SoberNotMature - Episode 89 (Memories, Meditation and Mammaries)

Bill (00:03.101)
All right, everyone. Welcome once again to another episode of Sober, Not Mature. And I was gonna say the last week that you guys got to deal with just us, but next week we have our buddy Michael on, and then it's us as far as I know for that distant future. So yeah, in other words, so you just don't get the deal with us for one week next week because yeah, our good buddy Mike's on. Crazy Megan's husband, so that's, yeah, I mean, obviously it...

Mike (00:14.85)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (00:19.35)
Right?

Mike (00:25.666)
Yeah. Uh-huh.

Bill (00:32.009)
He's been around us. I mean, since the summer that we got sober, we met him, what, three months sober, something like that, three, four. Yeah. Three months.

Mike (00:35.562)
Right. That's something like that. I think, yeah, he came in, uh, what July.

Bill (00:41.237)
Yeah, I would I think so. I think so. But yeah, I mean, he's

Mike (00:42.954)
Yeah. So, you know, yeah, I mean, yeah, we were like maybe two and a half months over something like that and, uh, yeah.

Bill (00:50.189)
Yep. So we've all been, we've been friends for just a long time. Yeah.

Mike (00:53.706)
Right. And he lived in three quarter house with us and blah, blah. So yeah, Michael's been around forever.

Bill (01:00.481)
Yeah, we've got almost just as much history with him as you and I have. So he's one of the good ones. I mean, all our friends are good ones, but one of the ones that just good friends that's been there literally from the start. So, but yeah, and then, I mean, we got a lot of stuff to talk about tonight. First of the month, so we got the step to talk about. We got your reading. Obviously, we can talk a little bit about mom. It's been a year since.

Mike (01:05.207)
Right.

Mike (01:09.526)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (01:19.17)
Yeah.

Mike (01:27.223)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:27.929)
since she passed away and, you know, I mean, I've got some thoughts, I'm sure, you know, obviously both of us do. And then I do want to, I'm sure you heard that Matthew Perry died this week or less. Okay, so I have no desire to talk about friends or anything like that, but he was one of us and I just have, I have some things that kind of crossed my mind this week, but, and it's, okay, well good, you know, and I was, first of all, I can take a guess that you're probably not a friends fan.

Mike (01:38.366)
I did. Yep.

Mike (01:43.518)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (01:48.123)
Eh, I got a couple thoughts too.

Hehehe

Mike (01:58.266)
You know, I mean, I was actually, you know, since it's been in the news and the social conscience and all that shit this past week or so, you know, I mean, I've seen episodes of the show at the height of its popularity. I was actually, it was the first time I tried to get sober. So my stupid roommate, we had to watch Friends on whatever night was on. So yeah.

Bill (02:21.649)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Mike (02:26.366)
Right. So yes, I've seen it. It was what it was. You know, it was a dumb sitcom.

Bill (02:32.717)
Yeah, exactly. A dumb sitcom that hit at the right time, just like a Seinfeld, just like some of these other ones. And, you know, it made all of them, you know, multi-multi-millionaires, you know, which is crazy. And I mean, I love Jennifer Aniston. I think I've said it before on here. So she was never a problem watching. But

Mike (02:43.761)
Uh huh.

Mike (02:48.654)
Hmm. Right. I've and I've always thought she was super overrated. She just.

Bill (02:58.282)
And you know what? I don't disagree with that, but I still think she's hot as fuck. But that's just me.

Mike (03:03.686)
I died to something about her that just click but whatever. Yeah. Ox though. I'll take me some Courtney Cox though. You know, pre surgery, of course.

Bill (03:08.297)
Right. Yeah, exactly. What's that?

Yeah, and she's, you know what? And I was just gonna say that she was in a show that, and I can't for the life of me remember which one it was. It was one of the more recent shows I've watched. I'm saying the last five, six, seven years, something like that, that she was in. And yeah, she's had work done. There was just, yeah, no doubt. And I looked at her, I'm like, really? I'm like, hmm, okay, you know.

Mike (03:30.647)
Maha.

Mike (03:35.31)
She has.

Mike (03:39.126)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a damn shame.

Bill (03:41.409)
I know, but they interviewed her on, I'm pretty sure it had to have been Smartless. So that was, yeah, I know it was, because they talked about the whole Bruce Springsteen thing and how all that stuff went about, and which is again, interesting story if nothing else. But yeah, so anyhow, we got a shit ton to talk about, but yeah, I mean, I'm not a Die Hard's friends fan.

Mike (03:52.471)
Mm.

Mike (03:57.834)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Bill (04:03.993)
Matthew Perry was okay. You know, he was in the one movie just real quick. Do you remember the movie, The Whole Nine Yards? I'm sure, I mean, they've been talking about that too, but Bruce Willis.

Mike (04:11.618)
Yeah, you know, I get right, right. I may have seen it at some point in some sort of stupor, but, you know, it doesn't pop.

Bill (04:23.725)
Yeah.

It would have been, I'm pretty sure when, you know, early 2000s, I think Don and I were together when we saw it. But again, another, another one, Amanda Pete plays his wife in that and she's smoking fucking hot. So, yeah, yeah. So that's two of the things, you know, I, Matthew Perry's in there, but there's Jennifer Aniston in this, Amanda Pete in this other one. I'm like, oh, OK.

Mike (04:30.38)
Right.

Mike (04:36.954)
Mmm, ah. Yeah, yeah, she is a little smoke show.

Mike (04:45.462)
Hehehehehehe

Right? I, um, yeah, I remember him from the, uh, that, uh, Chris Farley movie where they were the frontier one or whatever. Yeah. I don't remember what the hell it was called. And that was certainly a stupid movie as well, but yes.

Bill (04:58.623)
Oh shit, okay.

Bill (05:04.429)
Right. Yeah, he's been around for a couple of minutes, that's for sure. So, all right. Well, I suppose, what the fuck? Should we do a reading? I guess we'll start that off. Yeah, exactly.

Mike (05:09.152)
Uh-huh.

Mike (05:15.338)
Well, all right, we can try. Today was a day, Bill knows. Yes, I had lots and lots of moments today. I literally just finished eating about 15 minutes ago and I've only been home, I've about 45 maybe at the most. So I grabbed my book and I was looking at a couple of things and nothing was grabbing me, so you know what?

I am going to open it up, point at a page, and read it. We'll see what happens. We'll see. All right. Here we go. All right. There's no way I'm pronouncing this guy's name from the quotation, but March 26th. Why the hell not?

Bill (05:50.677)
Those are the best ones.

Mike (06:10.762)
I have never seen a greater monster or miracle than myself. Michael something or other other, some French pronunciation, we'll move on. During our act of addiction, many of us became monsters. We hurt our family and anyone who dared care about us. Now as we sit in our healing circles and listen to stories of others, we realize that we weren't alone in our actions.

We often hear tales of people destroying everything they ever loved. Then came recovery. Now we hear and see the miracles. We meet people whom everyone had given up on. They became good, sober people and good citizens again. We see courage replace fear. We see hope replace hopelessness. We see gentleness replace anger. We have the honor of witnessing miracles in the making.

We've been given the gift of seeing the healing power of spiritual principles brought to life in the actions of our members. But remember recovery doesn't keep us from being monsters. It just gives us that choice. We will be, will we, will we be monsters or miracles? Prayer for the day. Higher power helped me to remember that I am responsible for who I become and how I act.

Help me to be a walking miracle and living example of the healing power of your love. When I want to act like a monster, remind me of my goodness. Today's action. On a piece of paper, I will make two columns. In the first column, I will write down ways I have acted like a monster. In the second column, I will write down ways I am a miracle.

Bill (08:00.101)
I only laugh at that because you and I have talked about that whole thing with, you know, when everyone always says that, well, first of all, the saying that everyone hears is, you know, don't leave or don't walk away until the miracle happens because, you know, I mean, that and I think you and I have talked, if I'm not mistaken, and I know you will correct me if I'm wrong, that, you know, that this process and how we evolve is more the miracle than we are, you know, because we're just, you know, kind of.

Mike (08:12.203)
Right?

Mike (08:18.189)
Hmm.

Bill (08:27.001)
vessels in this, you know, I mean.

Mike (08:28.266)
Yeah, right. Right. We'll tap into it. We make that choice to become a part of this thing that is bigger than ourselves. Yeah.

Bill (08:35.297)
Right? And so, I mean, I don't, I guess I've never really, you know, like woken up or stood up and be like, huh, I am a miracle. What I've become, you know, as a human being and who I am to other people and all that stuff is a miracle based on the way that I was. And I know that, you know, I think you'll agree on the way that you were, but I don't know, and some people might be thinking that, you know, it's kind of slicing everything kind of thin, but to me,

Mike (08:42.861)
Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh

Mike (08:51.438)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (08:57.198)
Sure.

Bill (09:04.161)
I don't know, I need to make that separation based on, well, because I'm a fucking egotist. And if I sit there and I'm like, hey, hello there, I'm a miracle. Have you met me? Well, it just reminded me too, when we had talked to a couple of different, the podcasts we were on, when people ask about depression and stuff like that, and I really didn't wanna.

Mike (09:09.002)
Right. Hey. I'm off. Right. I'm fucking glowing.

Mike (09:28.031)
Mm.

Bill (09:30.885)
I really wasn't saying that, hey, I was depressed. I was in these depressive states and whatever, and I was depressed based on certain things. But I wasn't what I look at. People have a true depression and all those different things. I kind of look at it the same way. I mean, all of us are, again, the process is a miracle, what we're able to become and grow. But then again, we have to take the action to do the work. I think that was in there. But a couple of things that I wrote down, obviously,

Mike (09:35.146)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (09:42.53)
Hmm

Mike (09:53.27)
Right. Absolutely.

Mike (09:59.81)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (10:00.397)
You know, obviously that was right in the beginning. Not alone in our actions, destroying everything, and I forget the rest of the sentence, but I think that about covers it. And then, miracles in the making, which, yeah, I mean the process. But also, the last one, which I thought was probably the hit me the most is just living example. And that's exactly what we talk about, because it doesn't matter what we did yesterday, or how good we were to people yesterday.

Mike (10:10.667)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, right.

Mike (10:21.457)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (10:27.45)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (10:29.39)
We have to continue to live as the right examples, right?

Mike (10:33.59)
Right, exactly. Yeah, never stop.

Bill (10:37.782)
Yeah, that's been the key of a lot of our conversations too, just don't stop.

Mike (10:38.194)
Um, uh, just don't fucking stop, man. Um, right. Yeah. Um, you know, uh, we talked about in the last episode, you know, the sponsor thing. I met with my sponsor yesterday and, um, yeah, we had the, I had that conversation with him about, you know, um, it's all about the action and it's all about what we do and, you know, told him the story about, you know, walking into who do you know, and.

How you feeling? We don't care. What are you doing? Um, right. Yeah. You know, and, and I was making the point to him pretty emphatically yesterday. And he was trying to argue with me. Cause of course that's what Spontes do. Um, you know, telling them, no man, I, I am that monster. Um, it's pretty funny that I found that today.

Bill (11:08.005)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (11:33.942)
I was going, no, dude, no, I'm a rotten person, man. I'm a liar, cheat, and a thief. And, you know, I'm not, and I still am that person. And he's, he's going, no, man, look at this stuff you do. And blah, blah. I said, no, man, I do this stuff because I follow these principles. We were going over the first step, um, a little more intensely yesterday. And I was going, no, man, I, I.

don't act that way anymore, but I'm still that person. I'm still an alcoholic and I'm still a drug addict and I'm still a thief and a cheat. And I just, you know, I'm a thief that doesn't steal. I'm a cheat that plays by the rules. I'm a liar that tells the truth. You know, I'm a drunk that doesn't drink and I'm a junkie that doesn't do dope anymore. You know, but I'm still all that shit, man. You know, it's never gonna go away. So yes, I've got to remember that monster is still inside of me.

Bill (12:11.953)
Hehehehe

Mike (12:26.69)
Um, and you know, yes, um, on the outside, I am a miracle that I do these things that I do that is a fucking miracle. But like you said, it's because I have tapped into the miracle. It's not because I am the fucking miracle.

Bill (12:44.738)
But the reason I keep laughing at that, because seriously, it wouldn't take me long to sell myself on that shit and be like, yeah. No, wait a second. Have you met me type of thing again? Look at all the things that I've done. I was just going to say, I'm fucking wonderful. But it's funny that it made me think about, and I don't know if somebody used it as an example.

Mike (12:50.35)
Oh, God, yeah! Hehehehehehe! Right! Hehehehe!

Mike (12:59.586)
how goddamn wonderful I am.

Bill (13:10.869)
I know it's used as an example with motivation. They say motivation doesn't last, neither does a shower. That's why you recommend doing it daily. So that's motivation, but this thing too, it just popped into my head and it's the same thing. So you can walk up to somebody right after you get out of the shower and like, look at me, I'm all fresh and clean and I don't stink. Well, if you stop taking a shower, you may be okay tomorrow and the next day, but you're gonna fucking smell pretty goddamn quick, which is the same thing that's gonna happen to us. If we stop, you know,

Mike (13:14.823)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (13:31.089)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (13:34.85)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Bill (13:40.657)
quote, bathing in our sobriety. We're gonna get we're gonna get fucking sticky pretty goddamn quick, you know. So in that's, but that's, that's the when you were saying that about telling, no, I am horrible, which, which made me laugh. But I mean, to somebody who doesn't necessarily can't wrap their head around it yet. It's funny. But, you know, it is it's just saying that somebody know I, I'm still this person. I'm not recovered.

Mike (13:40.703)
Mm-hmm. Right. Yep.

Mike (13:48.522)
Yes we are!

Mike (13:56.494)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Mike (14:04.076)
Riot.

Bill (14:10.313)
I'm recovering. I'm not, I haven't gotten this yet. I'm still trying to get it. I'm still striving for it. You know, all those different things. And, you know, saying that, you know, we're, I don't know, maybe that's the point with saying I'm a miracle. I mean, if something was a miracle, it's fucking done. I mean, I've gotten the miracle. I don't need to do anything more. I have arrived. So I'm the fucking miracle. Right, yeah, I got nothing more to do, man. Look at me, I'm a fucking miracle. But, yeah.

Mike (14:10.923)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (14:15.562)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Mike (14:23.948)
Mm.

Mike (14:28.554)
Right. I have been washed in the fire.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Nope.

Bill (14:40.985)
Yeah, not even goddamn close, but, because yeah, all it takes is, the one little thing for either one of us to lose our heads at granted, we're a hell of a lot better than we were years ago, but both of us, it doesn't take much for any one of us. And I mean, people in recovery, to still, people are gonna piss you off. Life happens to all those different things. Yes, we can still.

Mike (15:01.698)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (15:05.481)
Yeah.

Bill (15:06.009)
we can control ourselves hopefully a little bit better based on all the shit that we have, these tools that we have. But yeah, but it doesn't take that long to pull that monster up out of the ashes because like you said, it's fucking there. It's easily there.

Mike (15:10.89)
Right. The tools in our toolbox, right?

Mike (15:20.234)
Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. Well, you know, he was poking his head out quite a bit today. Ha ha ha.

Bill (15:28.93)
So I gotta tell you a quick story. I did not lose my head about this, but I got to be the male version of a Karen today when I got my pizza and I felt, I almost felt stupid. But so I think everyone out there knows that Mike and I get pizza on Friday with very, very few exceptions. You know, like last week we went to dinner for Kathy's birthday. I did not get pizza. I had a wonderful fettuccine Alfredo, you know, so, but

Mike (15:31.322)
Alright. Mm-hmm.

Mike (15:44.918)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mike (15:52.929)
Mmm.

Bill (15:55.053)
Nine times out of 10, we get pizza. So Domino's also is a place that both of us go. They do a decent job, relatively inexpensive. It's not, I used to say Domino's was cheap and quick and easy. Now it's just quick and easy. It's not always cheap. You know, but I get what I get, because I want it, you know? So did the same thing, ordered my pizza from the same place, and I've been going to this place since I've been down here. So every fucking week, you know? And just like...

Mike (16:02.475)
Right, yeah.

Eh. Mm. Right.

Bill (16:20.589)
Little Caesars did in Wisconsin, just like Domino's did. Every once in a while, it's like, eh, just not that many toppings on it, right? You're like, eh. Then the next week it's like super full and you're like, this is cool. And then, you know, so this and that. And the only reason I opened up the box while I was inside there tonight, because it wasn't closed all the way, it was like a piece of the cardboard was ripped, so the box wasn't closing all the way.

Mike (16:28.65)
Right. Yeah.

Mike (16:33.675)
Right?

Mike (16:40.421)
Mm.

Bill (16:47.001)
So I opened it up and I looked and I mean, there's like hardly any toppings on it. And I'm just like, you fucking kidding me. So I'm looking at it and I called one of the guys over and I told him and he said, do you want to talk to a manager? And again, at that moment, I'm like, I don't want to be that guy. But I'm like, you know what? I said in my head, I'm like, I even told the guy, I said, I don't want to complain about this, but I come here every week. And I said, in my head, I'm like, you guys do better than this almost all the time. You know?

Mike (16:53.964)
Hehehehehe

Mike (17:00.994)
Mm. Right.

Mike (17:11.329)
Right.

Mike (17:17.175)
Yeah, right.

Bill (17:17.261)
Manager comes over, apologizes, makes the new pizza and stuff like that, but I still, I felt weird doing it. But then I'm like, you know what? Every once in a while, I don't do that often, but I want a nice pizza with some fucking toppings on it.

Mike (17:22.135)
Uh huh.

Nuh-uh.

Mike (17:32.262)
Yeah. Right. I mean, you know, that's picking and choosing, you know, balance, all that good stuff occasionally it's okay to stand up for yourself, you know, I mean, it is tough for us to do that sometimes in this process because, you know, we're constantly focused on, we're not the center of the universe and we're, you know, all that good stuff, but once in a while it's okay to stand up for yourself.

Bill (17:40.1)
Right.

Bill (18:00.16)
Hahaha

Mike (18:00.318)
Ain't enough shit on my pizza, man. They don't make this right. You guys are better than this, you know? And, and, you know, we can rationalize it and say, Hey, man, we're helping them out by making them be better and keeping a customer. And maybe the next person that gets a pizza won't get that shitty pizza and they'll be happy and they'll come back again. See, I can rationalize and justify anything.

Bill (18:12.494)
Yeah.

Bill (18:19.897)
Well, and you know what's funny is it's a, and they've known me for a long time. So I come in there again every Friday night and you know, I've had a couple of people say that, you know, I can't, I should know your name by now or they'll see me walk in and they grab my pizza like you, you know, going into your Domino's. I mean, that guy really knows you. And the same thing at the.

Mike (18:28.62)
Right.

Mike (18:34.19)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. He actually, it's funny. I got mine tonight, right? I was sitting out in the car. I grabbed it because another guy handed it to me that my dude was back there making a pizza and, uh, and so I grabbed mine, didn't look. I never look. And, and, you know, I'm sitting in my car, start my car, get ready to pull out. And he comes running out and he's all, Hey man, Hey man, I think they gave me the wrong pizza and, um, yeah, you know, and they had, they had given me the wrong pizza.

Bill (19:04.549)
Hehehehe

Mike (19:05.954)
was mine and it was just, yeah, it's, it is nice, you know, being, you know, being a part of, you know, walking into f*****g Domino's now people know you. It's nice. And you're not a d**k and they're happy to see you and you're a good customer, a good citizen and like all the reading f*****g said, man, we get to be that today.

Bill (19:25.511)
Well, and I do, usually when I go to my car, I look at the pizza for one reason and one reason only. When I was in Germantown, I did that one time and it looked like they had nothing but looked like some sprinkles of something on there. And I walked back in and lady looked at it and she's like, Oh yeah, they gave you the wrong pizza. She's like, that's all bacon. And I'm like, that's bacon. I'm like, I, because I think it was during the time that you and I were doing this, because I, or maybe it was nose right out of COVID where there was still

Mike (19:40.878)
Mm-hmm. Eh.

Bill (19:52.645)
I was trying to get back for the Zoom meeting, I think, for Gordon Square is what it was, because I knew I had something to do, and I think that's what it was. But I mean, I would have taken one bite of it. I knew it was bacon and wouldn't have been able to eat it. But, you know, so that's what, that's the only reason I look at it. You know, but every once in a while, it's just you're looking like, okay, you know, it's not as, it's just not as, you know, beefed up, literally beefed up as it should be. And I'm like, oh, okay. So, yeah, but.

Mike (19:56.152)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (20:03.539)
Mm. Right.

Mike (20:16.95)
Right? Torqued up.

Bill (20:21.217)
I don't know, it just, like you said, you know, not the center of the universe, whatever it was. I just, I didn't want to be that guy, but then I'm like, you know what? This is my, the one thing that I do, I don't go out to dinner a lot. You know, I kind of want to, I want a nice, I want a nice pizza. Right. Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you for cosigning my, my Karenisms.

Mike (20:25.614)
All right.

Mike (20:31.662)
Right? Yeah, I want this right. Yeah. Nothing wrong with that.

her. Absolutely.

Bill (20:44.493)
All right, so, but that was a good reading. You know, the funny part is, is I actually, and that was back from March. I remember that one almost as you were reading it, I remember that almost to a T, maybe it just, maybe that one kind of sat with me well. So, but I liked that. I mean, it made a, it's everything on there. I of course, always agree with the readings for the most part, but yeah, that one was good. The whole, I mean, again, the whole monster thing. So, well, cool. So, what do you think? Should we pop into, do you have your, you still have your book there? I actually grabbed a.

Mike (20:50.318)
Yeah. Mm.

Mike (21:01.934)
Sure. Right.

Mike (21:13.987)
It's right here.

Bill (21:15.417)
Okay. I grabbed a 12 and 12 too, just in case, but that's right. Yeah, you always got it in the book.

Mike (21:20.098)
Huh? Oh, I mean, I can read this. Yeah, right, yeah. All right, so this is the 11th month. We will talk about the 11th step. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood him, praying only for knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out.

Bill (21:30.865)
Hehe, right!

Bill (21:45.509)
So, you and I have talked about meditation quite a bit. And I mean, the general consensus is, as far as whatever we think the definition is of true meditation, which is usually, if nothing else, sitting quietly, right, and taking in whatever. People call it the universe, or trying to stay quiet and calm. Some people do, what do they call them? Guided meditation. So I don't even know what all that shit is, but I think it's actually people,

Mike (21:51.022)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (21:58.626)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (22:02.978)
Sure.

Mike (22:11.502)
Sure.

Bill (22:15.257)
You can listen to a recording and it will guide you through exactly what to do. That makes sense to me, but I don't even know. But.

Mike (22:18.734)
Mm hmm. Right. And controlled breathing. Yeah.

Bill (22:24.121)
Yeah, who was just telling us about that, the controlled breathing? Somebody was. Heidi, Heidi. Yeah, I was trying to think it was recently, but so unless I'm mistaken, I mean, I don't think that you've taken up a meditation practice recently, right?

Mike (22:28.992)
I couldn't tell you. Ah, right, yeah, right.

This is...

Mike (22:40.71)
No, I mean, other than floating, which I've talked about, um, right. You know, which is once a month, cause I can't afford more. And, but yeah, and, and actually when I go in the tank, I do some control breathing and, um, yeah, you know, it's, I love it. Um, you know, I would love to do it more, but again, can't afford it. Um, but yeah, that's, that's like the most, you know, regulated regimented, whatever meditation. Um,

Bill (22:43.086)
Right.

Bill (22:46.629)
Hahaha!

Mike (23:10.442)
Yeah. Like we've said a million times out here, you know, we started a day off with these books, put some good thoughts in our head and roll them around. That's, that's, you know, my daily meditation and I know yours too. Um, you know, uh, quite often I will spend an hour or so you guys know I drive for a living, um, I'll spend an hour or sometimes even two with, you know, the radio off and, and just quiet and just driving.

Um, that's meditative. Um, you know, just thinking and being quiet and being in, you know, my little space there and, you know, try not to kill people that cut in front of me. But yeah, you know, um, yeah, again, I'm not the guy who's going to sit cross legged with incense burning around me going home. I'm just, that's not me. But yeah.

Bill (23:51.446)
Right

Bill (24:06.373)
Well, and you know, I'm the same way sometimes driving and I've been, you know, not long trips with the exception of the one I took, you know, last month, but you know, even driving out to Ohio or going up to Wisconsin or that sort of thing. And you know, I spent some time in the car, you know, over the last month or so. And a lot of times I'll listen, I will listen to podcasts and things like that. I still listen to, I'll listen to music, but I listen to more podcasts than I do music now.

Mike (24:16.398)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mike (24:35.082)
Right. Oh yeah, me too.

Bill (24:35.801)
what I'm driving. And even here when I'm working and stuff like that, if I'm on the phone, I mean, obviously I can't, but if I'm doing something else where I can listen, it's usually podcasts and it's usually recovery podcasts because I just, I don't know, I get to that point where I know when I need that, which is a good thing. And I know when it's okay for me to just fucking blow my ears out with whatever the hell I want to listen to.

Mike (24:50.006)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (24:55.79)
Mm-hmm. Great.

Mike (25:03.854)
hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Bill (25:05.021)
And but it is it's a balance thing which we've talked about and sometimes, you know, I'm just driving along and I just get I get sick of whatever fucking voices even coming out of the speakers with good recovery stuff and I'm like fuck this, turn it off. And especially when I took that again the Ozarks and when I went out to Memphis and in Oklahoma City parts of that drive and especially when I was kicking around the Ozarks a lot of times I did I just turned I turned

Mike (25:12.939)
Mm-hmm.

Sure. Yeah.

Mike (25:23.873)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (25:34.937)
You know, there's the old joke, you know, old people and stuff, you know, turned down the radio when they're trying to find something, you know, and it's fine. If somebody wants to say that, I give a fuck. But the other thing too is it, it does. I, I wanted to just sit there and focus and kind of take in shit, you know, and, and not having, I don't know, I don't need as much background noise these days as I used to, which is cool. Um, but then like you said, every once in a while, it's just nice to, especially driving, just sit and think and.

Mike (25:40.238)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Mike (25:49.869)
Right?

Mike (25:56.358)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (26:02.969)
And that really, or maybe not even think, just listen to the fucking road, you know?

Mike (26:06.917)
Yeah, right, the home of the highway.

Bill (26:08.797)
Yeah, the Hummin the Highway. That sounds like a song or something. I'm sure we looked up lyrics for Hummin the Highway. But so yeah, that, yeah, right. Yeah, I'll turn the radio off for that too. Right, right. But so the meditation thing again, we don't do whatever the, and I don't want to say traditional thing is, but maybe.

Mike (26:12.258)
Hehehehe... Ehh, probably.

Mike (26:21.474)
getting a hummer on the highway. Anyway.

Mike (26:26.658)
Yep, absolutely. Got to focus. Hehehehehehehehe.

Mike (26:37.559)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (26:37.809)
We don't do a, again, quiet, incensed, saying om type of meditation, but we do. Even at night when I, and I just thought about that, at night when I do my prayers, you know, I kind of recap my day and that's what I do first as I do that, like the recap and the 10-step type of thing. And sometimes I'll just sit there for a couple of minutes and I'll lay there because I'm in my bed. But, you know, just kind of lay in bed and, you know, at that point, kind of think about the day type of thing, you know, just quietly and figure out, is there, I know there's no other shit.

Mike (26:44.276)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (26:53.705)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (27:03.03)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (27:06.309)
pretty much in my head that I got to figure out. But it's taking those little moments, I think, that are more important, well, I'm sorry, not more important, just as important as sitting down and saying, okay, now I'm gonna meditate.

Mike (27:09.303)
Right?

Mike (27:23.51)
Yes, sorry, I was coughing. I muted myself.

Bill (27:23.957)
Oh, oh no, that's a yeah. And the funny thing was I'm like, ah, fuck me. I lost him. But then I looked down and I saw your mute button. So I'm like, cool, cool. But that's what you should have said. You're like, oh, let's just meditating. But no, I think it's important just to, you know, I mean, have those quiet moments throughout the day just as much as, you know, having some focus time.

Mike (27:35.614)
Hey, hey, hey. Yeah, hold on. I'm still here. Just had to meditate for a second.

Hehehehe. Hehehehehehe.

Mike (27:48.246)
Yeah, absolutely. And you kind of touched on it, you know, that we can be quiet. We don't need that external stimuli all the time. Like we used to, to drown out that nonsense in our heads. Um, we've, we've drowned a lot of it out already, so we can sit there and be quiet and peaceful and it's nice. I I'm yeah, it's one of the, one of the promises man, you know, peace and serenity.

Bill (28:09.349)
It is.

Bill (28:15.853)
Yeah, and when, you know, this same thing, when I was in, even when I was in Beaver Dam and again, like the Ozarks and stuff like that, having just sitting, you know, outside on the balcony, the patio and stuff like that and just, I don't know, just staring at nothing. Because I don't have many times, and part of it is just the way I'm built. I mean, I can't sit still. I always have to be doing something. It's, I don't always need background noise, but a lot of times.

Mike (28:26.919)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (28:31.786)
Right? Hehehehe.

Mike (28:39.47)
Mm-hmm, right.

Bill (28:43.381)
I wouldn't even have the background noise, but I'm usually doing something, you know, just kind of, I don't know the way I'm wired, I guess, but, you know, every once in a while to, yeah, just sit there and, you know, someplace peaceful like that and do fucking nothing, even if it's for five minutes. I mean, it's beautiful, fucking wonderful, you know? So the other part of it, obviously prayer and meditation, conscious contact through or with God as we understood or stand him, correct?

Mike (28:46.936)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (28:55.836)
Hmm.

Right. Yep.

Mike (29:11.566)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (29:12.845)
So once again, I think everyone realizes that or knows you're an atheist, I'm agnostic, but we still have in that circumstance, perfect example where either one of us may read the words, but we're gonna be envisioning whatever our higher power is or again, something greater than ourselves. But so both of us do a set of prayers. I think mine is more probably, I wanna say more extensive, but probably longer than yours. I think you have a relatively short prayer thing.

Mike (29:27.576)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (29:40.878)
I do.

Bill (29:42.605)
But we do them, you know? And I think it does. First of all, we were told to do it. And we don't know why it works necessarily still to this day. But it does. And I know for a fact that if either one of us didn't do it, it just wouldn't feel right.

Mike (29:44.29)
Oh yeah.

Mike (29:49.546)
Right?

Mike (29:53.218)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (30:00.83)
Oh yeah, exactly. Right. I mean, it's, well, it's just become part of what we do. Um, but yeah, like you said, you know, it was, it's, it's an action that they told us that we have to take to do this thing. So we take the action. We do it, you know, and, uh, again, talking to my sponsor yesterday, I was like, Hey man, you know, it doesn't matter if you think anything's listening or not. It really doesn't. You do what you're told to do. What's suggested. Um,

Bill (30:29.637)
Hehehehe

Mike (30:30.378)
Yeah, you know, yeah, again, you know, pray go to meetings, help another drunk. Okay. But I don't think anything's listening. So, who fucking cares? I, you know, this is part of the program. Do you wanna do the program? Do you wanna get the results of the program? Yes, I do. All right, well then, this is part of the program, so do it. You know, yeah, it's the 11th step, man. Sought through prayer and meditation.

You know, do I pray the way probably most people do? No. Do I meditate the way most people do? I don't know, maybe. But I do it. That's the whole point. I take the action, I do it. You know, I pray twice a day. Say please in the morning and thank you at night. Yeah, that's it, you know, and the meditation, you know, again, put these thoughts in my head, roll them around first thing in the day to get my day going. To realize I am not

center of the universe, I'm not running this shit. You know, there are better ideas out there than mine. And I remind myself of that every day. Because I have to.

Bill (31:38.446)
Right, yeah, I know. It's a tough thing because I mean I think I'm more egotistical than you, but I'm better. I mean I know I'm better than, sure as hell better than I was, but yeah that's still one of my problem areas. But so the other thing too, praying for the knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out. So that's something that, I mean I think...

Mike (31:48.706)
Right?

Mike (31:59.149)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (32:02.765)
Well, not even think we do that all the time, you know, your will not your will not mine, you know, I mean, that's what it is That's that's that simple statement your will not mine or something else's will Not mine, you know, and it's

Mike (32:05.666)
Right. Yeah.

Mike (32:15.15)
Right. Oh yeah, I mean, you know, well, when we do the Lord's Prayer at the end of every meeting, the only part I say is, you know, I will be done. You know, because it's the only part of it that makes any sense to me, that applies to me. The rest of it, I do something else. I sing the Beatles, All You Need Is Love. And I have for over 13 years. I've got it timed out that it works out exactly the same as the Lord's Prayer.

Bill (32:34.928)
All right.

Mike (32:42.926)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Bill (32:45.029)
Which again is really cool and I know I've said this on here before but you know to begin with I think when you and I started going to more meetings together where we were actually standing next to each other and I heard that, I know for a fact I asked you about it. You know because I did. You know I mean I wasn't, I didn't think you'd have a problem with me asking and you gave me the same answer as you just gave now. You know fucking 13 some years ago. But um.

Mike (32:54.862)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (33:06.027)
No, right.

Bill (33:12.421)
And it was, I don't know, it's something it's like it comforting. Yeah, maybe it is. It's a comforting thing when I hear you say that because I know where it comes from. You know, and knowing what, what people do and how people stay sober in the process that they go through and stuff like that is very cool to me because once again, we've talked about this a million times. You and I don't look the same. We didn't come from the same background. We had all these different things happen, but

Mike (33:22.189)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (33:38.905)
you know, literally ended up at the same place within days of each other on the same fucking porch step at the Keating Center, you know, and, and broken in the same number of fucking pieces. I mean, how does, how does that happen? You know, um, you want to talk about miracles. Um, but you know, hearing all these different things that people do, I know that, uh, speaking of Michael, I mean, he's been very open about it. Um, you know, him and, uh, him and Megan pray together, you know, they talked about that years ago.

Mike (33:43.022)
Mm-hmm. Yep, yep.

Mike (33:50.655)
Yes, we were.

Mike (33:57.899)
Right.

Mike (34:08.066)
Sure. Mm-hmm.

Bill (34:08.913)
And I think that's one of the most, that's gotta be one of the most number one, intimate and beautiful things that a couple can do together. And I don't know. I mean, maybe I would do that someday with somebody, but I mean, that, that time is mine. It's always been mine and I'm, I'll talk about it. It's not like, uh, you know, I, I hide the fact that I, that I pray and do these different things and do these readings, but it's also mine. You know, it's my time, you know? But, um,

Mike (34:20.564)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (34:25.012)
Right.

Mike (34:34.552)
Mm-hmm.

That's right, Mr. Hand.

Bill (34:40.154)
That's so great. And that'll always come up now, because that came up on the episode with Katie, Mr. Hand. But a couple of the things that I always do, that I always say, and it was something a guy said in one of the meetings that we were, again, we were still at the Keating Center, still doing the walk and all that stuff, because I remember thinking about this and adding this to my prayers at that time, about he.

Mike (34:45.762)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (34:58.475)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (35:06.113)
Every day he said I asked for the strength and he said the strength to do whatever but um, I always say that I said, you know, give me the strength, you know, and I think that's probably where I follow up with, you know, some powerless over and blah blah. But you know, I do, I always, I just give me the strength and the other thing too and I'm not telling anyone how to how to say prayers or whatever, but we were always taught, well, let me step back. I did not know how to pray. I had no fucking idea.

Mike (35:19.757)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (35:32.939)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (35:35.969)
I was so happy when we were in group. It could have been more than the first week or so, maybe a couple of weeks. And one of the guys, God only knows who it was, but raised his hand and just said, he goes, what do I do? I have no idea how to pray. And in my head, I'm like, thank you. I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what to do. And in my prayers, again, whether they're traditional or whatever, it doesn't fucking matter. I've got a thing I do now and I've built on it over the years, but.

Mike (35:51.778)
Mm. Hehehehehehe. Right, right.

Bill (36:04.977)
Um, but the whole point of what I was getting at is that we were, it was suggested to us to, to not pray for ourselves, you know, pray for other people and, and good things happen. And the only thing that I ever, you know, kind of, and it's right at the end of my prayers, um, I just ask to be kept, um, healthy, you know, I, for my health. That's it. But here's the thing though, I still gotta do the fucking work. You know, I can't walk around and, you know, doing whatever I feel like doing, you know, and then be like, Hey, by the way.

Mike (36:12.446)
Right.

Mike (36:24.856)
Huh?

Bill (36:34.693)
Keep me healthy, yeah?

Mike (36:35.491)
Hey, keep me healthy as I shove my third big Mac down my face.

Bill (36:39.177)
Yeah, yeah, Big Mac or whatever the fuck it is, you know, you know, eat right, not get enough sleep. Well, I do drink a lot of coffee, but, you know, those sort of things. But that's the only thing. And other than that, I mean, I just I do. I just I pray for other people and, you know, for other people in their lives and for their circumstances and in that sort of thing. And that helps me. It makes me feel I guess makes me feel good about myself, you know, because I don't know if it changes anything, you know, but.

Mike (36:42.718)
Uh huh. Yeah. Right.

Mike (36:53.762)
Yeah.

Mike (37:02.814)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Right. Yeah. Well, it changes your attitude and therefore, you know, the way you interact with other people, you know, um, yeah, I mean, one of the few things that I remember from the first time I tried to get sober, um, on the prayer thing, um, they told us you can't have any gimme prayers, which I liked. Yeah. You know, right. Yeah.

Bill (37:28.474)
Okay, right.

Mike (37:31.458)
Cause I mean, that was, you know, anytime we pray, you know, most of us, I'm speaking of us alcoholics and drug addicts, you know, when we prayed in the past, it was, you know, get me out of this jackpot, you know, or, you know, make sure the dope man shows up on time. Please God, I need a fix. Um, yeah, give me prayers, you know, uh, you know, make me rich, make me, you know, whatever. Okay. Yeah.

let my car run better, you know, whatever, fucking crazy shit like that, you know, doesn't work. Yeah, so you can't have nothing for me, you know, in my prayers other than the strength to do what I have to do to stay sober to this day. That's my only gimme, gimme the strength I need to do what I gotta do to stay sober today. That's pretty much my please prayer in the morning. And yeah, you know, and again, I don't expect.

Bill (38:02.208)
All right.

Mike (38:26.83)
I don't expect any help really. I know I've got to do the shit. You know, I just, I just need to remind myself that again, that's the reminder that I have to do it, you know, and I have to find that inner strength within myself. It's there. I just need to access it.

Bill (38:43.301)
Well, and I've heard, I think since, but I mean, certainly in early recovery, heard people talking about that, you know, people that gave up on God, which, you know, thankfully when I came in, I had no opinion on whatever the traditional, you know, mainstream God thing is, you know. I had no opinion on it. I just didn't have a background in it. So I didn't have a problem, I don't know, taking in some of that stuff. And then, you know, again,

Mike (38:54.434)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (39:01.902)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (39:10.397)
using the words how I wanted to or whatever they were, but you know, so many people said, oh this and that, then I was always going to church and praying and then somebody died and no, my prayers didn't get answered and what type of God would do this and do that and that sort of thing and I just, I thought that was even at the time before I really had I don't know even a conception of what my higher power was in my mind. I'm like that's kind of fucked up you know and because and then

Mike (39:13.9)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (39:24.408)
Uh-huh.

Right?

Mike (39:36.654)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Bill (39:39.541)
I kept hearing it through the time that Larry was sick, you know, for everyone, if you forget, Larry was my stepdad. And he got sick January of the first, in our first year or so, what, nine months, eight, nine months over in that area when he started getting sick and then he died a year and a month, you know, after we got sober. And my prayers for him, you know, changed over that six-month period. It's kind of like, okay, you know.

Mike (39:43.366)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (39:55.766)
Right. Yeah.

Bill (40:08.869)
praying for his, you know, his decent health, praying for him to get better, then, you know, it came all the way down to the point where before he died, he's just, you know, kind of praying for him to, you know, I don't know, keep some, whatever dignity he wanted, because he's a super proud man, you know, but also, you know, to be able to deal with the pain and shit he was going through, dialysis and all that stuff. So, you know, kind of praying for a little bit of, you know, peace that he could have, you know, and I suppose at the end I could have been, well, fucking none of that worked.

Mike (40:22.022)
Mm-hmm. Sure. Right.

Mike (40:30.23)
Right.

Mike (40:34.699)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (40:39.449)
So these fucking prayers, fuck them, you know, but I knew I couldn't change the world. I knew that much. But you know, I think and this could be, this might be a weird thought, but I think that us praying for other people like that actually helps us deal with our own shit when it comes to that baby. Hmm. Right. I know.

Mike (40:39.498)
Right?

Mm-hmm.

Mike (40:55.531)
Mm-hmm.

Well, of course. Right. Yeah, it should. Yeah. What the hell else is it going to do? Right. I mean, it's not going to keep anybody alive. Everybody fucking dies. Um, yeah, you know, and, and it's right. It's going to, it helps you cope and helps you to be better prepared for the people around you. Yeah. You know, that's it. That's all. Yeah. Keep you, keep you sane and don't.

keep you from being a problem. You know, adding to the strife and the bad situation. Right, yeah, that's all. If that's enough, it should be enough. I would hope it's enough.

Bill (41:40.625)
Right? Yeah. Well, and that's the thing. I mean, it was a tough thing to deal with, you know, that early insubriety, but I don't know. I mean, it was when I look back at it now, even with the way that I was, you know, able to handle that, deal with that and, you know, allowed myself to go through the entire process. I mean, it was good that I was able to, again, not good that it happened. I don't even know how to put this.

Mike (41:50.977)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (42:03.511)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (42:10.069)
It was an interestingly positive thing to happen to me or for me to go through at that time of sobriety. Maybe let's put it that way, you know?

Mike (42:16.198)
Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Well, if nothing else, it showed you that working this program can get you through fucking anything. Yeah. Right. And early sobriety, we kind of need that. We need to be shown that this shit works. You know, well, we had later sobriety and I would imagine, you know, at the end of sobriety, yeah, you know, again, keep reminding me that this shit works and it's going to get me through whatever.

Bill (42:26.265)
Right? Yeah. Which, which.

Bill (42:33.881)
Hahaha

Bill (42:39.991)
Right?

Mike (42:45.75)
This world throws at me.

Bill (42:47.973)
Yeah, it is. And, you know, again, back to the miracle thing. It's a miracle in my mind how, you know, once again, doing all these different things brings around so many positive things in our lives. You know, it just, again, why does it work? Who fucking knows? Who fucking cares? Don't care anymore. I don't care why. I just know it does. Right? All right. So on that note, what do you think? Break to it.

Mike (43:09.518)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (43:15.887)
Yep. We'll definitely take a break here. We're going to talk more about, um, God, no, I'm not even going to say that because that's sick. Um, see, my thoughts are still wrong. Kids will be back with more interesting conversation right after these words from our sponsor.

Bill (43:22.03)
Hehehehe... Hehehehehehe...

Right?

Bill (43:38.545)
All right, everyone, welcome back. And I am dying to ask you, but I'm not gonna make you say it. I'm just not, I'm not, you know, but yeah, in my head, I've got a thousand different thoughts, but I'm like, that is good. The fact that you caught yourself, you just, you were proving something. Everything we were just talking about, you just showed. Yes, you just gave an example. But.

Mike (43:53.806)
Mm-hmm. Uh-huh, right. Hehehehe. Exactly. This bad thought was gonna come out of my mouth and I went, no, don't need to do that. Yep, it is. See? Yep. Hehehehe.

Bill (44:08.889)
Right, you caught it. And see, that's a good thing. Yeah, see, like you said, see kids, thoughts are still fucked up, but there, we don't know how it works, but it just, you literally just saw it work or heard it work, heard it work.

Mike (44:22.035)
picture it in your mind.

Bill (44:23.569)
All right, so yes, I mean, the other thing, are we good on step 11? I mean, I think that, I think we covered everything.

Mike (44:30.662)
I think so, right? You know, yeah, take the action. You know, it doesn't matter if you believe it or not do it. And if you do believe it, you got a leg up on us. So good for you.

Bill (44:41.005)
Right, and you know, I mean, that's the main thing. You don't have to believe in anything in particular. We talked about that, you know, till we're fucking blue in the face. It doesn't have to be one thing. Just know it's not you, you know? And that's all we gotta do. All right, so obviously, you know, we've been through the last week or so and, you know, had the posts and stuff like that on Instagram and obviously over on Facebook. Replayed the clips from the episode that we did a year ago when our mom died.

Mike (44:51.29)
Oh, right.

Mike (45:07.45)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (45:10.457)
and that was October 30th of 2022. So a little over a year and a few days ago. But the main thing is, and I don't know, Mike and I talked about that, about doing the episode clips, and I'm one of those people where, like, the anniversary of my stepdad I was just talking about when he died, to begin with I used to make more, probably more open posts about it.

I do what I feel on that day. You know, sometimes I'll just put his picture up, you know. Sometimes I'll just, you know, post a picture of him. Sometimes I'll post something if it's in my heart or my mind. Same thing that when my, you know, anniversary, when my dad died. If anyone ever sees this picture of a tree, whether it's a black and white tree or a tree in general, around the middle of March, March 14th to be exact, that's where my dad's ashes are sprinkled.

Mike (46:00.093)
Right.

Bill (46:08.061)
And sometimes I just post that picture. So, same thing with our mom. I didn't really know what we were gonna do or if we were gonna do. So the one thing that we had talked about was, hey, let's rerun the episode clips, at least get those back out there. Kind of a nice little tribute to, if nothing else, reminder of everything that we kind of processed through. But then we figured that, what the hell, man? We'll...

Mike (46:11.243)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (46:33.155)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (46:35.053)
If we got anything on our minds to talk about tonight, we will. And if not, that's cool too. You know, we've, we've processed through all this stuff in the last year, but, uh, it's been a hell of a year. And, you know what I mean? That in a bad way, it hasn't been, um, it's been a bad year. It just been it probably, uh, I dunno, a couple hours ago, I think when I was going to get my pizza, um, it was kind of, I'm thinking, I'm like, fuck man. I can't even, it's probably the first time I started to think about the fact of literally that it's been.

Mike (46:40.268)
Alright.

Mike (46:44.885)
It has.

Bill (47:04.297)
a year. I mean, this year just seems like it's done a lot of shit, you know, good things like last year, but it just, it really seemed like it flew by, doesn't it? I mean, it does it does seem that way, you know, when you when you're a kid, you're in school, and, you know, the fucking school years last forever and summers, you know, drive by like a like a fucking freight train, but I don't know, it just seemed like it went by really quickly, you know, so

Mike (47:06.542)
Alright.

Mike (47:10.837)
Right?

Mike (47:14.994)
Yeah, they keep getting smaller.

Foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, foo, fo

Mike (47:24.514)
Right?

Bill (47:34.717)
But kind of like that first year of sobriety, a little bit different because I think that first year of sobriety, I mean, there was so many things that we were dealing with and trying to wrestle with, I guess. But I suppose, I mean, you know, here and there, we had some things to wrestle with throughout this year. But it was almost the same way that first year of sobriety seems to go pretty quick, you know, and then, you know, just all of a sudden, like your true year and then, you know, this one's been a year. I just don't even know if that's a...

Mike (47:34.83)
Huh?

Mike (47:46.766)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (47:58.574)
Hmm.

Bill (48:02.649)
That's a decent example. I don't know.

Mike (48:06.166)
Hmm. Yeah. I mean, well, it's kind of like, you know, when you're, you know, like when you're four years old, right? A year is a fucking quarter of your life. You know, you know, now it's, it's a one 56th of my life. Almost one 57. Um, yeah. So, um, right. They're, they're just like, like I said, they keep getting smaller. Um, it doesn't seem like it's been a year, but.

Bill (48:14.723)
All right

Bill (48:23.482)
Right.

Mike (48:35.466)
You know, um, I mean, we all, you know, Kathy posted, you posted, I posted on, on social media stuff, um, on the day. Um, Kathy reposted, uh, the things she read it, uh, at the funeral, which was, which was interesting to read again. Um, yeah, you know, it was touching. It was, it was beautiful then it was beautiful a year later. Um,

Bill (48:54.778)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (49:03.842)
You know, you posted a bunch of pictures. Um, I posted one, um, it's my favorite one. It was, um, when we went to that, uh, preseason football game, when the Packers were up here in Cleveland. Um, and we were all, you know, well, we were what? That was less than a year, right? Now, now year and a half. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. There was a second. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It was the second one. That's right. Um,

Bill (49:22.25)
Um, no, it was year and year in a few months. Yeah.

Mike (49:31.85)
Yeah, you know, um, but still fairly early, you know, I, just a little over a year being sober and, um, you know, yeah, that's right. Cause, uh, Larry had just passed a couple of months before that. And I just remember, you know, um, I remember walking with mom is one of my favorite memories with her, um, early on. It was the first time I really, um, realized how much I, I cared for this woman. Um,

You know, we're walking through the crowd and Browns fans are dicks. And, uh, you know, you guys were all Packard out. I had a black Misfits t-shirt on because I didn't care about either one of the teams still don't. And, you know, but yeah, we're walking through and you guys are all, you know, and you're green and gold and, you know, the Dick Cleveland fans are, you know, saying things to you guys and yelling and mom, I could tell was getting a little uncomfortable. Um,

Bill (50:08.069)
Ha ha ha!

Bill (50:13.158)
Hehehe

Mike (50:29.614)
from it, you know, it's, you know, Christ Larry, it just, her man was fucking gone just a couple of months. And, and, I don't know, I just felt her, her uncomfortableness on ease, whatever it was, wasn't huge or anything, but I just, and I went, and I, and I just fucking sidled right up next to her and stood up as big and tall as I could and said, you know what, you're walking with me. I didn't even say that. It was just in my head, you know, it was like,

Bill (50:51.813)
Hehehehe

Mike (50:58.658)
get right next to her, I'm walking with her as big as I fucking can and you motherfuckers better back off or I'm gonna hurt you. And yeah, like I said, it was the first time I got to put into action my feelings for that woman. And yeah, so I love that picture of us just sitting there. And we had just gotten to our seats when that picture was taken, so I was still all pumped up and ready to kick some ass for her.

Bill (51:04.715)
Right?

Mike (51:27.362)
And I love that picture. So yeah.

Bill (51:28.298)
Right? Well, in that day too, and I didn't think about it until we were standing in line. I think I was in line with Derek and I was going to get a soda and we were going to get a couple of things. Then it just occurred to me that was the first big drinking event that I had ever been at. I mean, it's a fucking football stadium, you know? And

Mike (51:49.079)
Mmm. Sure.

Bill (51:51.605)
I realized at that point, I was so pissed off at the crowd and everything else we were trying to get through that it was cool. I was more pissed off about the crowd than I was realizing that I'm in the middle of a fucking alcohol event. So I do remember too, because even at that time, and that was 2011, so 11 years ago now, if you remember correctly, because you walked up, I walked up the outer ramp with the kids.

Mike (51:56.456)
Aha. Alright.

Mike (52:04.99)
Uh-huh.

Bill (52:20.513)
And then you, Kathy and mom went up the elevator because she was having, you know, she could, she could walk and stuff. It's your, her COPD was even kicking it at that point. Um, and then I just, I remember it just clicked into my head because that's why you were at, you went that way and we went the other way. Um, but yeah, once we got up to the stands and. Cause we were, I think when Kathy took that picture, you hadn't found us yet because I got up with the kids, we couldn't find you guys and I just sat down with the kids figure and fuck this. I was just so pissed.

Mike (52:20.959)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (52:24.3)
Right.

Mike (52:29.198)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (52:36.133)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (52:49.813)
And then I remember looking over at Derek and he's sitting on the edge of his seat. He's got a baseball hat on his packer hat on, you know, his packer jersey on his Amon Green packer jersey and a big old fucking smile. And I just, and I'm all fucking grumbly and I'm just so you fucking people, you drunk ass motherfuckers, you Cleveland Browns fuckers. And I looked over at him and I'm like, like you're really enjoying yourself. Aren't you? And he's like, yeah, I really am. And I was like, it was like that thing where just, it just, you know, this whole

Mike (52:50.988)
Hehehehe

Mike (52:57.799)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Mike (53:09.586)
Aha. Hehehehe.

Mike (53:16.174)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Bill (53:19.285)
level of calm just kind of washed over me because I'm like, you know, again, back to the point where that was the first time that I really figured out, probably not first time, but a main time when realized that it wasn't just wasn't all about me. And that's kind of what you were just talking about. It wasn't about you walking through there. It was you making sure that somebody else was taken care of and me making sure that, you know, not even making sure, but just basking in the fact that this little boy is having the time of his fucking life because he's never been to a football game before, you know.

Mike (53:22.868)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (53:29.154)
Hmm.

Mike (53:33.547)
Right?

Mike (53:37.048)
Uh huh.

Yup.

Mike (53:46.282)
Mm-hmm. Right, yeah, in a NFL stadium. Yeah. Hey, hey, hey. Yeah, yeah, pushed right in your faces, man. It's pretty fucking nice.

Bill (53:49.337)
Yeah. Ha ha ha.

Bill (53:56.609)
I know. Yeah, I know. But, but yeah, I mean, it's been, you know, like, like Kathy had said right after right after mom died, you know, because her, her birthday was November 6. So we got I mean, all the first, you know, as Kathy said, a lot of them out of the way right away, you know, last year with her, her birthday was a week after then there was Thanksgiving, which is a big holiday for hers, because it was a favorite of Larry's also. And that's what we always get together.

Mike (54:10.03)
Hmm.

Mike (54:14.413)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Bill (54:23.621)
Then you got Christmas and you got New Year's because Kathy used to do something with mom on New Year's. And then, of course, the next one came around was Mother's Day and that was fucking weird. And then just the rest of the summer just kind of blew by. But through this whole process, I mean, getting the house clean, I mean, selling the house, the selling the house thing wasn't a big deal. That house wasn't, and she even said it once, she said that house was never a home.

Mike (54:32.957)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (54:47.489)
Right.

Bill (54:49.397)
And it wasn't, she didn't mean that in a bad way. It just that, you know, she moved here and it just, it was a place she lived and she liked it. And she was comfortable there. But, you know, there, there's more things than, you know, four walls and a roof to make a home. And that's what she meant, you know? Um, so the, the physical house wasn't a big deal cleaning out the house. That was, that was fucking weird, you know, but, but looking back now and again, I'm just so happy that so much of her stuff got, you know, got taken by these charitable people, the, the Duns and the other organizations.

Mike (54:50.414)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (55:03.084)
Right.

Mike (55:17.806)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (55:19.093)
And it literally went to homeless people that, well, people were homeless and were now, you know, kind of just getting back on their feet, just getting into their first residences and, you know, yeah, exactly. You know, and, and I'm like, it was so fulfilling. And even though that wouldn't have been her necessarily, it wasn't her plan. I know she would have, she would have been all about that. If, if we would have been able to make that move and we couldn't get rid of all that stuff, she would have been all about doing something like that. Cause that's the way she was.

Mike (55:27.01)
Hmm. We could relate to that.

Mike (55:46.915)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Bill (55:49.789)
And then, I don't know, just again, thinking back, there's so much positive to think back on. There's still sadness and there's, the grief lasts for as long as it lasts. And I'm sure all of us, you still have your moments every once in a while. You see something, hear something, whatever, it's just kind of like, hm, okay. All right, that sort of thing. You're like, fuck it, I get it. I get it, those little feelings are still there, but.

Mike (56:01.518)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (56:08.93)
Huh, yeah, yeah. Right. Hm, hm, hm.

Mike (56:18.412)
Of course.

Bill (56:18.649)
You know, it's, she lived a good life and, you know, the last couple of years were super rough, but you know, she was a good person to us and all of her faults and funny things and all that stuff, but just to, you know, it's, again, you know, all I could do is laugh and smile because same thing I said when she passed away, you know, there was nothing unsaid, nothing undone, no regrets, you know, which is,

Mike (56:29.902)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (56:35.01)
Hehehe

Mike (56:45.802)
Right.

Bill (56:48.021)
Not something I could say when my dad died, because I hadn't gotten sober yet. Something I could say when Larry passed. I didn't have any regrets there. He and I cleaned our shit up. I'm sorry, I cleaned my shit up with him. Yeah, that motherfucker cleaned shit up with me, man. That's what happened. But you know, there's a whole different point to that. And it just reminded me, Kathy and I were talking.

Mike (56:53.357)
Right?

Mike (56:59.65)
Yep. Right.

Mike (57:13.486)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (57:17.39)
When did Dan pass away? Was that a couple of months ago now?

Mike (57:22.888)
Yeah. What the hell is it now? I don't remember. Oh yeah. It was still hot. Oh yeah. Beginning of August. Cause we came back for the service when we came back from our anniversary in port Clinton. So yeah, yeah. Beginning of August.

Bill (57:32.095)
Oh yeah.

Bill (57:37.285)
That's right. Yep. Yeah, and I was going up to Appleton to babysit that weekend, and we were thinking it was gonna be that next week, and then it was literally that weekend. But so Kathy and I were talking at one point, and I don't matter if I brought this up again, I'm gonna repeat myself, but we were talking about the whole point of, I mean, obviously, with Dan passing away, or when people die sober, especially good people, people that have done a good job with their life, or done good things with their life, is that...

Mike (57:44.238)
Mm-hmm. Right. Yep.

Mike (58:01.698)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (58:06.485)
And I told him, like, it's just not, it's, I mean, we're sad. We miss him. You know, we cared about him. He was a huge, huge part of our sobriety, especially an early sobriety, but all the way through. But I'm like, it just it's OK. You know, you go to a funeral when somebody for somebody passes away like that. And you don't see people crying. You see people laughing and telling stories. And she's like, so it's more of like a like a celebration type of thing. And I said, exactly. People say that all the time. They're going to get together as a celebration of life.

Mike (58:11.214)
Sure.

Mike (58:15.378)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, right, yep.

Mike (58:25.334)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (58:36.529)
And when it comes to good sober people dying like that, that is in the truest sense, it is a celebration of what they did. It's not, it's just there's not the same type of sadness and grief, you know?

Mike (58:46.901)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (58:52.17)
Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, you know, when I went to Brownie's funeral, I mean, that was at St. Coleman's and that place was fucking packed. Um, you know, there were like hundreds of people there. Like you said, it was, it was a celebration, man. People were, it was, it was beautiful, you know, um, Catholic service and whatever, and I mean, um, it was cool. It was even the, you know, the, whatever the service itself, the priest up there talk, I mean, he was talking about.

service and, you know, doing for others. And that's, you know, that was Ray's whole thing, man was, you know, being of service and well, it's the program. Um, and it was just, it was hell. I liked that part. I liked the priest up there talking. So that's how good it fucking was. Yeah, exactly. Celebration, man, nothing wrong with it. You know, life well lived. We're all going to get there, you know, hopefully, hopefully when it's our time.

Bill (59:35.119)
Right.

Bill (59:41.989)
Right.

Mike (59:50.51)
And it will be, it will be the same thing, you know, right. People are, again, another, Babar, right. You know, I went to his, I didn't go to the service, I went to the visitation. Yeah, same thing, man. Joyous, people laugh and people telling stories, you know. Yeah, he did this, he did that, good shit. Fuck, man, you know, if we'd have kicked before we got sober and we started working this thing, there'd have been none of that.

Bill (59:59.266)
Hahaha!

Mike (01:00:20.174)
It would have been, you know, if anything, there would have been a little bit of relief that we were fucking done. Um, yeah, the son of a bitch isn't hurting me like he was. Yeah, he's gone. You know, um, no, it's going to be, yeah, he did this good shit. Hopefully. Yeah. Celebration. Same with mom, you know? Um, yes, we were sad she was gone, but that's, that's us being selfish. You know? Um, we were there to celebrate the life well lived.

And then that's, that's great.

Bill (01:00:53.169)
Well, and we had talked about that after we got back from, you know, from the service and from, you know, Chippewa Lake and stuff like that. I mean, we had, that was so nice. I mean, having everyone together. And that's one of the things we had talked about, I remember on that episode was that, you know, I mean, you look back and there wasn't, there was a little bit, you know, there's that, again, there's this impact that your mom just passed is in the air, but it wasn't this overwhelming, you know, grief and sadness. We're all having a great time together, you know.

Mike (01:01:00.138)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:01:06.018)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (01:01:18.871)
Uh-huh.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, the family was together. Yeah.

Bill (01:01:22.989)
And we were, we were having that celebration. And it made me think about when my first sponsor, Bill had died too, in the same deal, hundreds of people at that service. I couldn't even get in the actual room itself, the whole church area, I was in like the lobby. And you could hear the same thing. And that just reminded me that the priest was, you could tell the priest knew, obviously knew him really well because

Mike (01:01:41.538)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Bill (01:01:51.481)
You could hear him talking, here's a little bit of recovery over here, and here's some God shit over here, and then here, there's a little bit more recovery in here, and then, you know, a little bit more God stuff over here. And he just intermingled all that. And they did that at Megan and Michael's wedding, if you remember that too. It was all about that. We'll have to, I'm sure we'll talk about the wedding because their anniversary is coming up, but.

Mike (01:01:51.79)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:01:56.458)
Mm-hmm. Right? Uh-huh.

Mike (01:02:10.774)
Right?

Mike (01:02:15.094)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:02:16.273)
When you see that sort of thing, and I mean, grad, that was a wedding, obviously not a funeral, but same deal though, it's just intermingling all these things that, you know, that the things that those two had done up to that point sober, you know, and what these, Bavar. Do we want to tell that story? Yeah. Let's.

Mike (01:02:21.826)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Mike (01:02:36.258)
So we should probably explain it. Um, right. Early real early recovery. Um, Bob, his guy named Bob, that was it. Our, our home group. Who do you know? Um, good guy, blah, blah. He gave me a Christmas card that first year and he signed it Bob R. So I got back to the three quarter house and Hey man, I got Christmas card. I'm talking to Bill. Yeah, I got a Christmas card. Yeah. Who from Bob R is Bob R.

Bill (01:02:43.32)
Heh.

Mike (01:03:03.202)
The Elephant?

Bill (01:03:06.45)
I was... I've been laughing this entire time as you were retelling that story because it was fucking funny. And we've told that... I've got to collect myself here.

Mike (01:03:07.742)
And from then on, he was known as Babart.

Mike (01:03:18.126)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Mike (01:03:22.882)
Hehehehehehehehe

Mike (01:03:29.691)
Hehehehehe

Bill (01:03:30.169)
Told that story to people before and, fucking Babar. Yeah. And yeah, we'd be at, ah, who do you know after that? One of us would always do that. He'd walk in and we're like, yeah, Babar. Yeah. We, we, we are not a club plot.

Mike (01:03:33.271)
Uh-huh.

Yeah. Hehehehe.

Mike (01:03:45.29)
Eh, eh, Babar's here.

Mike (01:03:54.774)
We have fun, kids!

Mike (01:03:59.882)
We are not.

Bill (01:04:03.54)
Oh, shit. OK, I think I'm OK. Yeah.

Mike (01:04:07.446)
Yeah, sure. We could take another break. Alright.

Bill (01:04:10.053)
No, I think I'm okay. I think I'm okay, because technically our breaks, nobody knows while they do, but our breaks are only about six seconds anyhow, so it wouldn't fucking help. Whew, okay. But yeah, so that was a lot of fun. But there were times, weird times throughout this year, you know, like when we got, and shit, I mean, since we, since mom passed, I mean, we got the Hazelden thing, which.

Mike (01:04:19.942)
Right.

Bill (01:04:37.553)
I was like one of the first things I thought about, I'm like that, she would have thought that was really cool. And then, you know, the shop and the store and you know, just some of the things that we've been able to do, you know, with, again, the podcast and things like that. You know, and it is it's those moments you're like, damn, that would have been a cool thing to share and that sort of thing. Cathy said the same thing, you know, but yeah, it just, you know, again, those things, it is what it is, but yeah, those are those, I don't know, like, you know, those awe moments, I guess, if you wanna.

Mike (01:04:42.894)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:04:51.608)
Right?

Mike (01:04:56.398)
Mm hmm. Right.

Bill (01:05:07.397)
want to put it that way, you know, just like, okay, you know, well, that kind of sucks.

Mike (01:05:09.934)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, right. I mean, going back for Easter, going back for Thanksgiving, you know, this year. Yeah, you know, it's like, ah, shit, she's not gonna be there. God damn it. That sucks. Yeah.

Bill (01:05:27.745)
Right? Well, there was, there was one time, and it was shortly after, shortly after mom died, a couple of months probably, I went to the, I went to Kohl's and I bought something. I think it was Kohl's, I don't know. And, you know, I got like, I seriously got like this really good deal on it, and I was telling Kathy about whatever it was. And I said, I said, yeah, I said it was, you know, $21 and it was like 2134 or something like that.

Mike (01:05:40.811)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:05:51.95)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:05:57.357)
She's like, ooh, tax out the door. And I said, what? Because I knew what she was doing. I was fucking with her. And she's like, that's what mom used to say. I said, she never said, she just said out the door. She's like, no, she said tax out the door. And I said, well, you know what? I said, you can't argue with me because you have no one to prove it. And she's like, ooh, ooh. And I'm like, yeah, you can't argue with me. You got nobody to back you up.

Mike (01:06:01.39)
Hehehehe

Mike (01:06:05.799)
Uh huh.

Mike (01:06:18.586)
Hehehehehehehehe Yeah Hehehehehehe

Mike (01:06:27.694)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Bill (01:06:28.617)
Which again, I said it at the right time, we had a good laugh on it, but you know, it's just one of those things where again, she would have appreciated that joke. But I don't know, I mean, it's been, again, it kind of, all this stuff is what it is. We're not the only ones that have ever dealt with, you know, a death in sobriety or otherwise. But I don't know, you know, I'm listening back.

Mike (01:06:32.681)
Mmhmm.

Mike (01:06:38.135)
Of course. Dress.

Mike (01:06:51.854)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:06:55.026)
And that's, that's kind of a nice thing too. We're not alone. You know, all these other people have gone through it too. And we've got the people to lean on and, you know, we've got each other clearly and all that stuff, but yeah, you know, I mean, uh, lots of people reached out to us from our group and, you know, Hey man, thinking about you, whatever, just again, knowing that we're not alone is, was hugely helpful. Was to me, which is very strange, but.

You know, being the loner and isolator that I am, but it was, it was very nice to have all those people knowing, just knowing that they're there, you know, nobody's nobody dropped off a casserole or anything and that's fine. I didn't need a casserole, but, uh, but I also know that if I've said, Hey man, I need a fucking casserole, I'd have probably got 12 of them. Yup.

Bill (01:07:36.046)
Hahaha, great.

Bill (01:07:42.393)
Right? Yeah. Well, I mean, think about, you know, when we were out at, you know, Chippewa Lake, you know, Kathy, well, I mean, our friend, but Kathy's, mainly Kathy's friend, you know, Helen and her husband brought down a meal for us. Our whole sober poker group, you know, got the, you know, the ham and the turkey and the fixins, I think we had said. And, you know, they, people took care of us from a food standpoint. We were there for, you know, three days, you know. But, but yeah, it was just, it...

Mike (01:07:51.091)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (01:07:55.312)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:07:59.562)
Right? Yeah.

Mike (01:08:04.758)
They did. Absolutely. Yep.

Bill (01:08:10.317)
Everyone, like you said, people reaching out, and I did, I saw on Facebook, the couple of posts that I had done, when we announced obviously that she had passed and then all the people had reached out. I didn't look back at the Instagram post, but I remember it was just, it was a crazy flood of people, and people that we don't know. We don't know, we know from Instagram, we know from Facebook, these are not in real life friends.

Mike (01:08:17.678)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:08:27.725)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:08:36.572)
Right?

Bill (01:08:38.569)
It's just people just reaching out. But that's the thing. And I hope if anyone that's listening to us or has been listening to us, you know, for any amount of time or just now, here's the cool part about this whole recovery community, sober community, whether it's AA or otherwise, people are always there for you. Like you said it a minute ago, Mike. You know, I have people to lean on, you know, and people that are there for you. It's, I've never had that before I got sober.

Mike (01:08:57.294)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:09:02.816)
Eh?

Bill (01:09:06.849)
And I had, you know, close family and stuff like that. You get friends around you, but I've never had the sort of outpouring of help and comfort and all those different things that, you know, that sober people bring, you know, to the table. It's, oh, it's crazy. It's crazy, you know? And if anyone does want to listen back, and I know we played all the clips from it, but it was episode 37, that's the one that we had actually talked mainly about when our mom died.

Mike (01:09:10.647)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:09:20.278)
Yeah, yeah. The love. Yeah. Hehehehehehe.

Bill (01:09:36.917)
an episode that both of us are, I think it's fair enough to say that both of us are proud of that episode and the fact that we were able to talk about it. And even the next one, episode 38, after we got back from the funeral, both of those, that one's not completely all about mom, but good wrap up. You know, but it's just us talking about, literally, openly talking about everything that we did and how we got through that time.

Mike (01:09:37.467)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:09:45.039)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:09:54.518)
Mm hmm. Right.

Bill (01:10:05.549)
You know, and I think that's important because if people, especially in early sobriety, haven't been through that, you know, there's a ton of things that we had never gone through before, then once we do, we reach out, listen to somebody else. And, you know, so we just happen.

Mike (01:10:06.603)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:10:16.181)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:10:20.626)
Absolutely. Well, and it was, I mean, we had the discussion, you know, it was like, are we doing an episode this week? And it was like, well, yeah, we are because that's what we do. Did we do our meditation that day? You know, the following day, of course we did. Do we do our prayers? Yes. Do we do all the things that we do? Well, then we're doing a fucking episode because it's part of what we do to do this thing. And so we did, you know, and again, like you said, we're pretty fucking proud of it because it was, um,

It was, you know, it's, it wasn't us, uh, you know, yammering and talking about hand jobs, it was, uh, it was, it was us being, um, about as raw and honest as we can be. Yeah.

Bill (01:10:52.713)
Hahaha!

Bill (01:11:01.402)
Right? Yeah.

And, you know, it was funny just out of curiosity. And again, the other day, I forget why I even thought about it. Probably when, it was probably on that day or the day after when I saw the post on Facebook, I looked back at, we talked about recording an episode the day she died. It was that night. It was actually that Sunday, you know, because I looked back and we had texted back and forth about something and the conversation was brought up. And yeah, so we talked about it that day. You know, it was just like an immediate thing. Are we doing this thing? And.

Mike (01:11:22.614)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mike (01:11:33.71)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:11:35.081)
Which again, I think was hugely important that, you know, we kept our focus because that's another, you know, kind of testament to this whole program. You said it a thousand times, probably certainly more than I have, that this thing is, this is what we do, this is part of our recovery, this is this thing right now. And once again, if there's nobody out there listening or if people.

you know, stop listening completely. Yeah. After a minute or two, you know, a couple of episodes, if we get four people listening, we might be like, you know, we can talk on the fucking phone if we feel like it, which we won't, you know? So, so then, then we'll drop this cause then it's, it'd be kind of an ego shot, but, um,

Mike (01:12:00.302)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:12:04.174)
Hehehe

Mike (01:12:07.422)
Right. No, of course not.

Mike (01:12:14.21)
Yeah, I don't know, man. There's four people still listening. I think we'd probably still do it. There's one person outside of, you know, there's one person that's like, you know, not Kathy and not Chris and not Amber and, you know, yeah, you know, there's that one stranger out there in the wilderness, out in the darkness, listening to us, we're still going to do it because what the fuck, man? It's not ego.

Bill (01:12:25.558)
Hehehe

Right.

Bill (01:12:37.837)
God damn it. Okay, yeah. Right.

Mike (01:12:41.094)
It's it's there's that one person if they fucking need us to do this nonsense, then we're going to fucking do it for them

Bill (01:12:47.733)
Yeah, see, well, there's another example, boys and girls, where my head's at, or heads at, I just said earlier in this episode, I'm a fucking egotist, I said ego shot, and he's like, no. So this is, again, 13 and a half years and almost another month on top of that, then I just got schooled by my friend Mike, which I need, I really do, so okay. So in other words, you fuckers keep listening, then we're gonna keep on talking, how's that? Right, right, yeah.

Mike (01:12:56.503)
Hehehehehehehehe

Mike (01:13:02.274)
Hmm. Hehehehehe.

Mike (01:13:09.014)
Yeah? Heheheheh

Mike (01:13:14.75)
Yep, at least one of you fuckers.

Bill (01:13:17.229)
One of you a-holes has to continue to listen. So anything else about the mom stuff? I mean, I kind of get all my thoughts out, I think. But OK. Right.

Mike (01:13:21.122)
That's right.

Mike (01:13:28.31)
Yeah, yeah, me too. Me too. You know, miss her, love her. You know, she's still around cause she's still in our thoughts. That's, yeah. That's it.

Bill (01:13:39.405)
Right. Yeah. And that's why I put in our post. I mean, she lives on through, you know, thankfully through this podcast, because same thing, we were able to do that episode. So let's talk briefly about, we're getting close on, not close on time, but I mean, we've been running for a minute. But so the Matthew Perry stuff, and we talked obviously a little bit, but I want to read something because I think

Mike (01:13:46.734)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:14:02.077)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:14:07.233)
I think everyone knows, I mean, he was clearly a public figure and his addiction and his problems with alcohol and drugs and all that stuff I think was pretty public. So I don't want to say everyone knows about it, but yeah, he was clearly one of us and openly, openly one of us. So this is what, let me start off to begin with. From what I understand, he drowned, that's what they think. And I've heard something about cardiac arrest.

Mike (01:14:12.718)
Sure.

Mike (01:14:16.498)
Mm-hmm. Right?

Mike (01:14:25.521)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:14:34.038)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Bill (01:14:36.781)
So he might've had some sort of cardiac incident, went underwater and drowned. Now, I just heard the other day, cause they had it on the radio, they said they tested for fentanyl and meth. That was the initial thing, not in his system, and could take four to six months for the rest. Okay. But then I didn't know, I know he's been back and forth with his sobriety, but apparently again, some article popped up that I saw that I guess the rest of the cast from Friends had said that

Mike (01:14:42.72)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:14:49.526)
Uh huh. Right.

Mike (01:14:59.972)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:15:05.869)
It seems like for the last couple of years that he was sober, but doesn't mean he didn't relapse or whatever happened. But let's get to that in a minute. So this is from just again, some article that popped up and this actually just popped up the other day. Matthew Perry said that when he died, he hoped people would remember him for his work, his work, helping people with addiction rather than for being on the hit TV show Friends. In an interview with podcaster Tom Power in 2022, he reflected on his life.

Mike (01:15:11.854)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:15:35.949)
the mirage of frame, mirage of fame and his intense struggle with addiction. The best thing about me, this was a quote from him, bar none, is that if somebody comes to me and says I can't stop drinking, can you help me? I could say yes and follow up and do that. Then he said, this is the piece that I saw, a snippet of it, then saw this, this entire article. He said, when I die, I don't want friends to be the first thing that's mentioned. I want the first thing that's uh,

Mike (01:15:45.997)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:15:58.638)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:16:05.033)
I want that to be the first thing that's mentioned, that I'm gonna live the rest of my life proving that. That's it, help him trying to help people. Talked about this Dictionary of the Obeids, blah, blah. But at last part of the article says, I can't describe it, something spiritual, it fills your heart. If you see the lights coming up, or coming on for a new person who didn't understand. So he's talking about obviously helping people. So to begin with, and I saw in Kimmy had sent me this thing.

you know, that's the part about, you know, how we wanted to be remembered. And then of course, all you're seeing, you know, it's all about friends and all that stuff. And that's just what people are going to talk about. But here's the thing. So I had just heard, it was literally today when I read the article that said that, you know, it seemed like he might have been sober for the last couple of years. I don't know, right, wrong, or different. But again, easily could have relapsed. But.

Mike (01:16:37.58)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:16:59.109)
The other thing that this other article that I read, I guess in this memoir that he had, there's an audio book that I actually might listen to. That it's on Audible and I think I can get it. I probably just almost given it away now so people can listen to it. But he said that he spent like over $9 million on his recovery over the years, I'm sure again, all these nice facilities, but also said in there that.

Mike (01:17:06.111)
Uh-huh.

Mike (01:17:23.902)
Uh huh. Right.

Bill (01:17:27.625)
close to almost half his life, you know, in these institutions and recovery programs and this and that, you know, and again, you know, said that he shouldn't be alive, you know, but also there was all these other different things, like all these other different health issues he had, all these medical things he had, you know, it sounded like obviously from all the, you know, alcohol and drugs and stuff like that. So my point is, is that one of two things, at least in my opinion, if I got to remind everyone I'm not a doctor,

Mike (01:17:41.229)
Uh-huh.

Mike (01:17:50.911)
Uh-huh.

Bill (01:17:57.337)
You know? But he might have relapsed, and he could have been doing a bunch of coke, and his fucking heart exploded. That's a heart incident or a cardiac incident. He could have relapsed and been fucking loaded and passed out and drowned. That could have happened. Or just from all the damage he did over the years, he could have had a heart attack at 54. It's not normal for your everyday person to have a heart attack at 54. But the unfortunate part is that he

Mike (01:18:07.702)
Mm. Right.

Mike (01:18:14.478)
Mm-hmm. Bye.

Mike (01:18:22.314)
Right? Huh.

Bill (01:18:27.381)
Unless I'll be shocked if I, if, if we hear something differently, that this didn't have something to do with his alcohol and drug abuse, you know? Correct. Right.

Mike (01:18:36.702)
Of course. Yeah. Directly or indirectly. Of course it did. Yeah. Right. Normal regular people don't drop dead at 54. Yeah. Especially people with a lot of money. It just doesn't happen. Right. Yeah. You know, um, right. Uh, I've seen several articles, um, online and stuff too. Um, you know, one of them, one of them, the one that stuck out to me and bothered me the most.

Bill (01:18:43.886)
Right? Right.

Mike (01:19:05.55)
was, um, he, he was talking about helping people and, you know, I guess he had, he bought and, uh, you know, um, funded a, uh, sober house in, I think Santa Monica or something, someplace down there in LA, um, and all that stuff. And he was, the quote was, and I'm going to paraphrase it, but he said, basically, um, look, if you need help and he kind of, you kind of touched it on the quote, you said, you know, if you need help.

I can help you. I know how to do that. I could, you know, I have the knowledge to do that. And then the second part of what I read quote from him was, um, I couldn't, I can't always, you know, apply it to myself again, paraphrasing wildly, but, um, you know, I can help you. I have the knowledge. I know how this thing works. I can't always apply it to myself. And I was like, okay.

Well, yeah, shit, I have the knowledge too, but if I'm not working it, I can't fucking help anybody else, you know? I mean, if I've got a lot of money, I can, I can run sober house and I can, you know, have a place for people and yes, that is helpful beds are helpful. Um, but if it's coming, if it's coming, if it's not coming from a place of honesty and experience, then it's fucking worthless. It always was for me.

You know, I remember I was in a Salvation Army facility out in California and the main counselor there was not one of us and he absolutely did not help me. He was also a fat tub of lard and I went, why are you giving me advice on how to fucking live my life? You're not a fucking drug addict, you're not an alcoholic and you're a fat piece of shit. And.

Bill (01:20:45.209)
Hahaha!

Mike (01:20:55.282)
So anything he said to me had absolutely no effect on me. But when someone is working the program, like the men that helped us and showed us how to do this, were working a program, yes, they had the knowledge, but they also had the experience and they were also doing it right in front of my fucking face. That's what works. Yeah, so that.

Bill (01:21:18.093)
Right.

Mike (01:21:22.41)
You know, it's actually nothing to do with Matthew Perry other than that quote bothered me. I have the knowledge and I can't always apply it to myself. Fuck you. Well then you don't have the fucking knowledge.

Bill (01:21:34.687)
Right. Well, and that's, you know, I wonder if, you know, think about the number of people, and I'm just, I'm not trying to really play a devil's advocate here. I'm just kind of an afterthought, but think about the number of people that we know in Darrell. You know, our friend Darrell pops into my head where, you know, he knew what to do, but he couldn't accept, you know, step one. So, you know, maybe that was the way it was meant. But I agree with you, though, that.

Mike (01:21:44.47)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:21:51.246)
Mm-hmm Right

Bill (01:21:59.149)
You know, maybe his, I don't know that well, but then again, yeah. And I think it was, I want to say Hank Isario, he's sober, isn't he? I think I saw, okay. I think there was the quote from him in one of the, one of the articles that I read that said that, you know, and I guess Frank, Frank Isario is like 17 years sober and he said, when he goes, when I got sober, he goes, you know, he goes, you know, Matt's the one that took me to a meeting and he's the one.

Mike (01:22:03.626)
And Darrell's dead too.

Mike (01:22:11.539)
I believe so. Yeah.

Bill (01:22:26.725)
He's the reason that I ended up even, I have this opportunity. So maybe he's the guy that, like you said, he's got the money, he's got the house. And that was in that too, it's the, I think it's the Perry house or whatever they call it. But it's like one of his previous homes, that he bought a new house and left that one. And they made it into a sober house. So maybe it is along the lines where, do as I say, not as I do, which again, that didn't certainly didn't, in the long run probably, well, wouldn't have helped him.

Mike (01:22:27.598)
Uh-huh.

Mike (01:22:32.11)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:22:41.847)
Okay.

Uh huh.

Bill (01:22:56.557)
You know, the do as I say, not as I do is not going to work in this thing, you know. But here's the other thought that I had, and it kind of has a happy ending to it, because I was, I don't want to say I was getting mad about it, but I was, one of the things I wanted to talk about was that the whole point of celebrities dying and stuff like that, and I've heard people say over the years when celebrities die, they're like.

Mike (01:22:58.379)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:23:02.222)
All right, now, absolutely.

Bill (01:23:25.861)
Does anyone realize that there's millions of people out there, thousands and thousands and thousands, if not millions of people out there, struggling and just because, you know, and I'm not talking about Matthew Perry in particular, any, any one of celebrity status that, that dies of alcohol or drug use or drug abuse, you know, that's all this, you know, Ooh, this and that, and all these things and knowledge comes out and blah, blah. But what about all these other people, you know? And in my answer to that, it's, it's not Matthew Perry's fault. It's not the, the other,

Mike (01:23:41.294)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:23:50.538)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Bill (01:23:55.641)
millionaires that are dying, it's fucking everyone else. Okay? And so this is your wake up call if you're out there and you're listening and you're like, why all these other whatever, this celebrity. Well, rather than worry about some dude and again, not taking anything away from Matthew Perry or anyone else, but this millionaire or these millionaires, these celebrities give every one of us an opportunity to look downward and say, okay,

Mike (01:23:58.482)
Right. Yeah.

Bill (01:24:25.369)
This is a problem, so why don't you help out some group? And this one guy died, but yeah, there's thousands of us. We know hundreds of people. It's a problem. The only reason it's even making the news is because he's a celebrity. He's Matthew Perry and all these other people, which again, I'm not taking away from them as an individual. They're still a human being and it's a loss and all the sort of things. But one thing that we've always talked about, no bad examples, right? And...

Mike (01:24:35.542)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Mike (01:24:54.508)
Right.

Bill (01:24:55.137)
And if anyone hopefully don't, well, I don't know, I was going to say hopefully people don't take it wrong, but you're going to take it how you're going to take it. We were taught that every example is an example that could be used, you know, and either what we can do, what we should do, or what we can't do, what we should not do. That's it, you know. You know, and like you just said, all these men, you know, and all these people that guided us, that's what we should do.

Mike (01:25:07.214)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:25:13.43)
Yep, absolutely. Yep.

Bill (01:25:20.185)
The people who can't seem to get it, the Daryls of the world and stuff like that, who we love to death. He was a good friend of ours, you know, but I sure as fuck wasn't going to follow him on this path because he wasn't he wasn't doing the right things, you know. So you can't bring back Matthew Perry, you can't bring back any of these other celebrities. But here's what you can do is give to somebody, you know, and rather than what was irritating me is that, you know, that this that this guy, you know, literally says, when I die, this is what I want.

Mike (01:25:26.142)
Right. Yep.

Mike (01:25:30.988)
Uh-uh.

Bill (01:25:50.273)
And it seemed like everyone's doing the opposite, which it is what it is. But here's the thing. And this popped up, I was going to do a Google search on something. And I see Matthew Perry foundation started. I'm like, wait, what? So literally today, um, some group, whoever they were, um, there's a website up there. It's called the Matthew, Matthew Perry foundation.org, I believe. And it is, it said following his wishes, this is what we're doing. So I was like, there we go. Happy ending.

Mike (01:25:51.502)
Mm-hmm. Of course, right.

Mike (01:26:03.598)
Hehehehe

Bill (01:26:19.745)
Okay. So if you want to give to a foundation, you know, and you're a huge Matthew Perry fan, we have no affiliation whatsoever with this fucking thing. Literally was just started up today and it, no, it wasn't us. But it's, I believe it's matthewperry.org or Matthew Perry foundation, whatever it is, Google Matthew Perry foundation. You'll find it or you know what? And please, I'm not trying to plug for once, not nothing through our website, but hazel.

Mike (01:26:21.495)
Yeah?

Mike (01:26:31.606)
Right. Mm. Hehehehehehehehehehe.

Mike (01:26:42.606)
Death. Right.

Bill (01:26:48.793)
The Hazelden Foundation, Betty Ford Hazelden Foundation. I don't give a shit if you do it through our website link or not, go to Betty Ford Hazelden Foundation. They help thousands if not millions of people all over the world, help people like that. We've got the Keating, yep, we've got the Keating Center. Ha ha ha.

Mike (01:26:49.222)
Mm. Yep.

Mike (01:27:04.338)
And there's the Ed Keating center here in Cleveland, you know, Google your local. You know, if wherever you are in the world, guess what? There's fucking recovery program happening somewhere near you. Google that shit. Find them, be a part of the solution. Don't be, don't be, well, don't be part of the problem, but even worse, don't be apathetic and just, oh, it's somebody else's problem. No, cause it touches all of us. It touches all of us.

Bill (01:27:27.993)
Yep. Yeah. And somebody, and you said the exact words, local, anyone, there is, there's always, always a group out there. And regardless of who you believe in, what you believe in, what your background is, anything like that, you will find a group that fits well with you and give them a couple of bucks. And seriously, it doesn't have to be much, you know. You know, we used to do, and it was after, well, we, I'm,

Mike (01:27:39.651)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:27:47.702)
Yeah, right.

Bill (01:27:55.125)
I say we as a family what we started to do afterwards, but our family, the first year that we got sober, rather than we used to do a $25 gift exchange, which over the years got to be pointless because basically it just, people had so much trouble trying to find gifts. It would have been better sitting down into the room and just everyone handing each other 25 bucks and surrounding, you know, back and forth and gone on with their lives. But you know, it was this gift exchange. It's got to be a pain in the ass.

Mike (01:27:59.295)
Mm.

Mike (01:28:12.395)
Hehehehe

Mike (01:28:19.03)
Right. Hehehehehehehehe

Bill (01:28:24.969)
So our family did it on their own. I had no idea they were gonna do it that year, but every one of them took, you know, that rather than do the gift exchange, they all put at least 25 bucks, if not more, and gave all that money to the Keating Center, you know, that first year, which, I mean, it touches me now, you know, but at the time I was just like, damn, that's kind of cool, you know? But I mean, it means more to me now than it did then, I think, but it just, it kind of blew my mind back then.

Mike (01:28:50.198)
Right? Of course.

Bill (01:28:52.881)
But we did that for a couple years. Kathy, I know for a fact, donates to the Keating Center every year, you know? But the, yeah, oh, absolutely, absolutely. So the...

Mike (01:28:57.758)
Uh huh. Right, I know mom did.

No, yeah. Yeah. Like on her own did cause you know, yeah. I talked to Marty about it. Yep. Yeah. She sent money every year.

Bill (01:29:09.261)
Right. But the whole, right. But the whole point with all of this stuff is that, I mean, again, this has really nothing to do with Matthew Perry, it's just a catalyst for a conversation. But everyone can help, and everyone, even if you're listening to this and you happen to be one of the normies that's listening to us, you're probably listening to us because you know somebody like us. And.

Mike (01:29:23.554)
Sure, absolutely.

Mike (01:29:27.694)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:29:37.815)
Right?

Bill (01:29:37.905)
I hope to God they're sober and I hope to God they're doing well, but I know for a fact that they know somebody that's not doing well or you may. So just, again, help somebody. That's all you're going to do. It's not going to stop the Matthew Perrys of this world from dying necessarily, but it's going to help somebody. It's not going to eradicate the disease, but it sure as fuck is going to help.

Mike (01:29:41.89)
This is...

Mike (01:30:00.214)
Yeah, it is. It's going to give one of us the opportunity to have a shot at this thing, which is all anybody can do. You know, have a bed available for them, have a roof over the head over that bed. So they have a place to go get a meal, have a chance to start working this thing, which is all we had. It's all that's all the Keating Center did for us. They gave us a bed. They gave us some old chicken and they said, go to AA. And then it was up to us.

Bill (01:30:25.073)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Mike (01:30:29.663)
And hey, guess what? That fucking worked.

Bill (01:30:31.061)
Right. Yeah. And still, and I know we've said it, we keep saying it, but there's at least, I mean, there's 10 of us, I know for a fact that at least 10, you know, from that timeframe that had been sober, the, you know, between April of 2010 to November of 2010. So within that, that 13 year period there, you know, there's, there's 10 of us, 10 of us guys that stayed sober, you know, and if we, if we want to talk statistics, which I don't.

Mike (01:30:39.606)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:30:53.314)
Yeah? Yup.

Bill (01:30:56.569)
You know, but there was probably 40 guys in there at that time. There could have been 70 or 80, you know, in that, in that six month period. Seven month period. Yeah.

Mike (01:31:00.866)
Sure. Oh, that month probably 150. Seriously, you think Geisa came in for a week and yeah, yeah. Probably a solid 150, maybe even 200. Yep.

Bill (01:31:16.013)
Right. But yeah, and we will, and there could be more of us, you know, more, more people that stayed sober that we just didn't know, you know, but, um, you know, we had a core group of people, you know, that stayed sober. So the thing of it is, is all the shit works, you know, if, if we do the work, um, you know, but it, we need to be able to, we need help. And, um, you know, it's that that's what a little bit of money helps with. And, uh, you know, again, I don't think that it's, it's not going to get eradicated, but it's, it could get, it could get.

Mike (01:31:23.146)
Yeah, right.

Yeah.

Bill (01:31:45.966)
Lesson?

Mike (01:31:48.678)
Exactly. Right. The more people that have the opportunity to work this thing, the better it's going to be. That's all it is. Yeah. Of course it's not going to go away. It's human nature. People want to get fucked up and the disease is a disease. You know, it's not polio where you can get a vaccine and it goes away. You know, it takes work. It takes like Bob used to say all the time. It's an inside job.

You know, we've got to do the work internally to make this thing work. But if we do that, it does work.

Bill (01:32:21.165)
Right? Yeah. It works if you work it, I heard. And you're worth it.

Mike (01:32:25.73)
I've heard that somewhere too. Hehehehe. So work it. Hehehehehehe.

Bill (01:32:32.602)
Yeah, that's just to get anyone who's never been to a 12-step meeting, that's a weird little cadence at the end. You know, a lot of people have probably seen it on TV shows. That's where I see it more so. TV shows and...

Mike (01:32:43.926)
No, sure. No, yeah. Well, Christ, when I was out in California, when I first got exposed to this shit. Oh yeah. That was, you know, they'd fucking chant that it works if you work. It's a work it cause you're worth it.

Bill (01:32:56.117)
Yeah, they did that a little bit in Wisconsin too. Well, you went, again, you went to a couple of meetings with me in Wisconsin and it was, you know, no offense to it, but it wasn't necessarily our complete deal. I liked the meetings there, but they were soft, you know. And I'm not saying that I couldn't have gotten sober there, but I'm glad that we, you know, had that opportunity to get dealt with, you know, and handled by, you know, the Bobs and the Bavars of the world.

Mike (01:33:17.463)
Hehehehehehehe

Mike (01:33:23.582)
Yes, exactly. Firm but fair. Yes, he was.

Bill (01:33:26.421)
Right, yeah, fucking elephant. That elephant was firm but fair and funny. God, that was hilarious. But okay, so anything more on, I mean, I think we did the everything on, and like I said, I, no, go ahead.

Mike (01:33:42.498)
Yeah, exactly. You know, if you're, if you're out there, you're, you're bemoaning the fact that, you know, yeah, it's a fucking disease. It doesn't matter who you are, what you do or whatever. If you got it, it's going to fucking kill you. If you don't do something about it. So, uh, you know, if you want to help, you know, give to somebody that's helping other people. Cause you personally can't do a goddamn thing about it.

Bill (01:34:09.221)
Right. Yeah, and that was the main thing. I was trying to figure out a way to, you know, again, to talk about those things I wanted to say about this whole Matthew Perry thing, but I wasn't trying to shit on his grave. And then again, I wasn't trying to make it a, you know, I wasn't trying to do what everyone else was fucking doing. I didn't want to talk about, you know, I want to talk about his stardom. And I wanted to, you know, old celebrity. Yeah, really. Yeah. Amanda.

Mike (01:34:20.155)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mike (01:34:29.298)
No, no, we talked about the hot chicks on the show. As we discussed friends, you got one you like. I got one. I like. Yup.

Bill (01:34:38.937)
Right, yeah, exactly. Courtney Cox, Jennifer Aniston, and then of course, we're both on board with Amanda Peet, right? Yeah, she is. Look at that. Ha ha ha.

Mike (01:34:46.454)
Exactly. See? Look at that. You know, and I'd like Kujo do stuff to me. It'd be fine.

Bill (01:34:54.017)
You know what, she seriously, she kind of annoyed me on the show, but she was in Analyze This with Billy Crystal and Robert De Niro and stuff. She was actually kind of funny in that, but she was in a couple of other things too. Oh, I was watching, did you ever watch, you probably never watched Band of Brothers, did you? Because that's the HBO thing. So David Schwimmer has a partner. He's kind of a real, I don't know, dick of a...

Mike (01:35:15.754)
Nope.

Bill (01:35:22.193)
brain dead kind of officer type of thing in there but yeah but it was just kind of funny I didn't realize that he was in it then he comes in and he's just like that kind of you know this like drill sergeant type of thing and it just kind of blew my mind but he's yeah nobody wanted to serve with him or anything long story but I was like it was it was interesting totally different character of course than you know obviously is fucking Ross on friends character but

Mike (01:35:25.883)
Ah, so he's typecasting.

Hehehehe

Bill (01:35:50.829)
Yeah, I know. Anyhow. So, all right. I think we've, uh, I think we've taken care of all of our, all of our duties for the evening. So we all good? No, he said duty. Um, have we said penis yet? Penis there. Just the way you said that too. All right. You know what? On that note, uh, let's, let's get, let's get the fuck out of here. It's your turn.

Mike (01:35:51.106)
Whatever.

Hehehehehehe

Mike (01:35:58.768)
Alright, you said duty.

Mike (01:36:03.554)
That's right.

penis. Vagina.

Mike (01:36:13.518)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Yup. All right. Well, thank you everyone for listening to another episode of sober, not mature as always be kind to each other. Be good to each other. Go out and do something nice for somebody else this week. Don't tell anybody about it. And now it is time. It is time kids for you to fuck off. Then keep fucking off. Keep fucking off till you get to a gate with a sign on it saying, you cannot fuck off past year.

Climb over that gate, dream the impossible dream, and keep fucking off forever.

Bill (01:36:54.322)
You were like very excited through that too. You're like, I know, I know. Yeah, well, you said that a couple of weeks ago and I kind of caught on to that. Why you get so boisterous when you're doing that because it gets us out of here. So all right, I got nothing else. You already said, yeah, we're done. I love you brother and I'll talk to you soon. Bye.

Mike (01:36:59.306)
You know what? Cause we're fucking done.

Mike (01:37:08.719)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:37:15.05)
Yeah, that's it, man. We're done. I love you too. You will. Bye.