a different way My mom was an extremely strong woman.

00:46:50.94
Dr. Sarah
Oh, got it.

00:46:54.19
Bill
So as my sister and I think I learned from those two people, okay um Now since I got since I got sober um and I didn't I didn't really date much in the first handful of years I had I had one circumstance and You know, that's it.

00:47:07.22
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:47:10.91
Dr. Sarah
I love the word.

00:47:12.99
Bill
It was a mutual thing. We got together.

00:47:15.03
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:47:15.11
Bill
That was it. was that was it you know But um the first time I actually started dating, I was probably ah five years sober and met a sober person and then met a few other so but sober people, mainly people through dating apps and that sort of thing.

00:47:28.63
Dr. Sarah
ye Yep.

00:47:28.82
Bill
And the thing of it is that i've had I've had a variety of circumstances um happen throughout that timeframe. I've had women that, a couple of people, um two individuals that I've spent time with over the years that, you know, were sober, drank, and I walked away.

00:47:43.83
Bill
um You know, drank or used and I walked away.

00:47:44.18
Dr. Sarah
Wow.

00:47:45.96
Bill
um One was really tough, you know, and I knew it, it wouldn't be admitted, and and I walked away.

00:47:46.26
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:47:51.07
Bill
um Still friends, we reconcile all that stuff. um One was, said she was cool, you know, with what I was doing, with like Mike said, if he's got something to do with the sobriety standpoint, he goes ahead and did it.

00:48:03.76
Bill
said she was cool with it do what my deal was but then start giving me some stuff and I'm like if you can't deal with this and certainly if you can't trust me I can't I can't hang with you you know um one other person very controlling I to begin with we got together as friends um you know but ultimately you know she was like okay this is I cool you know kind of have more relationship type of thing

00:48:08.05
Dr. Sarah
Wow. Wow.

00:48:24.70
Bill
um Obviously that that turned more of the intimate, to and then she wanted this whole, she had this plan where she wanted to you know be married by a certain point in this and that.

00:48:31.89
Dr. Sarah
Oh, wow.

00:48:31.88
Bill
And I'm like, i'm like I don't even know where I'm gonna be in five years.

00:48:32.99
Dr. Sarah
Got it.

00:48:36.87
Bill
And that was probably seven years ago, and I'm on a completely different path from where I was then.

00:48:42.13
Dr. Sarah
Got it.

00:48:42.20
Bill
But the thing of it is, here's what I learned, and I don't remember where I learned it from, at least of myself.

00:48:44.38
Dr. Sarah
Okay.

00:48:47.13
Bill
i I learned how to love people on different levels.

00:48:49.25
Dr. Sarah
Hmm.

00:48:51.40
Bill
And the the love that I have for Mike, for instance, is different than the love I have for my children. um you know i could I could tell either one of my ex-wives, it'd probably make them uncomfortable, but I love both of them, but not the way that I was when we were married.

00:48:57.37
Dr. Sarah
yep.

00:49:05.05
Bill
you know that was That was marriage love and intimate love.

00:49:05.65
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:49:07.93
Bill
But I have not been in love since I've been sober, and I know the difference.

00:49:12.07
Dr. Sarah
got it yep.

00:49:13.13
Bill
I know what it feels like. I thought I could have been with a couple of individuals, but those things didn't last. um And I will not settle. I'm not going to, I'm not gonna, I don't know that I ever want to get married again, not for any other reason.

00:49:26.92
Bill
I just don't see the point. I can't have children anymore.

00:49:28.32
Dr. Sarah
Right. Yep.

00:49:29.47
Bill
I wouldn't mind having a, you know, again, whatever you want to call it, a life partner, or whatever. um But it's not completely out of the realm. If if I had, if there was some reason and it had felt right, I would do it. I can never say never.

00:49:40.46
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:49:40.66
Bill
But the thing of it is, is that, And it kind of popped into my head when you were you were talking about something before Dr. Dr. Sarah, but um it reminded me of, it's a horrible movie, sort of good, sort of horrible, Jerry McGuire.

00:49:51.64
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:49:52.38
Bill
um rene Renee Zellweger in there, she's talking to her sister about the men she's been with.

00:49:53.06
Dr. Sarah
Yeah. Right.

00:49:58.08
Bill
And she's like, she's like I've had three lovers in the last five years and they've only compared you know just just shy of a good book and a warm bath. you know and Now, i don't I don't read books in a bathtub, but I understand what she means.

00:50:11.40
Dr. Sarah
Right, right.

00:50:11.51
Bill
you know i don't it if i i therere i don't know I know what it's like to be in love. I know what it's like to be really comfortable with somebody.

00:50:19.56
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:50:19.57
Bill
I don't want to force a relationship. um

00:50:22.55
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:50:22.65
Bill
I'm fine at this age. I'm you know i'm almost 56 in a couple of weeks. um Women our age or within our age group don't seem to want to date anymore.

00:50:30.63
Dr. Sarah
Absolutely.

00:50:31.88
Bill
Everyone wants to get married. I'm fine with dating people. I don't see what's wrong with it. i i'm not I'm not a pig.

00:50:36.50
Dr. Sarah
play

00:50:37.58
Bill
I'm not out there one night standing. I'm out there trying to hook up with people and all those sort of things. That doesn't feel right to me. I don't have the i don't have the desire to use somebody as a human masturbator you know because that's really what it is.

00:50:49.16
Dr. Sarah
Right. Amen. Yep.

00:50:51.13
Bill
yeah I mean, sex is, eh, but the thing of it is is that there are certain times when you know i I've had choices to you know to to spend time with somebody versus doing something else and I'm like, eh, I'm okay doing this, you know?

00:50:52.05
Dr. Sarah
Yeah, but I think that's a sign of growth. I think that's great.

00:51:05.94
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:51:06.08
Bill
um Or you know will this person understand? But to that point back to this people pleasing, there's two individuals, two of the people that I've mentioned through this thing over the last five minutes or whatever it's been,

00:51:18.47
Bill
Um, when I knew shit was getting bad with both of them and I, uh, I basically, I canceled both of them.

00:51:21.89
Dr. Sarah
yep.

00:51:24.61
Bill
Uh, there was separate times. I wasn't seeing both of them at the same time, but in both circumstances, they wanted to do something. And I i said, no. And I knew it would cause a problem.

00:51:36.80
Dr. Sarah
got it.

00:51:36.99
Bill
And I was fine with it because at that point i'm like I'm like, let's see if I can fix the glitch because I can't stand this. And to that point is if I could avoid conflict without saying I was done and knew when they'd walk away, I'm fine with it.

00:51:50.79
Bill
you know But in it I knew that it was at that point and it was just, I'm like, okay, either I have to make a decision, but let me test this and see if it's that bad.

00:51:51.40
Dr. Sarah
Got it.

00:51:59.18
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:51:59.42
Bill
because I thought it was and it was because just me canceling, um, do you want to get together and have dinner on Wednesday?

00:51:59.86
Dr. Sarah
And it was. Yeah. Right.

00:52:05.07
Bill
Yeah. But then, oh, something came up. I can't like, you know what this, this isn't working if you can't even do this for me.

00:52:09.22
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:52:09.98
Bill
And I'm like, okay. I knew it was going that way. Um, but so the, the, the, I think, right.

00:52:12.44
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:52:16.50
Dr. Sarah
But then you said some great things though. You said, you know, you're not going to settle and you know what you want and you're not, you know, you're not going to get married when you're in a different state.

00:52:27.38
Dr. Sarah
And I think ah all those things are really positive. And I mean, to not stay in relationships that aren't working, I think is huge because we both know people that stay in relationships that aren't working.

00:52:40.23
Bill
Right?

00:52:40.98
Dr. Sarah
So I think all those things are really good.

00:52:41.27
Bill
and and and i've been And I've been in two, you know, when I learned stuff. ah the The women, my two XY's were not the problem.

00:52:45.81
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:52:48.25
Bill
Yes, everyone's got a part in everything. We all get that, you know?

00:52:51.48
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:52:51.80
Bill
But um i i have I have reconciled with um both of them. um I can be and not only be in the same room with them, I can hang out with them, I can have fun with them.

00:53:02.60
Bill
um I can you know, I get hugs from both of them and I mean I I have these I have these good solid relationships with with these people that I Completely fucked over in a bad way really, you know, but I mean I've been able to to rekindle those things which is cool um But like I said, I mean there's there are Mike and I were talking about was that last week lonely versus loneliness fire alone versus low, okay, I And like I alluded to the fact that the only, and I don't feel lonely not being involved with somebody of the opposite sex.

00:53:23.56
Mike
Yeah.

00:53:24.04
Dr. Sarah
Got it.

00:53:25.14
Mike
Yep.

00:53:32.90
Bill
um I do, I miss that connection. because therere And yeah I was laughing when you said the first three months, because you know they you know right out of the gate, maybe it's both of you figure out you know right but what is the appropriate time you know where you guys can fuck is kind of what everyone's trying to get to.

00:53:36.14
Dr. Sarah
Of course.

00:53:49.34
Bill
you know without I mean without people feeling like okay I'm a slut or I'm a pig you know so that thing but on top of that it is it's that true it's that fire it's that passion it's like early sobriety you know these early parts of these relationships but the key there is is okay what happens then you know can I can I deal with the person do I want is is a warm bath and a good book better than going to hang out with this person

00:53:51.83
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:54:01.53
Dr. Sarah
Yep. Yes.

00:54:13.43
Bill
you know And Mike's girlfriend, Chris, i mean she's ah she's a normie, but she's one of us.

00:54:15.51
Dr. Sarah
It's.

00:54:19.02
Mike
Hmm.

00:54:19.02
Bill
um And that's the other big part that I think, Mike, not that you failed to say it, but that you didn't include, is the fact that she is deeply, deeply involved in our community, and I mean the sober community.

00:54:22.18
Mike
Hmm.

00:54:29.36
Mike
Right.

00:54:30.31
Bill
um She does things with us, but the other turn, and Mike makes a point of this all the time, is that he's there for her, for like he said, whenever she wants to do to charity things and all those sort of things, it's this mix

00:54:36.64
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:54:40.29
Mike
I've got to do one tomorrow.

00:54:42.04
Bill
yeah Yeah, and that that's what made that's what made me think about it because yeah, when I texted you the other day about that other thing that we'll talk about next week, but um you know it's just these, it is this give and take and it's and it's really hard.

00:54:42.43
Dr. Sarah
Wow.

00:54:53.72
Bill
The the biggest problem that i that I've run into in this, again, in these dating things is that you know dating apps is like, I try to be upfront.

00:54:59.88
Dr. Sarah
Dating. Yep.

00:55:03.65
Bill
ill you know I match with somebody and then little back and forth, little ha ha, poke, poke, how you doing?

00:55:08.40
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:55:09.09
Bill
Here's who I am, here's you. um If somebody doesn't communicate with me, I'm done. If you can't have a conversation, if it's one word and two word sentences coming back, come on, open up to me, I wanna learn about you.

00:55:15.17
Dr. Sarah
Absolutely.

00:55:18.07
Mike
Hmm.

00:55:18.73
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:55:19.21
Bill
I mean, that's the whole fucking point, you know? um But, you know, I tell people, I tell them that i've been so you know I don't drink, I'm sober, it's important to me and maybe it's important to you.

00:55:22.21
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:55:29.63
Bill
I've had people say, hey, good for you, i'm I'm proud of what you're doing, but I do like to have some beers, I do like to drink some wine, you know, and this is my life, I don't think we fit.

00:55:34.82
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:55:38.17
Bill
Thank you for telling me, go on your way, be good.

00:55:39.75
Dr. Sarah
ye Yep,

00:55:40.66
Bill
you know but then these other these other people like what, kind of the the, what are you looking for? you know I'm looking to this and that and if you're looking, I'm like, I don't, my my honest answer to people, I don't know.

00:55:51.74
Dr. Sarah
Got it.

00:55:51.70
Bill
I don't fuck i don't fucking know you. you know I literally, I met you four minutes ago.

00:55:53.79
Dr. Sarah
Right, right.

00:55:56.70
Mike
Mm.

00:55:56.87
Bill
We've had 17 messages and you want me to commit to the fact that I'm in this, that that my goal in this interaction right now with some fucking person on Bumble is marriage.

00:56:08.55
Bill
No, it's not. I will not say that.

00:56:10.15
Dr. Sarah
I am so with you. Plus, it's out of fear. i mean what It's so crazy because you you guys know this. like A lot of people, and I'm not saying it's necessarily just women, but this kind of addiction to security and this delusion that, oh, if you say you're going to marry me or you're going to be my partner or whatever, that somehow that fulfills some need for my childhood that I am now safe and secure.

00:56:37.82
Dr. Sarah
It's such a delusion. Do you know what I mean? So when people need that really quickly, it's like instead of having this process, like you just said, it takes time to get to know somebody.

00:56:40.46
Bill
Right.

00:56:51.45
Mike
Mhmm.

00:56:51.91
Dr. Sarah
I mean, it takes quite a while to see if you like them. do you Do you have things in common? Are you on the same page? Can you communicate? Are they sober?

00:57:02.28
Dr. Sarah
are they Do they respect your sobriety? Do you have the same sense of humor? I don't know. I mean, it's really important, and you deserve to have that connection.

00:57:10.73
Bill
I mean, all of, all of that stuff and, and I don't care if it's a, if it's a, an intimate relationship or, or a friendship, Mike and I walking down the street, not given the, you know, given the fact of, of how we got, you know, we ended up together at the same place at the Keating center.

00:57:28.18
Bill
There's no reason we've figured out, there's nothing no reason on the no reason on the planet that we ever would have met.

00:57:34.30
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:57:34.64
Bill
you know And we never would have had the opportunity to realize how well we click as human beings.

00:57:39.59
Mike
right

00:57:39.61
Bill
you know in it's And it's ridiculous. there there are We have variances of our of our thoughts and beliefs and feelings and whatever the case may be.

00:57:47.69
Dr. Sarah
Yes.

00:57:47.64
Bill
Slight variances. but We respect each other's opinions and that sort of thing.

00:57:51.02
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:57:52.64
Bill
And neither one of us go, you know, oh listen, you fucker, this and you, this, that.

00:57:56.26
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:57:57.12
Bill
but But we're also honest that I mean, I know I can trust him. There's there's that sort of thing.

00:58:00.53
Dr. Sarah
Yes.

00:58:01.60
Bill
But that's the point that didn't happen overnight. But the the whole the whole relationship thing, too.

00:58:03.85
Mike
No.

00:58:03.93
Dr. Sarah
No.

00:58:06.73
Bill
And again, one individual, you know, to begin with, you know, I i try to be upfront with people. I'm like, i I want to I am open to anything. That's what I tell people. I am open to anything.

00:58:16.64
Dr. Sarah
Got it.

00:58:17.81
Bill
But it has to happen. organically, it has to happen naturally, you know, I go into something, I want to meet somebody I want first thing I want to do, if if you think that based on this conversation back and forth that we connect, let's meet, let's have a cup of coffee.

00:58:21.89
Dr. Sarah
Yes.

00:58:32.79
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

00:58:32.80
Bill
And let's see if there's any connection in any chemistry. After that point, then we can decide because the rest of it is is fucking irrelevant.

00:58:37.82
Dr. Sarah
Yes.

00:58:40.59
Bill
If you can't stand to sit across the table from me. you know And then then at that point, again, this one, this this this back and forth I had with this one individual, which I do, I love her to death on on on a level.

00:58:45.57
Dr. Sarah
Good point, Bill.

00:58:51.88
Bill
Again, these levels of love. are just we We shouldn't have tried to be involved that way, and both of us know it.

00:58:54.96
Dr. Sarah
Oh, okay.

00:58:57.23
Bill
um but but it But at one point, you know she's like like, so you don't want to be in a relationship or whatever. I don't know what I'm doing. what I'm like, I've been honest with you from the start. I said, we we spend time, we have a great time.

00:59:05.92
Dr. Sarah
Right.

00:59:08.33
Bill
This little piece over here in this other room is really fucking good, but it's not just that. you know we can We can have conversations. We both like this a lot of the same things. We truly enjoy each other as human beings.

00:59:19.24
Bill
And I said, but I said, if you want me to lie to you, I can do that too.

00:59:22.78
Dr. Sarah
All right.

00:59:23.81
Bill
But I said, I'm not going to.

00:59:25.72
Dr. Sarah
But there was no attraction.

00:59:25.89
Bill
well

00:59:28.26
Bill
There, I mean, there was, I mean, again, is a, um, I, uh, I enjoyed her, um, every part of her, I'd love to run a level, but not to that level where I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her. It just, there wasn't that complete, whatever the deal was in, and I can't explain, I know what it feels like to be in love, but I don't know what the formula is to get to that point.

00:59:40.25
Dr. Sarah
Sorry.

00:59:47.44
Bill
I mean, I do, you know, but I know if it's not there and I know you can't force it, you know?

00:59:51.74
Dr. Sarah
Right, right, right.

00:59:53.80
Bill
So, but I mean, you know, when I was, before I got sober, I would have lied. I would have been just like, Oh yeah, that's okay. Let's yeah. Future plans. I'm right there with you because like Mike was saying before, you know, you you know, being around with women to to basically support you.

01:00:03.29
Dr. Sarah
ah

01:00:08.40
Bill
I'm sure, I'm sure you told him any fucking thing.

01:00:08.81
Mike
ah Yeah, you're goddamn right.

01:00:12.52
Bill
yeah I mean, I mean, why wouldn't we write, you know?

01:00:15.64
Mike
Right, pay my rent, but buy me food and I'll take care of the booze.

01:00:16.22
Dr. Sarah
I know, but right.

01:00:20.35
Dr. Sarah
yeah

01:00:20.73
Bill
Right.

01:00:21.49
Dr. Sarah
But you're right, because dishonesty, I mean, you know, that's going to just affect us in the long run. I mean, if you're dishonest, so right, it'll absolutely and it's a risk of your at your recovery if we stay dishonest long enough.

01:00:27.51
Bill
oh Yeah, it'll hurt. It'll hurt me more than anyone. Yeah.

01:00:34.93
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:00:35.70
Dr. Sarah
I mean, come on. Yeah, it's going to be a risk.

01:00:37.46
Mike
Yeah, we start compromising that stuff and then we start compromising everything.

01:00:40.20
Dr. Sarah
That's right.

01:00:41.76
Bill
Yeah, yeah, and you know people people don't think about that these you know these little ah Whether you know people call them little white lies or cut little corners are doing those sort of things that um Same thing we were talking about a few a few weeks ago You know the the things we do the readings and the processes and whatever it is Neither one of us and it's been you don't want to talk you want to talk about a good fear um you know both of us are scared the fucking death of of changing anything up in our

01:00:42.04
Dr. Sarah
That's right. Absolutely.

01:01:03.85
Dr. Sarah
right right right i got the formula right

01:01:04.50
Mike
so

01:01:05.14
Bill
in our program, you know, I mean, that's a healthy fear. I don't want to change to my prayers. I don't want to take a reading out. That's a micah's joking around. He's like, that's why I never added a fourth book. man he i Because I read four books in the morning, he reads three.

01:01:19.52
Mike
hu

01:01:19.54
Bill
He's like, that's why I didn't add a fourth book. i He goes, I don't want a fourth book. I can't take it out if I start reading it.

01:01:24.66
Mike
If I start once, yeah, that's right. I can't take anything away. I know that.

01:01:28.88
Bill
Yeah, so um so here, another thing that I wrote down, you know, that, you know, you talked about it, I think when I re-listened to your other episode, I don't know, a month or so ago, and I think trauma and triggers were brought up in there, and both Mike and I have opinions on them. I mean, they're they're pretty clear and pretty easy, but um I think you said something were along the lines of, you know, again, don't don't get me started on, or that's a whole other topic on,

01:01:54.99
Bill
And I think it might've been trauma, but I don't know, do you want our opinions on them first? Or do you want us to tell how you feel, pick one or the other or?

01:02:00.77
Dr. Sarah
Well, it's funny. There was some Facebook post the other day, and um I wish I had it. It was like something like not everyone that has a bad day has depression.

01:02:12.12
Mike
Mmhmm. Mmhmm.

01:02:14.21
Dr. Sarah
Not everybody that's had disappointment is traumatized. Not everybody, like it was this whole thing about how, and I don't know if this is what you're talking about, that everybody now has a mental illness.

01:02:25.23
Mike
Hmm.

01:02:28.99
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:02:29.88
Bill
Right.

01:02:30.19
Dr. Sarah
Basically. You know what I mean? And I mean, I feel both ways about it. On one hand, I mean, I have a 22 year old and he says his whole generation, I mean, everybody's really open now about if I have anxiety, if I have depression, if I have PTSD, great.

01:02:44.21
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:02:46.41
Dr. Sarah
But at the same time, like, you know Depression and anxiety disorders in PTSD are diagnoses. they're very They can be very serious as well as addiction, right?

01:02:57.85
Mike
Mm-hmm. Right.

01:03:00.38
Dr. Sarah
So it's like, I don't throw around the terms lightly. Having someone feel grief because their girlfriend broke up with them is not a clinical depression.

01:03:08.49
Mike
Mm-hmm. No.

01:03:11.69
Dr. Sarah
Now, if they are still you know if they're suicidal six months from now, yeah, then we can look at it. But I guess I think you know the word narcissism, the word trauma, the word like everybody just throws stuff around a lot.

01:03:25.25
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:03:27.14
Dr. Sarah
and um And I don't know. I mean, again, on one hand, people are finding a voice, but on another hand, it's like,

01:03:36.34
Mike
They're finding excuses.

01:03:37.70
Dr. Sarah
e responsible Yeah, You know, and I feel this way and you guys feel this way, that once I got sober and started doing step work, like these are the these are the words, I am responsible, period, at the end, right for what happens to me, for how I feel, all of it.

01:03:38.45
Bill
ah

01:03:45.62
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:03:52.06
Mike
Great.

01:03:54.91
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:03:55.70
Dr. Sarah
And it's not about blaming anybody else, no matter how horrible your life is. It's like someone was saying the other day, you know, like the immense piece.

01:04:06.99
Dr. Sarah
Like I make amends to people, even if they did horrible things to me or treated me poorly, that's not my part.

01:04:07.08
Mike
Mm hmm. Right.

01:04:14.27
Bill
Right. Right.

01:04:15.98
Dr. Sarah
My part is what I did to them.

01:04:17.96
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:04:18.26
Dr. Sarah
So maybe this is a whole different tangent.

01:04:21.12
Mike
Hmm.

01:04:21.31
Dr. Sarah
But the bottom line is, is I'm responsible. So what are your guys? What do you guys think? What were you talking about? And I i missed it.

01:04:28.85
Mike
No, that's, that's absolutely it. Yes.

01:04:31.09
Dr. Sarah
Oh, OK. All right.

01:04:32.31
Mike
No, that's, that's yeah perfect.

01:04:32.60
Bill
Yeah. Yeah.

01:04:32.86
Dr. Sarah
All right.

01:04:34.51
Mike
You're right. That's just it. You know, like I said, excuses people, Oh, I'm traumatized.

01:04:38.61
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:04:39.66
Mike
Oh, i'm um okay. Well, but they're not taking responsibility for themselves. Yeah. i've I've been traumatized in my life. Sure. Most people have, um, right.

01:04:49.42
Dr. Sarah
Absolutely.

01:04:50.64
Mike
But so what most people have just about everybody has, you know, 90%, there is that 10% that probably hasn't.

01:04:53.69
Dr. Sarah
Right. Right.

01:04:57.53
Dr. Sarah
Well, especially if you have an addiction issue.

01:04:57.68
Mike
and and

01:05:00.45
Dr. Sarah
I mean, you know, I'm sure shit has happened.

01:05:00.46
Mike
right yeah well and Yeah, but I also can't use that as an excuse for my addiction.

01:05:07.19
Dr. Sarah
No, it's not an excuse.

01:05:08.62
Mike
ca see Because an addict because I fucking want to feel good all the time.

01:05:08.82
Dr. Sarah
It's just information. Right. Yes.

01:05:13.99
Mike
That's that's a selfish thing.

01:05:14.17
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:05:15.43
Mike
you know Bill Wilson got that one dead right.

01:05:16.26
Bill
Yeah,

01:05:18.33
Mike
The root of our troubles is selfishness and self-centeredness.

01:05:22.80
Dr. Sarah
Yeah.

01:05:24.98
Mike
I have to take responsibility for everything. I have to take responsibility for well... my my feelings, being traumatized. I have to be responsible for my, i after okay, so then how do I deal with it?

01:05:33.13
Dr. Sarah
Yes.

01:05:38.29
Mike
I can sit there and dwell and sit in it and feel like shit, or I can get up out of the shit and make my life better.

01:05:38.65
Dr. Sarah
Yes.

01:05:42.55
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

01:05:46.01
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:05:46.37
Mike
despite the fact, you know we all we talk about that's you know the three pillars of our sobriety is making our bed in the morning and eating pizza on Friday night in spite.

01:05:46.91
Dr. Sarah
Yes. Yes.

01:05:56.08
Bill
yeah Yeah.

01:05:58.48
Mike
Those are the three pillars of our sobriety. um What do you mean I can't stay sober? Fuck you.

01:06:05.54
Dr. Sarah
Yeah, right.

01:06:05.62
Mike
ah

01:06:05.73
Bill
Yeah.

01:06:06.56
Dr. Sarah
Yeah.

01:06:06.65
Bill
And that, that is, that, that is 100% how that that our spite thing started that we got sick and we're driving to a meeting cause Mike and I used to drive to meetings together. We're at the three quarter house and whatever it was.

01:06:16.22
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:06:17.44
Bill
ah And I don't know which one of us brought it up, but I'm like, but I'm like, you know what? I said these fucking statistics that I'm hearing 98% here at 20% over here, you know, we'd be in a room and they're like, take a look around you, take a look to your left, take a look to your right.

01:06:31.43
Bill
you know two of these people will not stay sober. And i would it was getting it was pissing me off. And I said, do you know what? I said, I'm staying sober just to piss these motherfuckers off.

01:06:39.50
Mike
Mm hmm. That's right.

01:06:41.32
Bill
I'm like um like, these statistics, I said, fuck them and fuck you.

01:06:44.39
Dr. Sarah
Fuck them.

01:06:45.31
Bill
And we were maybe what, a year and a half, a year or so, year sober, maybe?

01:06:45.67
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:06:48.16
Mike
About a year, yeah, barely.

01:06:49.03
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:06:49.53
Bill
Yeah, we were like in a year and then, and then Mike's like, Mike's sitting in the pastor seat and he's like, he's like, yeah, forget about helping ourselves and our family and not hurting other people.

01:06:50.03
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:06:58.72
Bill
We're just doing it to fucking piss people off. Just out of, just out of spite and swear to Christ that we live by that and we use that.

01:07:04.97
Dr. Sarah
Oh my God, that kills me.

01:07:06.84
Bill
We it's a joke, but it's really not, you know?

01:07:07.31
Mike
Yeah.

01:07:08.20
Dr. Sarah
No, but I get it.

01:07:08.84
Mike
Yeah.

01:07:09.75
Dr. Sarah
Yeah.

01:07:09.87
Mike
Yeah.

01:07:09.94
Bill
Yeah.

01:07:10.58
Dr. Sarah
apps like Absolutely.

01:07:11.34
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:07:11.79
Bill
But with the real, real quick with the trauma thing.

01:07:11.94
Dr. Sarah
Absolutely.

01:07:13.71
Bill
So the, the other part of it, like Mike said, 100%, we agree with you. Everything that you said in the thing that that bothers me the most that we've been on a couple of, we've been guests on a couple of podcasts and no offense to any of the podcasts out there.

01:07:22.88
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

01:07:25.71
Bill
We're not these people to ask these questions, but I mean, everyone's trying to say, okay, so you're an alcoholic or you're a drug addict.

01:07:27.73
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:07:32.53
Bill
like What happened to you? Okay, so what what happened to you when you were a child?

01:07:34.51
Mike
Hey.

01:07:37.07
Bill
What led you to, what are the deep down things? Have you, people will say, you know have you have you really dug in or you know done that deep dive and figure out what made you start drinking?

01:07:45.26
Dr. Sarah
Wow.

01:07:47.11
Bill
you know And I'm like, both of us are in the same opinion. We're like, okay, so here's the thing. Yeah, I had some things. I think Mike and I have had conversations. He's brought up a few of them on here. I think he said a few worse things happened to him than I did.

01:08:00.09
Bill
I'll give, I mean, but but it doesn't fucking matter.

01:08:00.29
Mike
Well, that doesn't matter.

01:08:03.17
Dr. Sarah
It does, you can't compare pain.

01:08:03.19
Bill
he no it's no exactly exactly you know so again from the event side of it a couple more points over there to Mike but that has nothing to do with the fact that he and I ended up on the same goddamn doorstep you know and he lived this life over here with his few more points of this and this Hollywood life and all this shit and that I'm over here doing my thing and whatever

01:08:04.95
Dr. Sarah
I always say that, yeah.

01:08:17.10
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:08:25.60
Bill
And then we end up at the same doorstep. Now, the thing of it is, is that both of us are are of the opinion that we, whether we were born this way or whatever, we are who we are. And like Mike said, we both drank not to to drown the trauma, we drank because we liked the effect.

01:08:41.14
Bill
We liked the feeling.

01:08:41.42
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:08:42.40
Bill
It's a selfish, it's a self-centered part of it. And it's it's really, it's baffling to me that some people are still, but they still would say, but yeah, but, but what else?

01:08:53.47
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:08:53.42
Bill
Why does there have to be anything else?

01:08:55.01
Mike
Mm.

01:08:55.10
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:08:55.88
Bill
I don't need to.

01:08:55.96
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:08:57.06
Bill
The thing of it is, is I've worked through all these fucking people. And, you know, I mean, my mom and I for years, you know, who turned out to be our mom, Mike and ours mom, Mike and I's mom, you know, for years, we as a child, there was some shit that I didn't like the way that how she acted or whatever.

01:09:03.51
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:09:07.13
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

01:09:14.26
Bill
We had this terrible time for about five years and my teens and whatever.

01:09:15.04
Dr. Sarah
Got it.

01:09:18.18
Bill
you know um the these difficult times, okay? But then I fucking gave it right back to her. you know We had this volatile relationship and I know why and it's not ah part of it I know why of and all these different things. ah None of that matters. I turned out to be um and drank myself you know through marriages and all this different shit. And then at the end of it, I had the opportunity to go back to your point before Dr. Dr. Sarah and I made my amends with her.

01:09:46.34
Dr. Sarah
Yeah.

01:09:46.38
Bill
Probably, I'm sure there were some things that she apologized or acknowledged, but there's a ton of shit that she never brought up again. you know but But here's the other thing, too, is that I know what happened to her when she was a kid.

01:09:53.02
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:09:58.72
Bill
I know what happened to my uncles.

01:10:00.15
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

01:10:00.23
Bill
I know how my grandpa was, and I know that my grandma never did anything to stick up for the kids. I know how my grandpa was treated. you know So this this generational thing, granted, all these things happen and people grow out of it.

01:10:07.94
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:10:12.74
Bill
It has to do with how do you treat your kids? How do you treat your spouses? How do you treat your you know your siblings?

01:10:16.39
Mike
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

01:10:17.47
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:10:18.53
Bill
um How do you look at the world? Are you still a fucking racist in this day and time?

01:10:23.16
Dr. Sarah
ah Right.

01:10:23.63
Bill
You know you know what I mean? I mean, all these things, you go back 60 years.

01:10:25.57
Dr. Sarah
oh

01:10:27.59
Bill
I'm not giving people excuses, but you know some shit was different back 60, 70 years ago. But what about now? you know

01:10:35.16
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:10:35.52
Bill
So our whole point, well, it's just our whole point is that i don't I don't want to be a victim.

01:10:36.04
Dr. Sarah
You have said so many good things. Go ahead.

01:10:41.23
Bill
I don't want to play a victim. I need to straighten my shit out, take care of my shit, treat people the way that I want to be treated, um you know, clean up my side of the street, regardless of what other people do.

01:10:49.69
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:10:51.89
Bill
And you know what? I got really good people in and around me in my life. I don't have, whatever trauma happened, it doesn't fucking matter.

01:10:55.98
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:10:59.84
Mike
Right. I mean, my, my whole point and, and one of the gifts of the program is, is it happening right now? Then shut the fuck up.

01:11:06.31
Bill
ah yeah Right. ah

01:11:09.27
Dr. Sarah
All right, so this is what I have to say about all that, and that was great. Everything you guys said is, this is the thing. Should happen to everybody, right?

01:11:19.25
Bill
Right.

01:11:19.81
Dr. Sarah
So like you're saying, did you have horrible stuff happen? Sure. Just like a lot of people. And are there degrees? Sure. But at the same time, like I say, everybody's pain is different.

01:11:33.22
Dr. Sarah
My only thing is, I think it's like the both and. It's not either or. It's like, yes, you can have these horrible things happen. And you can take responsibility and you don't have it to be a victim to it, right?

01:11:47.07
Bill
Right, right.

01:11:47.41
Dr. Sarah
It's both. It's being able to acknowledge, you know, ah give space to what's happened and to take responsibility for it. And and I think what you're talking about is where there has to be some huge reason or explanation.

01:12:04.26
Dr. Sarah
Jeez, if I had this history, then that's why I drank. when If you're in the program long enough, there are people that you know said, nothing happened to me. my parents you know I had a great childhood or whatever.

01:12:14.59
Mike
Right. hu

01:12:16.46
Dr. Sarah
I mean, you've had those people and people that have had trauma like Finn on the podcast.

01:12:18.30
Mike
Sure.

01:12:22.28
Dr. Sarah
I mean, my God, I don't think I've heard a worse story than you know Foster Holmes and ah sexual abuse and you know molested by his therapist.

01:12:28.74
Mike
Right.

01:12:31.14
Dr. Sarah
i mean you know It was endless. so i mean There's people like that and there's other people that everybody's different.

01:12:38.62
Mike
right

01:12:38.79
Dr. Sarah
and and you know He's one of the best examples. that i'd love That's why I love to do the show with him because he is not a victim. Again, he knows that all this horrible stuff happened and we are responsible.

01:12:53.63
Dr. Sarah
so I get it. When you're talking about the podcast though, you know I remember literally, I think it was the first one I ever did. I sent the woman the book and I i was kind of dressed really professionally and I thought, you know she's going to have read every bit of it and ask me specific questions.

01:13:12.16
Dr. Sarah
And really what she wanted was the down and dirty, entertaining stories of addiction.

01:13:19.68
Mike
oh

01:13:20.80
Dr. Sarah
You know what I mean?

01:13:21.64
Mike
Yeah.

01:13:21.85
Dr. Sarah
And it was so interesting to me because I felt like, I don't want it.

01:13:21.81
Mike
Oh yeah.

01:13:26.74
Dr. Sarah
like I'm so much about the solution, like you guys.

01:13:29.61
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:13:30.87
Bill
Right.

01:13:30.97
Dr. Sarah
like I'm very solution focused. I don't want to spread the mess. I want to spread the message, you know all that stuff.

01:13:36.60
Mike
Yep.

01:13:37.83
Dr. Sarah
and And again, not that there's not a place and a time to tell some stories for people to identify. And maybe that's why she was asking me.

01:13:44.81
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:13:47.03
Dr. Sarah
But on some level, I kept feeling like, Oh, like the worse it is, the more she'll like it.

01:13:52.99
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:13:54.21
Dr. Sarah
You know what I mean?

01:13:55.12
Mike
Oh, yeah.

01:13:55.26
Dr. Sarah
So there was this weird kind of feeling like, oh, that's what this podcast is about.

01:14:02.17
Mike
Mm-hmm, right.

01:14:02.29
Dr. Sarah
You know what I mean? And I didn't know anything. So um it's just interesting. You're right. I think you you know you learn a lot about kind of people's agendas, what they're interested in.

01:14:16.27
Dr. Sarah
Are they sincere? Do they really want to get to know you and connect? Or is it more about how they want to present?

01:14:22.35
Mike
Mm-hmm.

01:14:23.58
Dr. Sarah
I don't know. There's a lot to it.

01:14:25.41
Bill
Right.

01:14:25.78
Dr. Sarah
So I agree with you guys.

01:14:26.24
Bill
Well, and and with the and with the other podcast too, and there' and there's nothing wrong with it, there's, and I listened to the, quite a few, not recently, but there's a couple that I listened to where, you know, people get on there and they tell their full stories and it's very structured.

01:14:39.20
Dr. Sarah
Of course. Yep.

01:14:40.46
Bill
And um the the guy that, there's one guy that, it'll come to me. But it's ah it's a really good podcast. His name is Brad. He's out of Canada. he's He does very well and does a great podcast.

01:14:49.65
Dr. Sarah
Oh yeah.

01:14:50.94
Bill
um Sober Motivation Podcast.

01:14:51.03
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

01:14:52.90
Bill
If anyone hasn't listened to it, if you want to hear good sober stories, great podcast.

01:14:53.12
Dr. Sarah
Yes.

01:14:56.34
Dr. Sarah
ye Yep.

01:14:57.59
Bill
But I mean, that podcast is set up for a really long drunk along, usually, and then you know a kind of a little bit sometimes people will split it up nicely you know to get more of the solution but i think that um we've had some people on here that don't don't really know what our deal is and when when mike does his line you know we just started we started it relatively early going okay fuck this people are not gonna spend an entire hour telling a strong stories so mike always says you know it's like mike tell him how we do things that he goes through his thing and i think some people are thrown off there like

01:15:23.68
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:15:30.74
Bill
I can't tell my story. you know Just give us a background. Give us a little bit of why you're here.

01:15:34.30
Mike
Right.

01:15:34.48
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:15:35.44
Bill
you know the

01:15:35.55
Mike
Little bit, but yeah, but I mean, what I always say is, you know, we know how to get fucked up and we know how to fuck up our lives.

01:15:36.03
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:15:41.20
Mike
We know how to do that. We want to know about the solution.

01:15:42.92
Dr. Sarah
Yes. Yes.

01:15:44.45
Bill
Yeah.

01:15:45.34
Dr. Sarah
Yes.

01:15:45.39
Bill
And it's just, it's so much better. Now I get it. Where if we had somebody on here that, and I don't say only cause I want to take away from time is time, but we had somebody on here that was, you know, a year sober or something like that, which we did Carly, I think when she was on here and she was nine or 10 months or something like that.

01:15:58.93
Mike
yeah right

01:16:02.09
Mike
ah

01:16:02.33
Bill
But she had, she had a lot going on outside of just not, not just being sober. She was doing some shit. So it was a lot of conversation that we had with her. But, um, you know, I suppose that then there, ah same thing you know that first lead, it's all about, what do you got to talk about?

01:16:14.80
Bill
you know You've only been sober for a year and I say only, but you know but as you get people that are you know you know three to five to 10, what have you been doing?

01:16:20.34
Mike
Yeah,

01:16:23.09
Bill
you know How do you stay this way? cause that's And that's kind of the the whole point of the sober curator, everything that Elise always talks about.

01:16:25.97
Mike
right.

01:16:29.14
Dr. Sarah
Right. It's about staying sober, right?

01:16:30.20
Bill
And that's what that... Yeah, that's what that website is supposed to be about and what that podcast is going to be about.

01:16:34.54
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:16:35.54
Bill
So um real quick, and in I want before we, you know, I don't want to say run out of time because we could talk as well as long as we want, but.

01:16:41.03
Dr. Sarah
I know. I get a gone off on 18 tangents right then, but go ahead.

01:16:43.89
Mike
a

01:16:43.91
Bill
No, no, no, it's okay, but what what I wanna do is I wanna give you an opportunity, um talk about your book, exactly what the what the name is. Two things I wanna tell you is that in the episode description that people are listening to right now, there is a link to your website.

01:16:59.57
Bill
I know that links to, that's a link to everything that Dr.

01:17:00.06
Dr. Sarah
Oh, beautiful, yep. You're the best.

01:17:02.94
Bill
Dr. Sarah does, okay? um But please explain to people because that's the other thing. We we love to shoot the shit with you, but talk about the that in the podcast and that.

01:17:10.59
Dr. Sarah
Oh my God, I could talk with you guys for hours. I know. Um, so yeah, if you're interested in kind of learning about me or learning more about codependency and what I talk about, definitely go to the website, drsarembeshow.com. And we also, my buddy, Finn and I, he's an attorney. He's been sober like eight years. He's transgender.

01:17:33.30
Dr. Sarah
And he's hilarious. And it's so funny when you talk about you and Mike and and why you guys got together to do the podcast and it's kind of more about you than anyone else because I often say to Finn, I'm like, look, I think we're hilarious and I have so much fun doing it.

01:17:39.84
Mike
Uh-huh.

01:17:48.71
Dr. Sarah
Like I don't even care if people like watch it because we are having a ball. And I mean, of course I want to help people like you guys do.

01:17:54.37
Bill
Right.

01:17:58.27
Dr. Sarah
But really, I want to have fun in sobriety. I want to live my life in sobriety. And on the so we do a YouTube channel called Leaving Crazy Town. And basically, we kind of each week talk about a different topic of codependency, whether it's finding your voice or setting boundaries or um obsessional thinking or whatever it is. And then we give some tools and tips and we try to have fun.

01:18:25.17
Dr. Sarah
So um that's the YouTube channel. And some of those episodes now have become a podcast, the Leaving Crazy Town podcast. So um we're going to start putting out new episodes in another month or so. so that's And the Sober Curator, I write articles like Bill does for the Sober Curator.

01:18:45.15
Dr. Sarah
And that's a lot of fun also. It's a great community. And by the way, Bill, we should say that um go to the Sober Curator website because right now they're giving away a huge prize of 50 quit lit books and a bunch of other things if you enter to win.

01:19:08.18
Dr. Sarah
So that's something we should promote. I was just thinking about that. I just got that email today.

01:19:11.62
Bill
yeah Yep, and it's thesobercurator.com, and you'll see it on you'll see it on there, or you can click through through their Instagram page under the same title.

01:19:16.95
Dr. Sarah
yep.

01:19:21.26
Bill
um But yeah, it's 50 recovery books, like um Mike Travis's book is in there, Dr. Dr. Sarah's book is in there.

01:19:26.63
Mike
Cool.

01:19:27.84
Bill
I didn't look through all of them, but it's it's everything, just about everything you can think of.

01:19:31.46
Dr. Sarah
yeah it is everything yep.

01:19:33.16
Bill
And yeah, it's 50 of the books, and then, yeah, might might be some other things in there, but I don't remember how long the it's going for, but definitely, um yeah, by all means, go on there. yeah Everyone that's listening, we've we've tried to you know kind of steer people to that direction anyhow.

01:19:46.19
Bill
It's whether you're, even if you're if you're brand new or you've been sober for 25 or 40 years as some of us on this podcast have been, there is something on there.

01:19:46.80
Dr. Sarah
Great.

01:19:56.24
Bill
It's got a whole bunch of of wonderful stuff. And all three of us are part of, there's gonna be a podcast coming out that all three of us are gonna be involved in um through the Sober Curator. We all just did our intros.

01:20:07.10
Bill
We did some things with that, some promos. You know, so it's going to be a lot of fun.

01:20:09.56
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

01:20:10.72
Bill
and It's another way, and I guess guys correct me if I'm wrong, it's another way that we can kind of get back to this whole thing, right?

01:20:16.95
Dr. Sarah
Absolutely.

01:20:16.97
Mike
Absolutely.

01:20:18.21
Dr. Sarah
Absolutely.

01:20:18.39
Mike
Yep

01:20:18.49
Dr. Sarah
Help another addict. You got it. You got it.

01:20:20.78
Bill
And then, so you're, um and I was, I was so happy to hear that, um, that your, your podcast that, uh, cause obviously at least not obviously, but I think she helped you flip that into a podcast, right?

01:20:31.60
Dr. Sarah
Yes, she did. Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm lazy, basically. and

01:20:35.99
Mike
hey Welcome to the club.

01:20:39.99
Dr. Sarah
I mean, yeah, if it's not simple, I don't want to do it.

01:20:40.08
Bill
But.

01:20:43.41
Dr. Sarah
So she had the idea. And we've gotten a lot of good feedback. I mean, a lot of people like you guys listen in their cars or listen.

01:20:49.59
Bill
Right.

01:20:50.84
Dr. Sarah
And you can't, well, you shouldn't watch YouTube when you're driving. Not that people don't.

01:20:54.30
Mike
No.

01:20:55.15
Dr. Sarah
but So it's just more easily accessible. so um And they're just little clips.

01:20:59.34
Bill
Right.

01:21:01.13
Dr. Sarah
Unlike you guys, they're just like 10 to 15 minutes little clips.

01:21:04.63
Bill
Unlike you guys.

01:21:05.16
Dr. Sarah
Yeah.

01:21:05.76
Mike
Hehehehe.

01:21:06.29
Dr. Sarah
I mean, unlike most podcasts or like you know a good hour or whatever, yeah, or more.

01:21:07.66
Bill
No, I know.

01:21:08.60
Mike
Right.

01:21:10.49
Bill
Well, and I forget where I was, and it might've been, again, a month or so ago, I think, i actually, I think when I was driving up to Wisconsin, so back in, I don't know, August or whatever it was, July or August, um i I just put, I did, I went to the beginning and started listening to it, and it is, you know, the the the difference between you know what we're doing, you know, an hour and a half or whatever, and yeah, people, if you're listening to this and you get tired of it, you could pause it and listen later. I mean, everyone's got that ability, but,

01:21:35.79
Bill
the The cool part about you know the the leaving crazy town in a podcast forum like that is literally, there are these little 15 minute clips. I listened to, I probably listened to 10 of them.

01:21:46.76
Bill
you know And because I had, I don't know, a two, three hour drive, whatever it was.

01:21:47.55
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:21:50.96
Bill
And I mean, they're just playing over and over and it's the, it's you know it's it's you but you guys and all of them talking about these, it's these little nuggets of sober information or sobriety information or codependency information.

01:22:01.93
Dr. Sarah
Yeah.

01:22:01.96
Bill
And like I said, I think that's when you, I heard that line about everyone has some sort of codependency stuff, but um yeah, it was, it's great. And to me, I don't, I just, I don't watch things on YouTube.

01:22:13.84
Bill
We have a YouTube channel, everything gets posted automatically, all our episodes do, but there's no video to it.

01:22:17.30
Dr. Sarah
Oh, got it. Okay.

01:22:20.09
Bill
um I've heard that, I mean, if we if we truly wanted to spend the time to grow, we could do something in and YouTube, I think is the best way to,

01:22:20.19
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:22:28.40
Bill
to grow as ah as a podcast or as a media source. um But there's ah there's a lot of work, like you said.

01:22:35.46
Dr. Sarah
Right.

01:22:36.08
Bill
It's not easy, whatever.

01:22:37.06
Dr. Sarah
I'm keeping it simple.

01:22:37.01
Bill
and we're We're just not at a the point where we want to push that sort of thing.

01:22:38.30
Dr. Sarah
Yeah, exactly.

01:22:40.44
Bill
What we're doing now is perfectly fine. But um but yeah, I mean, literally, the ah you can click through whether it doesn't matter whether you're on Spotify, Apple, I don't know, some of these ones you're not able to click through, but you'll see the website link um you know, on on this episode description, it's in there and just look it up.

01:22:56.01
Bill
You'll be able to find Dr. Dr. Sarah's website and get to everything that she's talking about. But that's what I was trying to figure out the easy.

01:23:00.49
Dr. Sarah
Thank you so much.

01:23:01.72
Bill
No, it's fine. And i know i I know I did it last time and I don't, we never know if any of this shit helps, you know?

01:23:07.33
Dr. Sarah
I know.

01:23:07.63
Bill
But but the thing of it is, is worst case scenario, people click through, who knows? You know, if it, and somebody had said that to us not too long ago, you know, that, I mean, we don't know who's list.

01:23:12.40
Dr. Sarah
Yep.

01:23:17.85
Bill
We know it helps people, you know, what we do every once in a while, which is fine. Again, it's great. But even if it's like one person every once in a while, it's, it's cool, you know, that's what, what more can he ask for, right?

01:23:24.59
Dr. Sarah
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Giving it back.

01:23:31.09
Bill
So, um I mean, we're obviously running up a little, well, probably a little bit towards the end here.

01:23:31.40
Dr. Sarah
You got it.

01:23:35.81
Bill
So anything else, Dr. Dr. Sarah, that you want to, um I don't know, touch on or tell people, like wrap up in the next, you know, five or eight minutes or whatever?

01:23:44.74
Dr. Sarah
Yeah. I mean, I would just say, listen, a lot of times people, I'll, I'll say, I wrote a book on codependence and they'll say, Oh, I'm not codependent. And this happened to me recently at my dentist's office.

01:23:57.58
Dr. Sarah
So there's like five women in the main office there. And so I brought in a couple of copies of the book, and they all said they weren't codependent. And I asked them a few questions. And the next thing you know, everybody's codependent.

01:24:09.76
Mike
yeah

01:24:10.47
Dr. Sarah
So I mean, this is the thing.

01:24:10.62
Bill
hey Right?

01:24:13.45
Dr. Sarah
it's like It's this word is thrown around like nobody even knows what it means anymore. But basically, it's really healing from codependency is really about coming home to who you really are.

01:24:26.73
Mike
Mm hmm.

01:24:29.43
Dr. Sarah
In fact, the name of the group was called Coming Home to Yourself. That was the name of the codependency group I did online for several years. And that even sounds kind of esoteric.

01:24:40.64
Dr. Sarah
But I want you to really think about When you're with other people, do you feel like you can be your authentic self? Or do you feel like you need to kind of adapt or acquiesce or say certain things because you're concerned with what they are thinking or feeling?

01:25:04.16
Dr. Sarah
So I just want you your audience to think about that. You know do you you might be like, Mike, this is like, fuck them. you know I'm going to just be who I am.

01:25:11.28
Mike
Mmm.

01:25:12.97
Dr. Sarah
you know And that may be true. you know You may be able to just be who you are, or you may have some defenses operating that kind of keep you from being your true self.

01:25:26.03
Dr. Sarah
And the thing with that too is, and I say this also, is that And it's just the same with addiction. When do you heal from addiction and you heal from codependency, you have a clearer connection to yourself. You have a clearer connection to others and a clearer connection to higher power. So that's really what it's about. It's about getting rid of all that stuff that's blocking you from getting to know who you are, from getting to know others in a true sense,

01:25:58.32
Dr. Sarah
and getting to have a spiritual life. So that's really the last thing I'll say is that really take a look, listen to a couple of episodes, get a copy of the book. whatever will kind of get you curious.

01:26:11.60
Dr. Sarah
And then, you know, there are solutions and everybody wants to be, I say this in the book, you know, every addict wants to be 72 and sunny, right? I mean, that's what I spent my whole life trying to do.

01:26:21.89
Mike
yeah

01:26:23.58
Dr. Sarah
Okay, I'm just gonna have this many drinks, this few lines. Oh, now I need to smoke a joint. Oh, now I need to take a Valium. Now I need to do another line of coke. Like I'm always trying to get to this certain spot.

01:26:35.05
Mike
Exactly.

01:26:36.49
Dr. Sarah
Right?

01:26:37.22
Mike
This is

01:26:37.44
Dr. Sarah
And so this is about, you know, once you take those substances out, oftentimes we don't know who we are. And oftentimes we are just reacting to the external world, but becoming sober from substances and healing from codependency is really about being comfortable in your own skin and being able to identify what you need and want and have healthy relationships.

01:27:01.66
Mike
Mm hmm. Yeah.

01:27:03.95
Dr. Sarah
So yeah,

01:27:05.42
Bill
Well, and just just real quick, based on what you said, it actually, when you were talking about being in a room around people, you know, when you feel like if you can't say whatever, I literally started to feel sick to my stomach when you, when you just this uncomfortable feeling, cause I, you know, here's the thing that thankfully, I mean, I work remote now and in this and that, then I don't have to go to these work functions, but that's one area or sometimes just, just being involved or being invited to something where you just don't know everyone and you're not sure. And then you're listening to some of these fucking blowhards and you're like,

01:27:34.12
Bill
Oh my God, I don't want to be around this, but that just reminded me to this. The, and I never thought about this before that I, this is one thing I think about from a dating standpoint is, Hey, what if I meet this really cool chick?

01:27:45.18
Bill
She wants to hang out. She's cool, but then I hate her fucking friends. Then I'm like, then there's, I'm like, Oh, I'm not going to hang around these fucking people now.

01:27:54.38
Dr. Sarah
Oh my God, ah we could do a whole other episode by 22-year-old, his girlfriend just broke up with him, his first love of two years.

01:27:57.14
Bill
I know, I know.

01:28:01.99
Bill
Yeah.

01:28:03.58
Dr. Sarah
And it was a huge issue because she was at college and he'd go visit her and he'd come home and he'd go, oh my God, I can't stand those people.

01:28:05.87
Bill
right?

01:28:13.74
Dr. Sarah
So I mean, it is an issue.

01:28:15.98
Bill
Yeah.

01:28:16.73
Dr. Sarah
If you have someone, that would be a whole other talk, but yeah, it is, it's tough.

01:28:21.65
Bill
Well, you know what, um I think this ah in mic, I'm gonna speak for you here. Okay. um Dr. Dr. Sarah, you can come back whenever the fuck you want.

01:28:29.56
Mike
Absolutely.

01:28:29.79
Bill
but Because I think

01:28:31.03
Dr. Sarah
I'm ready to do deeper dives with you guys.

01:28:34.02
Bill
No, I know, and that's that's the fun part.

01:28:34.06
Mike
yeah

01:28:35.82
Bill
So last last time we talked a lot about kind of on the outskirts of everything. And in this this time was, ah i we I think we only talked about three topics, I think.

01:28:44.77
Mike
say Or one.

01:28:44.90
Bill
if i i didn't I didn't write anything down, did yeah, or one, but i but the the description's gonna be very vague on purpose, because I knew when we have somebody like you on, I don't really make a lot of notes about what we talked about, because there's I know it's gonna go into a lot of different directions, but my point is is that um i don't think there I think that the three of us could have endless conversations that I think would be not only fun and engaging for us, but I think that would would be helpful to other people.

01:29:07.67
Dr. Sarah
endless.

01:29:12.75
Bill
So, um shit, I don't know.

01:29:13.09
Dr. Sarah
Absolutely. Absolutely.

01:29:14.94
Bill
I mean, we don't have to plan anything right now, but just let's let's put it this way. you are You are welcome back any fucking time.

01:29:20.47
Dr. Sarah
Oh, you guys are so awesome. I love talking to you. I feel like you're my people and we always relate. Yeah.

01:29:26.50
Bill
Yeah, it's a lot of fun.

01:29:26.65
Dr. Sarah
So I am so happy.

01:29:27.17
Mike
Yeah.

01:29:28.38
Dr. Sarah
Thank you so much for having me on the show again.

01:29:30.93
Mike
Mm.

01:29:30.92
Bill
No, you're very welcome.

01:29:31.06
Dr. Sarah
It's been great.

01:29:32.32
Bill
But now it's it's Mike's turn. He's going to do a couple of things. And then remember, Dr.

01:29:35.96
Dr. Sarah
Okay.

01:29:36.84
Bill
Dr. Sarah, do not hang up after we're done, OK?

01:29:38.63
Dr. Sarah
I will not hang up.

01:29:39.52
Mike
yeah All right, well, thank you everyone for listening to another episode of Sober Not Mature. Thank you Dr. Dr. Sarah for hanging out with us tonight. And as always be kind to each other, be good to each other, go out and do something nice for somebody else this week and don't tell anybody that you did it.

01:29:58.41
Mike
now from the bottom of my heart to the depths of my soul from the beginning of time to the ends of the earth always and eternally fuck you and now it is time for you to fuck off then keep fucking off keep fucking off till you get to a gate with a sign on it saying you cannot fuck off past here climb over that gate dream the impossible dream and keep fucking off forever

01:30:26.19
Dr. Sarah
Oh my god.

01:30:26.99
Bill
our Our really good friend Gee from Colorado um gave Mike that that one about the fuck you part. So yeah, he's, that that came into another part of the conversation. Cause I'm like, I'm like, oh, I'm surprised you read that two weeks that he wrote. He's like, well, fuck he goes, I can't stop now.

01:30:40.97
Mike
a I can't take anything away.

01:30:41.78
Bill
yeah

01:30:44.13
Mike
We've discussed this over and over again Absolutely Love you Bye

01:30:46.19
Bill
yeah Yeah, he added another part to our closing, and now he's stuck with it.

01:30:49.67
Dr. Sarah
Oh my god.

01:30:50.41
Bill
So ah I don't know. it's ah I can't say anything more, but my god, Dr. Dr. Sarah, we had ah we had a great time.

01:30:56.24
Dr. Sarah
I love you guys. You're doing great stuff and we will stay in touch.

01:31:00.94
Bill
We will. All right, love you guys. And I know that we will all talk soon, right?

01:31:02.80
Dr. Sarah
All right. Okay. All right. Talk soon. Okay.

01:31:06.74
Bill
All right, bye.

01:31:06.90
Dr. Sarah
Bye. Bye.