SoberNotMature - Episode 94 (Mara S

Transcript

Bill (00:03.252)
All right, everyone. Welcome once again to another episode of Sober, Not Mature. And this week, yes, we have a guest. Guess who? Has anyone been paying attention? It's Mara, our really, really good friend from Cleveland. So you got two really, reallys in there, Mara. So I know, yeah, she's... Yeah, you are a deuce. That's for damn sure. You walked into that one. But...

Mike (00:19.922)
Ooh, it's a lot to live up to.

Mara (00:20.483)
Oh, wow. I know, right? The deuces.

Mara (00:30.507)
I did.

Bill (00:30.532)
So real quick, just introduce yourself, name where you're from, just a real quick intro and then we'll get started, okay?

Mara (00:37.65)
sure. My name is Mara Sankin and I'm from Cleveland. Is that all you wanted to know?

Bill (00:43.752)
All right. Yes, you know, it's funny. Sometimes people will go on for like five minutes and other people go on for five seconds. So I never know what to expect. So that was of the five second variety. But no, seriously, I know we've had a handful of other people on from Cleveland. So you're just another one and hopefully a long list of friends that we've had on from the Cleveland area. And it's always fun. It's fun to have people on because Cleveland is obviously

Mara (00:52.362)
Oh no, no need.

Bill (01:14.288)
where both of us got sober. So it's cool. It's always cool having. Yeah.

Mike (01:17.186)
And we're all here.

Mara (01:18.666)
Here we are still after all these years.

Mike (01:21.988)
Right.

Bill (01:22.116)
Yeah, we're yeah, I'm actually in Cleveland this weekend. Not something we really need to have to we need to talk about right now. Maybe we will at some point, maybe we won't. But I am in Cleveland. I'm in Mike's right now. So I thought about that. It's probably not even someone need to mention at this point. But yes, we're all Mike and I are in the same roof. But yeah, this I don't think have we ever. Yeah.

Mara (01:30.177)
Yeah.

Mike (01:41.858)
Right. And Mars, like a mile away.

Mara (01:44.767)
I know, I could come over, I should just have come over there, you can stick me in the basement.

Mike (01:49.85)
Right.

Bill (01:49.956)
I was just going to ask you, with the lotion and the basket, we got a hole down there for you too. Do you want to come over afterwards? We'll put you in the hole. I know. That's why I wanted to get your reaction. Okay. Mike, save me here before I say something else stupid. Mike, I said. All right. So.

Mara (01:56.182)
I'm sure you guys have all the lotion. Don't act like you're gonna share that lotion.

Mara (02:03.943)
Oh, that's so loaded.

Mara (02:13.626)
Yeah, help, help your boy.

Mike (02:15.283)
I'm not that powerful.

Bill (02:19.664)
I'm going to, I'll say something stupid later, but for now, Mike, let her know how this whole thing runs.

Mike (02:25.122)
Alright, well, you know, she's a Cleveland person, so we don't have to go too deep into it. But basically, we know how to get fucked up. We know how to fuck up our lives and the lives of everyone around us. We don't care about that. We care about the solution, but we do want a little background because we know you, but most of the people listening don't. So, you know, tell a little bit about yourself, what it was like, all that happy crap. And yeah, then we'll move along.

Mara (02:53.727)
Okay, well, I am. Well, in September, I celebrated nine years of sobriety. September 17th, thank you, which is wild. And thank you, super, super. I get the two. So, you know, I like to, the reason why I'm so proud of this nine years, I guess, is because I originally got sober when I was 18.

Mike (03:01.319)
Yay!

Bill (03:04.764)
Super yay.

Mike (03:07.538)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Mara (03:18.022)
in 1994. So my original sobriety date was December 28th of 1994. I was 18 years old. It was four days after my 18th birthday. And I actually went without a drink for 17 and a half years and eventually picked back up. So I'm not going to say that I was sober. I was sober off of alcohol for all those years, but I was not working any type of recovery program. I was attending meetings and

going to functions and I was very active in the fellowship, but I had no program in my life. And I really didn't understand the concept of differentiating the two, if that makes sense. I do now. I do now, but I was just, I had a lot of sodriety. I like to say sodriety. I was so dry. Yeah, and just, yeah.

Mike (04:10.131)
Nice

Bill (04:10.312)
Ha ha ha! Hang on one second here. I've never heard that before. How would you spell that? I'm going to write that down. That's going into the scripts. It's so dry... itty.

Mara (04:19.882)
I would say S-O-D-R-I-E-T-Y.

Bill (04:23.88)
So dry, I like that, okay, so just yeah. All right, sorry about that, didn't mean to interrupt that story, but that made me laugh, so dry-ity. Ah, so dry-ity. Ha ha ha. Ha ha.

Mara (04:25.974)
Yeah.

No, you're good. Yeah, that was me all day long. Like I was miserable. Oh my God, so miserable. Like really thinking that I was doing the damn thing and not understanding why I was so fucking miserable. Just, can I say, I could say fuck, it's okay. Oh, okay. Yeah, I was fucking, fucking miserable, dude. Yeah.

Mike (04:34.402)
Mm-hmm, crispy.

Mike (04:48.594)
Mm-hmm. Oh, yes, you can. Fuck yes.

Bill (04:51.492)
Oh god yeah, please. Yeah, fuckin', fuckin' A right. Ha ha ha. Ha ha.

Mara (04:57.514)
Like I was the biggest piece of shit and there literally was not, in that 17 and a half years, there was literally not one job that I left ethically. Every job I was either fired from or just walked away from. Every job I worked, I was dishonest. I can't even conceive of lying about something now. Like it would just eat my spirit away if I lied and knew that I was lying. I lied all the time. I can't tell you how many times I buried my grandma.

Bill (05:24.037)
Right.

Mara (05:27.89)
I had so many grandmas and I, yeah, but I was not drinking or using. So I was just an untreated alcoholic. You know, I spent the first 10 years, well, the first eight years of that 17 in Narcotics Anonymous, which I will never dog another fellowship because they all help people.

Bill (05:29.214)
Hahaha!

Mike (05:29.794)
Right, I had a few too.

Bill (05:32.392)
Hehehe

Mike (05:50.194)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (05:50.586)
So I'm not gonna say that I didn't stay clean in their lingo because of that. I picked up because I was not working a program. So about 14 years in, I went on a cruise to Mexico and got off the boat and immediately made a beeline for the pharmacy and bought some...

somas and something on the boat that the guy said was like Mexican quailudes. And I took them, but came back and still claim sobriety because in my mind, it didn't count because it was Mexico and kept sponsoring women. And then eventually picked up booze and went off the deep end in 2014 or 2012. I'm sorry, 2012. So, you know, I was not 100% um,

Mike (06:21.824)
Mmm.

Mara (06:43.762)
sober all of those years. I did pick up narcotics, but it was Mexico. So it didn't count. It did count. I'm just saying that was my rationale. I had, I was.

Mike (06:50.002)
term. Well, I'm glad it counted because, you know, I'm going to be there in less than a week.

Bill (06:57.864)
Ha ha ha.

Mara (06:57.93)
Oh, good for you. Yeah, I had major back surgery in 2006 and for a brief period of time, two or three days, the doctor prescribed me somas and I didn't abuse them. But in my mind, I felt like, okay, well, I had this unlimited right to take them forever, I guess. I don't know, but it was, that's what not treating your alcoholism will look like in your crazy head, you'll be a liar.

Mike (07:00.174)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (07:18.258)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (07:24.19)
a cheat and a thief and not have a drop of alcohol in your body. So I will tell you that this time around, when I burned my life to the ground in two years, lost everything, went from having a five bedroom house, a career as a drug and alcohol counselor, a husband, a child, pets, all of the things to living at the Jean Marie house, which is basically the female version of the rock where you guys went.

Mike (07:46.162)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (07:46.182)
It's the women's house and which meant that I was homeless because no one would claim me but Katie Patton you know, no one else wanted anything to do with me and You know, my mother didn't want me in the house my family I wasn't allowed to see my daughter My husband was shipped off to live with his mother And my animals had to be euthanized because I wasn't taking care of them and I literally lost everything in a very

Bill (07:51.676)
Hahaha.

Mike (07:52.274)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Mara (08:15.154)
short period of time when I came back in September of 2014. So I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt, I had to do it right this time, or I was gonna be miserable for the rest of my life. Cause I'll tell you one thing that was not happening, I was not dying, which is what I wanted. I was hoping I would shoot some dope and die, but it never had, I just kept waking up. So I decided to work a program and here we are.

Mike (08:30.491)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (08:41.656)
Imagine that, here we are, nine years later, right? So during that, in that first run that you had, and I know you said you weren't working a program, but you were going to meetings, so basically, just a little bit more detail there, kind of like what you would consider maybe filling a seat, but trying to work with people, possibly still, because you were using during that timeframe every once in a while, or just, let me just ask that question.

Mara (08:44.018)
Here we are. Yeah. It's beautiful.

Mara (09:05.466)
No, at the end is when I picked up the pills. And then at the very, very end is when I picked up the booze. So I probably picked up the pills in 2010 and picked up booze in 2012. So from 94 to 2010, no drugs, no alcohol in my body.

Bill (09:09.307)
Okay.

Bill (09:21.592)
Okay. But again, the whole thing with the, with the sobriety, which I still, I don't know why it makes me laugh. That's the coolest, that's, oh, thank you. Though I'm going to use that from now on. That's, that's fucking awesome. But I mean, we've, we've heard about that from, from the start. I mean, I heard about that years ago, you know, from, from my dad long before I ever, you know, had an issue with alcohol. He talked about, you know, dry drunks and people not working a program and all that stuff. And, um, I mean, Mike and I, I mean, you, God, you and I, Mike, we've run across plenty of people that,

Mara (09:26.286)
Hmm, you're welcome. Yeah. Good. Yeah.

Bill (09:50.524)
You know, they've got years under their belt, maybe no substances in their body, but they're fucking miserable, you know? And I'm guessing that Mara, probably that was the same thing. I'm guessing you weren't the happiest person on earth, right?

Mike (09:57.1)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (10:04.058)
Oh, a hundred percent. And I went to so many psychiatrists because I was actually more comfortable getting a psychiatric diagnosis than believing that maybe I just should need to work some steps in my life. Like it had to be depression or anxiety or bipolar disorder or something because isn't there a fucking pill to make this better? Like give me the Prozac and the Selexa and the effectser. And I'm not saying that there aren't people who need those things. I'm definitely not dogging.

Mike (10:15.25)
Hehehehehe

Bill (10:23.932)
Hahaha!

Mike (10:24.026)
Right.

Mike (10:30.341)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (10:32.01)
you know, the need for that for people who do need that. I will tell you that when I was arrested in 2014, my last run, I was on like seven different psych meds. And today I take nothing but vitamins and you know, natural supplements. Cause low and behold, I was never crazy. I was just a dry drunk. You know what I mean? But, uh.

Mike (10:47.89)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (10:53.522)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (10:55.678)
Yeah, I was miserable, and I didn't understand. Like I'd sit in meetings and I would listen, but I wouldn't follow the directives of put pen to paper and work the steps and practice the principles. Because the steps are the same in narcotics anonymous and alcoholics anonymous, so that doesn't change. It's all about doing an inventory, clearing out the records of your past, making amends.

Mike (11:09.788)
Mm-hmm.

That's right.

Mara (11:21.07)
forming a relationship with something higher than me, whatever I choose to call it or utilize. And I could not figure that part out. I couldn't connect the dots. It didn't, it was great that worked for all of you guys, but that is not gonna work for me. I was 18 years old. You know, I was 18, I was confused and all I wanted was a boyfriend and a good job. And I, it was all bad. My poor husband was so sick.

Mike (11:26.311)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (11:35.88)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Mike (11:37.352)
Right.

Sure.

Mara (11:50.034)
We can talk about that later, but yeah, he died. We can talk about that too if you want. We'll talk about anything.

Mike (11:54.066)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Bill (11:54.16)
Oh yeah, absolutely. So with, did you have, again, during that timeframe, again, going to meetings and things like that, did you have a sponsor? Did anyone approach you? Did you just refuse to do it like you said, or just kind of like, you know, in there again, taking up space and I just didn't know if there was like, we've talked to some people and we've met people that, you know, I could do it on my own, I don't need all this stuff. And people, those people usually aren't sitting in meetings. So just kind of curious if you ever were approached by somebody that said,

Hey, I wanna sponsor you or walk you through stuff or how did that work?

Mara (12:24.894)
Yes, I had a sponsor through the entire, I was never sponsor-less. My first sponsor was in NA. She was wonderful. She was my sponsor for a handful of years. Sadly, at 10 years, she went back out. So that's when I left NA and came over to AA. And then I got a sponsor in AA, an amazing woman who I just saw on Monday. Actually, we still love each other. And she sponsored me for the rest of that 17 year period. So.

They, I remember she would say things to me like, I can't help you if you can't be honest. And we'd sit in her car and I was like, what do you mean? Cause the thing is there was nothing she could have done different. It was me that I couldn't get honest with. So I certainly couldn't get honest with her. And I can't, I could never have explained that to Mara then, but now it's crystal clear.

Mike (13:00.175)
Right.

Bill (13:01.02)
Hahaha!

Mike (13:08.335)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (13:19.674)
then I will tell you as sure as I am sitting here in my house, I believed that I was honest and that I was doing my best. You know what I mean? It's denial. Don't even notice I am lying. That's what denial stands for. Don't even notice I am lying. There's another one. I'll give you that one for free too. So that's what denial stood for. Don't even notice I am lying to myself.

Mike (13:27.826)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (13:28.905)
Right.

Mike (13:46.293)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (13:48.095)
No one could have convinced me any different.

Bill (13:53.052)
Well, and I mean, we had talked about that too, because I, and you, like you had mentioned, you used the word delusional a little bit ago. And I know that I was delusional because I didn't realize necessarily that the position that I was in, how bad I was. It was, and this came up during this almost two years that we've been doing this, that there was only one time that I actually questioned, really questioned my drinking, because I hadn't, until we were doing this, I never thought I even questioned myself, but.

You know, all the shit that I was doing and as bad as I was and all those different things. And the same thing with honesty. I never thought it was a big deal, you know, to not tell the complete truth. You know, that wasn't a lie, you know, or telling these whatever these little white lies are or were, which, you know, I mean, a lie is a lie, right? You know, so I was, I was at the same, I think at the same mindset where, you know, I just.

I didn't realize or didn't want to believe that what I was doing was actually lying or was telling myself I wasn't lying. It's ridiculous. And there, there's your cat. Yeah, we were talking right before the recording that, yeah, Mara, no, you're fine. Let her hang around. So yeah, we heard Mara's cat and she's like, oh my God. I'm like, yeah, usually we have dogs in the background, which you don't have tonight. So.

Mara (14:57.962)
Yeah, lies don't come in colors and sizes. She's a, I hate her. I don't hate her, don't, I'm sorry.

Mike (15:15.399)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (15:16.932)
I don't think we've had, have we had a cat meowing in the background since we've been doing this?

Mike (15:20.91)
You know, maybe when Chris was on. Right. I mean, that's, you know, the odds are there was at least one of the little fuckers making some noise.

Bill (15:25.186)
Oh, you know what? Yeah, cuz um, or did-

Mara (15:25.558)
Yeah, right.

Bill (15:32.688)
Yeah, and it was, Melissa tried to get Hercules out of the room and he was just sitting there going, oh, rrrr. Ha ha.

Mara (15:33.065)
UGH!

Mike (15:39.069)
Mm-hmm. Hehehehehehehehe.

Mara (15:39.65)
Well, she just happens to fit, she stands, her name is Alabama. She's named after Alabama Worley from True Romance, a phenomenal Quentin Tarantino film from the 90s. And she just likes to stand at the refrigerator and scream for whipped cream like a fucking crack head, which I created because I will definitely give in to her by the end of the night. So I created this monster. My prince is over here being a gentleman, Winston, the prince.

Mike (16:05.136)
Right.

Mara (16:09.506)
But yeah. God help me.

Mike (16:10.594)
Hmm? Hehehehehehe

Bill (16:12.517)
No, like I said, keep the cats around. No, it's fine. And that's the one thing that, well, in, I don't know if we told you about this, but we don't edit anything because we don't care. And if there's stuff like that in the background, we don't care. We'd rather have the imperfections that people want to call them that. They're funny, right, Mike? I mean, that's what kind of makes us, I don't know, makes us a little bit, I don't want to say unique. That's the wrong way to put it. But I don't think you listen to any...

Mara (16:15.547)
Alright.

Mike (16:31.152)
Yeah.

Bill (16:37.376)
Any other podcasts where he's had some of the shit that's happened in the background of our podcast. So it's fun. It's part of our, it's part of our chart, right, Mike?

Mike (16:44.982)
Right. Cats and heat. All right. Cool. All right. The cats doing whippets right on.

Mara (16:46.518)
Well, good. Now you'll get to hear her getting whipped cream. Here's your whipped cream, asshole.

Bill (16:50.24)
Oh god. Hey, turn your camera on. Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah, Maris spreading whipped cream all over her cat. That could go in a bunch of different directions too. Right. And see, now you're halfway across the room, so we can barely hear you, but that's OK. Where are you? It sounded like you were farther away. Yeah, it's weird. It's weird. Because you got your ear or... Oh, OK.

Mike (17:03.666)
Good.

Mara (17:03.694)
It doesn't count if it's whipped cream. Free laps. Just kidding.

Mara (17:11.574)
You can't hear me? I'm right here.

No, I didn't go anywhere.

Yeah, no, I'm here.

Bill (17:20.432)
But anyhow, so you were when, because you just said you got arrested and that's when you went into the Jean Marie house. So I know there was more about that. You were involved in some other things. So tell us a little bit about that because you have kind of dipped into that a little bit. I personally, I don't know that I've ever heard your whole story, so, but you were involved in something that got you arrested, right?

Mara (17:29.527)
Yes.

Mara (17:43.69)
Well, I mean, what got me arrested was that I was supporting. Yeah, I was supporting my, yeah, I was supporting my hair. Well, I had a husband. I had a husband and I also had a boyfriend. So they knew about each other. Honestly, at the beginning of my sobriety, I thought that I was just this really hot chick that had two dudes, but really, I don't think either of them wanted to fucking deal with me. So they kept pawning me off on each other. But, you know, my husband was wonderful.

Mike (17:46.034)
Crime?

Bill (17:47.505)
Ha ha!

Bill (18:06.024)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Mike (18:07.203)
Mmm.

Mara (18:10.306)
and he loved me to death. He was significantly older than me. He was 15 years older than me and he was very sick, physically sick. And my boyfriend who, you know, karma's hilarious because my boyfriend ended up leaving me for a man. So there you go, Mara, there's your karma. My boyfriend was great and they were both just really good guys, but I was a mess in both of their lives.

Bill (18:25.883)
Ha ha!

Mara (18:35.306)
And I also had a daughter and my husband just didn't want me to leave and take her. So he was like, I don't, I understand our marriage is kind of gone. Um, just don't leave me and take our kids. She's all I have left to live for. Cool. I'm going to hang out with this guy. And that guy is decent as I think he tried to be in his life. He was a heroin addict, um, and a crack addict. And he kind of turned me out on the needle. Um, he, he wouldn't let me use the needle.

but I eventually stole one from him and taught myself how to shoot up. And he taught me how to shoplift and boost to make money. And that's what I was doing that day. I was driving around in my husband's car with my boyfriend and we were shoplifting, waiting in a parking lot for the loss prevention people to leave. Must've just either nodded out or done, I don't know what we were doing, but the car was already full of stuff we had stolen that day. And when we came to...

Mike (19:09.093)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (19:34.442)
um the cops were surrounding us uh about five cops were surrounding the car and car was in my name so all the drugs were mine legally so you know oh i had been a drug and alcohol counselor for eight years in that city where i got arrested so that was the pretty big the biggest humiliation at the time um

Bill (19:45.04)
Wow, okay.

Mike (19:45.702)
Right?

Mike (20:00.431)
Mmm.

Mara (20:01.514)
was getting pulled out of the car by police officers that had known me from the other side of things, right? So I had sat on like opiate task force boards with the judges and the POs of this city. And now here I was getting arrested in that city. It wasn't Cleveland. It was outlying of Cleveland, a different county. So everybody knew who I was. So it was fucking humiliating. None of the probation officers would take me on because they were so.

disgusted with me that they had to bring in a supervising PO just to take my case. Um, cause by the time I got arrested, I was a disgusting street junkie, like not showering, not taking care of myself in any way or shape. So when the cops pulled me out, he was like, you stink. I was like, yeah, well, you'll have that. So it's worth. So yeah, crime and crime and, uh,

Mike (20:49.978)
Mm-hmm. Yes, you will.

Bill (20:53.11)
Hahaha!

Mara (20:58.378)
You know, all the unsavory things is why I got arrested. So, yeah.

Bill (21:02.652)
Didn't you say that you went through some sort of initiation the day before? Did I miss that part or no?

Mara (21:09.142)
What kind of, what do you mean?

Bill (21:10.98)
I thought you said, when you were talking to us, were you involved in any like gang activity or no?

Mara (21:16.338)
No, not like not real gang activity. Uh-uh, no, my fa... No, that wasn't me. Did I? Unless I was making a joke, I'm always saying weird shit. So it might've been.

Bill (21:20.559)
Oh, okay.

Mike (21:26.757)
Right.

Bill (21:26.852)
Well, you know, and that might have been it, because you showed somebody the picture and you said something about you went through an initiation the day before. I think that's when we were at the retreat, but yeah, you might've been messing with somebody, but.

Mara (21:34.605)
Oh.

Probably, yeah, no, well, I mean, I definitely was raised around organized crime, but that wasn't not like gang banging, like, yeah.

Mike (21:45.074)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (21:47.452)
Gotcha.

Mike (21:50.104)
Right.

Bill (21:50.881)
Are you like rolling marbles around in a box or something like that or just... Ha ha ha!

Mara (21:53.074)
No, that's my asshole cat! Jesus Christ, I can't even deal with her. She's slapping a ball around a circle because she knows I'm on the computer. I hate it. No.

Mike (22:02.802)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (22:03.117)
No, it's okay. I was just trying to figure out what it was. It's not as bad as when we had our sister on. I'm sitting there and we're talking and all of a sudden I hear this crinkling and it's crinkling and it's getting louder and louder and continuing. Finally, I'm like, what the fuck are you doing? She was eating caramel corn out of a plastic crinkly bag and she's like, you can hear that? And I'm like, yeah, yeah.

Mara (22:25.982)
Everything, right?

Bill (22:28.08)
But no, it's okay as long as I know what it is. It just, you know, it did, it sounded like marbles, sounded like marbles rolling around in a box. But all right, so you're still the drug and alcohol counselor. You get pulled out of the car.

Mara (22:31.114)
It's a ball.

Mara (22:39.774)
Oh, I know. I remember what I said at the retreat. So my mug shot, I remember it just came to me. My mug shot is so horrible because I was dope sick in jail for almost 48 hours before they finally pulled me out for my mug shot. And my eyes are all deeply sunken in my head. And I said, I look like I had just gotten jumped. I look like I had just gotten jumped into the Latin Kings. I do though. Like I looked like a very angry.

Bill (22:46.739)
Ha ha ha!

Mike (22:54.063)
Mmm.

Bill (23:01.141)
Oh.

Bill (23:04.264)
Ha ha ha!

Mara (23:08.498)
Hispanic woman in my mugshot. So yes, that is that is what everyone says to me all my his

Bill (23:12.913)
Well, and that's probably what I heard, because I think you said that. You looked like all I heard was jumped in Latin Kings the day before or something like that. And I was like, damn, this is going to be a great conversation. So that's why I didn't even. No, you could have. Well, OK, so you can lie about that if you want. Make up a story. Come on, it's a podcast. Ha ha ha.

Mara (23:19.51)
Yes. Oh, sorry, it's not more interesting.

Mike (23:24.242)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Mike (23:30.418)
She just said it would kill her spirit!

Mara (23:30.806)
Well, what about really good friends? I don't know. No, no.

Bill (23:33.292)
I know, I know, just fucking around. But so again, so you get pulled out, you did all that. How long did you spend in jail? Because there had to be a certain amount of time until you got, you know, obviously, were you taken to Jean Marie right away or how did that happen?

Mara (23:48.106)
No, no. So I spent, I was in jail for a week. My mom called everybody in the world who knows me and said, if you go bond her out of jail, I will put a bullet in your head. So my mom's 100% Sicilian or Italian, half Sicilian, half Northern Italian. And my dad was, God rest his soul, the sweetest little Jewish guy who was like, just get the kid out of jail. And my mom's like, absolutely not, leave her in jail.

So nobody came for me. I was in there on a $300 and something bond going through withdrawal. Finally could walk without thinking I was gonna die. And I went in front of the judge and he said, you know, your mom got you a bed at this Jean Marie house. And I was like, oh no, I am not about to go to some house with a bunch of women. Like, absolutely not. And I was still playing the crazy card. So I remember saying like,

Mike (24:14.162)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (24:31.005)
Hahaha

Mike (24:31.558)
Hehehehehehe

Bill (24:36.024)
Ha ha.

Mara (24:39.17)
Do they have doctors there? Like, are there counselors? I need to talk about my feelings. And my mom came from Twinsburg to Painesville for court. And she was like, you don't need to talk about your feelings. You need to work steps. And I was like, no, thank you. I don't want the bed. I'll take the jail time. So they sent me back to jail, spent another week in jail, and then went back in front of the judge.

Mike (24:44.178)
Mmm-mmm.

Mara (25:01.978)
another week later and I was like surrendering like I'll take the bed no problem. That first week I was just an arrogant entitled junkie and by week two I was desperate. So that's how that happened.

Mike (25:11.09)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (25:14.756)
Okay. So had you, when you got the first run around, you just quit. You didn't go in any type of detox or even any sober house or anything like that. Just did nothing the first time, right?

Mara (25:26.25)
Glen Bay Rock Creek, I was there for almost four months.

Bill (25:29.557)
Oh, okay, the first time around?

Mara (25:31.326)
Yep, I was 18. It was, it was 1994, very fancy. It's even fancier now from what I hear, but yeah, got a boyfriend within like a first week there. The boys and the girl, the men and the women.

Mike (25:31.642)
Ooh, the fancy place!

Bill (25:34.031)
Hahaha, yeah!

Mike (25:37.902)
Uh huh.

Right.

Bill (25:46.184)
What? Hehehehe

Mara (25:47.574)
were allowed to share the same building, right? So the men were on the second floor, the women were on the first floor, but they'd let us watch movies together. So I'm like given old fashions under the covers, like during movies like, oh, isn't that what this is, sobriety's great. It was 18. Yeah, absolutely. Doing that much of anything, traditionally.

Mike (25:55.269)
Mmm.

Bill (25:55.344)
Hahaha

Mike (26:01.291)
Right, well, so it's traditional the men were on top.

Bill (26:04.292)
Yeah.

Mike (26:08.751)
Mmm.

Right. Exactly.

Bill (26:16.04)
But yeah, like I couldn't, I didn't know if you actually did anything like that the first time. But so yeah, you just got to detox and get through all your shit actually sitting in a jail cell, huh?

Mara (26:21.312)
Yeah.

Mara (26:26.794)
Yep, yeah, it was very painful, very uncomfortable, because I was drinking a fifth a day. I had a heroin habit, I had a crack habit, but I was also prescribed Valium and Clonopin. So I was taking 60 milligrams a day of Valium, a lot of Clonopin. So I was actually going through pretty severe withdrawals that had to be monitored by the jail staff. So they were monitoring that I didn't die, but they did not give me anything to take the edge off.

Mike (26:47.282)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (26:55.548)
Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. So making sure from probably more so from the alcohol that you didn't go into like a have a fucking seizure or something, right?

Mara (27:02.482)
And the benzos, yeah, but that was it. They didn't even give me blood pressure meds. I remember they gave me a couple Pepto-Bismol tabs, but I never got severe enough to even qualify for like, you know, sometimes they give clonidine, which is for high blood pressure. I wasn't even, they didn't give me that even. They just monitored me and made sure that I didn't have a seizure, but I got no medical assistance in the withdrawal. It was pretty brutal.

Mike (27:29.044)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (27:29.08)
Right. Well, and I know that, I mean, Mike, you ended up doing the same thing pretty much as I ended up going through. I mean, you were you six or seven days of detox, Mike? Seven? OK, I was six. But I don't even remember the first the first two days or two and a half days. I don't even remember they had me on so much fucking shit to bring me off. But but yeah, I couldn't. I mean, I know we and we've learned that. I mean, we talked about that in that individual that.

Mike (27:38.726)
7.

Bill (27:55.492)
Mike knows that you know ended up trying to detox on her own you know from alcohol and ended up dying and you know we've heard those other stories but yeah I can't first of all I can't imagine trying to do it on my own and I didn't know the risk you know at the time but yeah that's great so he just kind of kept an eye on you and like okay let's keep her alive long enough to get her in front of a judge right

Mara (28:12.834)
Mmm.

Mara (28:16.23)
That's what they did. I didn't realize that my mom, cause my mom's a 36 year advanced medical practitioner. She worked, she just recently retired from a long, long life in healthcare. And what I found out after the fact was that she was calling and talking to the jail doctor to get my stats. And whenever he said, oops, the calendar one, camera went on. Whenever he said something about medic, I don't care. I accidentally flashed my team at work the other day because I was.

Bill (28:37.352)
That's a good thing you have your clothes on.

Mara (28:45.19)
It's something similar, hit the camera by accident. I don't even care anymore. I'm too old to care. I was like, you're welcome. But my mom was in contact with the medical staff at the jail and was getting reports on what my BP was and my respirations. And she was like, nope, don't medicate her. I didn't realize she had, she wasn't letting them medicate me at all, as long as I wasn't dying. Thing.

Mike (28:47.826)
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Bill (28:48.466)
Ha ha.

Mike (29:02.918)
Right?

Mike (29:06.77)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, right. You want to live like this here? Pay the consequences. Good for her.

Bill (29:12.06)
Hahaha!

Well, you detoxed on your own before, right, Mike? I mean, I'm sure more than once, probably.

Mara (29:15.216)
Yeah.

Mike (29:19.098)
Yeah, yeah, once or twice. Yeah, I did. You know, and I've done it medically too and all that. And yeah, you know, I'm just glad I don't have to do it today.

Mara (29:21.87)
Mmm.

Bill (29:27.824)
Right? Right, absolutely. Yeah, the Keating Center was one thing, man, but I never, ever, ever wanna go back through a fucking detox again. That was, you know, it was fucking terrible. Just terrible. So, were you ordered to the Jean Marie based on like in lieu of sentencing, or how was that, what happened there?

Mara (29:28.381)
Amen.

Mara (29:47.658)
Yeah, so I was charged with felony possession of heroin because my bitch ass boyfriend, who left his syringe in the side of the car where I was, let me take the rap for it, even though it was, it was honestly his syringe, it wasn't even mine, but it saved my life, that syringe. You know what I mean? It's, it that, cause that's, I can't be mad at him. At the time, of course I was, cause I was like, you bitch, can't believe you're letting me take this charge. But,

Mike (30:03.506)
Mm-hmm. Right, yeah.

Mike (30:11.63)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (30:15.83)
Yeah, I was charged with a felony. And then when I went in front of the judge, he said that he would bust it down to a misdemeanor. And it's wild because at the time I didn't care because I really had convinced myself that I had been sober the best that it was ever gonna get. At the time, it was so small that I really believed that Alcoholics Anonymous wasn't gonna work for me. I could not connect the dots. You know what I mean? That I was the problem.

Mike (30:33.435)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (30:41.595)
Right?

Hmm. Oh, I know exactly what you mean. Cause yeah, that a shit didn't work for me either.

Mara (30:45.127)
So when they were...

Bill (30:51.356)
haha

Mara (30:51.986)
Yeah, yeah. And I was like, who cares if I get a felony? It's not like I'm ever gonna amount to anything. This is who I am. This is all I'm ever gonna be. And thank God my mom showed up in that courtroom and was like, you don't want a felony on your record. Cause see, if I would have taken the felony, they would have released me and bound it over to the grand jury. And I could have just gotten out and then gone back to what I was doing. And I remember my mom saying, just give yourself a.

Mike (30:53.956)
Right.

Mike (30:59.654)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (31:21.206)
just go to treatment and take the misdemeanor. And I was like, fine, you know, fine. Cause it wasn't that big of a deal, which is interesting because yeah, I am actually finally paying the money to have my misdemeanor taken off my record. I never really had to worry about it cause I was in drug counseling and they didn't care about having a misdemeanor. But I'm at this place now where I don't want it on my record anymore, you know? But at the time I was willing to take a felony.

Mike (31:40.425)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (31:50.542)
Because I thought that's who I was. I was a felon. So who cares? Leave it.

Mike (31:53.394)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (31:56.86)
Right? Yeah.

Mara (31:57.494)
Wild. So yes, I was sentenced.

Mike (31:58.638)
Right, yeah, well, speaking of being dishonest with yourself, right, I'm a fucking piece of shit junkie felon and that's what I am. Except you weren't. You just needed to do a little work on yourself and it turns out you're not that person. Pretty fucking wonderful.

Mara (32:07.506)
I wasn't, I know, right? Wild.

Bill (32:07.932)
Hehehe

Mara (32:15.891)
Who would have thought? Imagine that, yep.

Bill (32:17.924)
Right. Well, I mean, it sounds like we're about to get into the solution, right? So Mike, why don't we, what do you think? Take a break real quick.

Mike (32:27.25)
Absolutely, we will be back with the solution right after this word from our sponsor.

Bill (32:40.352)
All right, everyone, welcome back to The Solution. Starring our good friend Mara and her cat. And her cat and his, and the two cats and their balls. Hello, hello. But no, so yeah, you get, okay, the obviously misdemeanor sentenced to or in lieu of whatever it is, you happily trot into the Jean Marie house.

Mara (32:50.213)
And my cab. Two cabs.

Mara (32:55.227)
Yeah, yes. Hey, balls.

Mike (33:09.786)
Yeah, as we all do

Mara (33:10.372)
NAH!

Bill (33:11.609)
You're right. And lived happily ever after, right? Is that, I mean, we could wrap up now, right? Right.

Mara (33:13.23)
Mmm.

Mara (33:18.002)
Oh my God, I wish. It's so funny. I actually, yeah, no, I didn't happily do anything. I was miserable, angry, very angry. To the point where people would actually pull me aside and say, are you ever gonna smile? Like I was just miserable. Yeah, it was brutal.

Bill (33:24.956)
Right.

Bill (33:38.669)
That's a good thing you didn't know anyone like that Mike, right? That was angry and oh, I was, I was an angry motherfucker when I went into Mike, like we've talked about that on here too. And I, some of the things that, that he remembers, I'm like, I'm like, oh shit, you remember that? And I'm like, I said that or acted that way, you know, it's, it's been, thankfully it's been, it's not out of my mind, but it's been long enough and obviously changes have been made over the years where

Mike (33:41.05)
Right!

Mara (33:43.426)
Mmm.

Mike (33:55.25)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (34:03.416)
I can't even imagine that person anymore, but it's weird to look back, but I don't ever want to forget how fucking angry and miserable and pissy and everything else I was at that time because, man, I don't want to be that person today ever, you know?

Mara (34:18.806)
Oof. Same.

Bill (34:21.316)
Yeah. So, okay, you walk in there and you're angry and all that stuff. And yeah, kind of walk us through how things went during that time frame.

Mara (34:22.626)
Pretty awful.

Mara (34:29.826)
So my mom dropped me off with a roll of quarters, a carton of cigarettes and two lighters and said, do not use these quarters to call me. You could use them to call anyone else, but your family is done with you until you're willing to show us that you're different, not tell us that you're different. Because she had 17 years of bullshit to come, right? You know what I mean? Like I had brought a grandchild into this world. My mom had been cleaning up my mess as a quote unquote sober woman for 17 years. She was done.

Bill (34:32.423)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Mike (34:45.2)
Uh-huh.

Mike (34:48.922)
Yeah?

Mara (34:59.882)
Like to the extent where I like to tell this story because I think it's pretty cool. For my five year sobriety anniversary, five, not one, not two, not four, my five year sobriety anniversary, she gives me the code to the garage so I can go into her house when she's not home. That was my gift. So, you know, the Jean Marie house in the beginning, it was just...

Mike (35:16.786)
Mm-hmm. Yup.

Bill (35:17.371)
Right? Yeah.

Mara (35:25.526)
You know, no, my mom didn't want to come see me at, you know, she sent me a care package with some tampons and at once and some soap and some deodorant, um, to make sure I had my basic needs met. But I was not going on visits on Sundays. Like the other girls did. I was not coming back from my visits with bags of Victoria's secret sweat suits, like I was wearing donations. Um, because I was, you know, didn't have very much of my stuff. My husband came about halfway through my halfway stay.

and took me grocery shopping and my selfish, you know, ass self was just like, it was all about me. What can you get for me? What can you buy me with, you know, with your money? My daughter had been sent to live with my sister in Phoenix. So that was one of the big, biggest things was losing her at the time. So I had a four year old child, she's she has some special needs due to some complications in my pregnancy that resulted in her being

Mike (36:03.122)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (36:22.966)
denied oxygen at birth. So instead of taking her to speech therapy, occupational therapy, all of the therapies, I was too busy getting high. So my daughter was very, very underdeveloped by the time I went into Jean Marie. And my sister took her in Phoenix and started giving her a life. So I was without my kid. My animals were put down, like I said, I had four animals that were all euthanized on the same day. My husband had to do that.

And I just felt like I had nothing left in the world. I was sad. I didn't know what was ever gonna happen to me. And I didn't have any hope. And my story, I do believe in a higher power that I choose to call God. I was raised Jewish and Catholic and I had a Jehovah's Witness babysitter. So I was everywhere growing up and I don't believe in organized religion.

Bill (37:14.225)
Hahaha

Mike (37:14.46)
Right.

Mara (37:16.766)
I'm not a church goer, I'm not a synagogue attender, and I don't go to the Kingdom Hall, but I do believe in God. I believe that God is love. That's my belief system. And during that, and my belief is also that God is positive energy. So I believe I have to communicate with that positive energy every day or else I'm gonna be negative. And I look at it very much like plugging into a wall or a socket. So without those visits, without the distractions of my family,

pouring into me during that time, I was able to build that relationship with people in Alcoholics Anonymous and build a relationship with my higher power. And I believe that saved my life because a lot of the girls I saw who did go home every Sunday and come back with bags of clothes and get their kids back right off rip and get their husbands back right off rip, a lot of them, most of those people are no longer sober and some of them are dead. So, you know, having to work for every single thing I've gotten.

Mike (38:11.808)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (38:16.486)
has made it very worthwhile to me. It makes it harder to lose when you, you know what I mean?

Mike (38:19.818)
Right. But exactly. You value it because you had to earn it. Absolutely. Yeah.

Mara (38:25.482)
Yes. Yep. So that's what Jean Marie was for me.

Bill (38:28.785)
Yeah.

Mike (38:31.157)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (38:32.448)
Yeah, and that was kind of the same way with the Keating Center, although my mom did give me an allowance. She gave me a $20 a week allowance and she did buy chips and gave Mike and I cookies and, you know, over time and stuff like that. But and yeah, that's she used to make oatmeal chocolate chip cookies. And when we were still. Yeah, I know it might not have been till we were three quarter because I remember bringing them down into three quarter room. It might have been halfway, but I'd bring them in this.

Mike (38:42.578)
Mm-hmm. Hehehehehehehehe.

Mara (38:43.127)
Yeah.

Mara (38:50.338)
Those are like my favorite cookies.

Mike (38:52.25)
God, I miss those. Hehehehehehe.

Mike (38:59.09)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (39:01.8)
It was like this, a container that used to have like, like caramel corn in it. So it was a big, like a big Tupperware dish, but a larger one, you know? And so she'd fill that up. And I remember bringing that back to the Keating Center and I would fucking hide it, you know, because it was just, yeah, there's just a bunch of fucking animals around there. But even at that time, I think, Mike, you and I, and I think I shared them probably with Tom and maybe one other person, but...

Mike (39:17.418)
Because we're fucking animals

Mara (39:19.566)
Pigs, right?

Mike (39:27.688)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (39:29.68)
Like when I bring them back to the, when we were in the three quarter dorm, I think I shared them with everyone. But yeah, then our mom started making them. So Mike, his own separate batch. So he got his cookies and I'd get mine. But, and that's the thing though. And I did, and I got, in watching a lot of the guys that were at the Keating Center at that timeframe, that didn't have anywhere to go, nobody to go home to, nobody to help them out or anything like that.

Mike (39:39.666)
Mm-hmm. Hehehehe.

Bill (39:58.)
And my mom lived in Medina at the time. So every Sunday she'd drive up and back to pick me up and then up and back to drop me off, completely around my schedule because I had to be back at a certain time. She'd either make dinner early or make dinner for me to take back as I had to go to a meeting. But I mean, I must've, I didn't take advantage of it. I know that much. And I know I appreciated it. And I did work when I went down there.

So for whatever reason, and completely 100% against my nature at that time, I didn't just take shit, which still blows my mind because I don't know where that transition happened for me, you know, of why I wasn't taking advantage of the situation. Even at the Keating Center, Mike, I mean, I sat there and I was stubborn. I did everything I was told, but I didn't participate right away, right? You know? But I just kind of, I literally just.

Mike (40:52.938)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (40:55.756)
I followed the path, did the, against my will, I, you know, again, just shut my mouth and crossed my arms and said, I'll listen to these motherfuckers, but I'm not saying a goddamn thing. And that's exactly what I should have done. But I did it without even realizing that I was doing it. I thought I was being obstinate where I was actually helping myself. You know, but I mean, we saw, I don't even know how many guys, you know, we tried to figure it out.

Mara (41:08.203)
Hmm.

Mara (41:11.915)
Right?

Mike (41:18.914)
hehehe

Bill (41:23.664)
What do we think? 100 guys, 150 guys in that summer that went through there. And, you know, so many people, you know, went back out and died and all sort of things. People that we see to this day, you know, at the Keating Center events, you know, that are back at the back at the rock. I mean, 13 and a half years later, these guys are back there again, you know. And but for the grace, we always say, you know, that there goes I or he or we or whatever it is. But I don't know. I don't know what.

Mike (41:25.923)
Right? Mm-hmm.

Mike (41:41.862)
Hmm?

Bill (41:52.26)
I don't know what happened to me, but I'm glad it did. You know? And it sounds like, you know, same thing sounds like it happened to you too, Mara. I mean, yeah.

Mara (41:55.63)
All right, it's beautiful.

Mike (41:55.952)
Right.

Mara (42:00.638)
It, Katie Patton calls it the connect, you know, it's the moment that your heart connects to your head. You know what I mean? That it just, the connection occurs. It's like the longest road ever, but once it occurs, it's like, you don't ever want to lose it again. And yeah, that was it for me. But I...

Mike (42:06.994)
ZZ

Mike (42:10.767)
Right.

Mike (42:17.378)
Mm-hmm. Well, Marty has a better way of saying it. He that the popping sound when your head comes out of your ass

Mara (42:23.854)
Oh, yeah, that would say that's, yeah. Ha ha ha. Yeah.

Bill (42:25.053)
Right.

Mike (42:28.019)
You know, and I, when I stood to group and stuff, I'd talk about that with the guys. I'll be like, you know, he used to say that to me and it pissed me off, man. He's like, you know, pull your head out of your ass. And I'll be like, fuck you, man. You know, cause I thought he was calling me stupid. What I didn't, what I figured out eventually, like when my head came out of my ass, um, is when my head's up my ass, everywhere I look, all I can see is myself.

Mara (42:42.604)
No.

Mike (42:52.174)
And when it comes out of my ass, I actually see that there's other people in this world that I affected, that affect me, and I went, oh fuck, alright, that makes sense. Mmhmm.

Mara (43:03.95)
people that benefit from your sobriety, instead of just getting hurt by your hurtful nature. Yeah, it's wild.

Mike (43:06.907)
Right.

Mike (43:11.01)
Exactly. Well, you know, I, the biggest lie that we tell ourselves and we believe it with all our hearts or not hurting anybody but ourselves. Yeah. Right. And it's, it's right. We, unfortunately, or fortunately, however you want to look at it, you know, um, we affect other people. It's just all about how we affect them. You know, it used to be, we didn't give a fuck and we thought we weren't hurting other people. We were, you know,

Mara (43:20.738)
Yep.

Bill (43:21.625)
Right.

Mike (43:38.542)
locking myself in a hotel or motel room somewhere you know so I'm just you know I'm not affecting other people but yes locked in that motel room a hundred miles away from anybody I know I'm still hurting other people and I gotta remember that you know I've got to remember that everything I do affects people so what the fuck am I doing am I am I being positive or am I being

Mara (43:59.395)
Dude, it's...

Mara (44:02.846)
everything. Yeah.

Mike (44:08.378)
Hopefully I'm being positive. You know, I don't always feel like it and I don't always feel like I want to but Gotta remember I have to

Bill (44:17.856)
Right. Yeah. And it's that ripple effect. And we've talked about that plenty of times. You know, we used to spread all these negative ripples out to everyone. And everything we did and every person we touched, we fucked with in a bad way. You know, but now we have that opportunity to do things differently. And hopefully, you know, whether it's this thing we're doing or whether we're sharing in a meeting or interacting with somebody like at the retreat we went to, you know.

Mara (44:18.65)
It's wild.

Bill (44:44.928)
You know shaking somebody's hand or listening to somebody's story or hanging around in one of these groups a little bit longer We never know who we who we might be Affecting in a positive way, but then again still even to this day, you know We got to watch ourselves because who might be you know, who might we be affecting in a negative way? You know, there's always watching learning and listening, you know, and Mike said it perfectly the you said it plenty of times But I know a few episodes ago, maybe a month or so ago

He said all of us, and something we heard years ago, everyone can act good for 60 minutes a day in a meeting. But then, Mike, you had said what the after from the Our Father to the Serenity Prayer, right? You know?

Mike (45:22.126)
Right. Yeah. From the serenity prayer to the, our father, it's fucking easy. It's from the, our father to the serenity prayer that we got to keep our asses. Keep on our toes, man. You know, make sure we're doing the right thing. Yeah, exactly. That's where it matters. Not in the church basement.

Mara (45:22.78)
Mm, yep.

Bill (45:31.888)
Hahaha

Mara (45:32.554)
Yeah, that's where it matters. Yep.

Bill (45:39.152)
You know, it was funny today on the, on the way out here, I had stopped at, uh, I don't know where the fuck I was, um, coming out here and I just stopped at a, uh, pulled up the highway and stopped at a subway. And I've been to order something and I'm sitting down eating and I was close ish to the door and I had, uh, you know, a few different napkins and what I already use, I wiped off some stuff on the table. So I just had this folded up napkin and somebody opened up the door to either come in or come out and the wind blew in and blew this napkin.

Mara (45:39.694)
100%.

Bill (46:06.652)
from my booth over to the next one, like on the bench part. And I saw it, I'm like, well, that's kind of fucking weird, just kind of blew my napkin over there. And then at the end, I almost walked away without picking it up. And I'm like, literally something in me, I'm like, I gotta pick up the napkin. And then as soon as I picked it up, it reminded me of when we first got sober, walking into a bathroom, or all these little things we were taught. Picking up that napkin meant nothing to anybody but me.

Mike (46:18.93)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Mara (46:30.498)
Yep.

Bill (46:35.46)
You know, okay, so I don't pick up a fucking napkin. So fucking what? But if I pick up a napkin, I'm doing something, you know, I'm not changing the world by picking up a napkin, but again, it means something to me. I'm leaving that little Subway restaurant, hopefully in the same or better condition than I walked in, you know? And that's what this thing is about, all these little things. And it used to irritate me, because I remember that going into a bathroom and like a gas station or something like that, couple of months sober. And you know, you do the whole.

Mara (46:54.394)
percent.

Bill (47:03.568)
you know, get paper towel and, you know, throw it towards the can and it misses. I used to just fucking walk out. And I was doing that and I'm like, I, it was this overwhelming need to pick it, pick it up at that point. And thankfully it's, it's that way. Now, if something like that happens, I fuck, I got to pick that up. And it's a little things, you know.

Mara (47:22.622)
It's wild that we, yeah, it's wild. You know what? That's Boy Scout shit. That's literally what you're taught in the Brownies and the Cubs. Like you're taught to leave, you're taught to leave, you know, people, places and things better than you found them. As simple as it sounds. From a conversation to a room to a gasket, you know what I mean? That's what, but we don't listen to that shit. That shit's dumb. That's dumb shit. Until you get sober.

Mike (47:28.283)
Right.

Bill (47:28.948)
Hahaha!

Mike (47:31.384)
Uh-huh.

Mike (47:41.49)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (47:50.454)
Right. That's corny.

Bill (47:50.64)
Hahaha!

Mara (47:52.154)
Now it's life saving. Yeah. Now it saves our lives. Yeah.

Mike (47:54.778)
Yeah, right. It does. And now, you know, but again, doing it over and over and over again, it's just kind of part of who we are, which is cool.

Bill (47:58.736)
Yeah, and I mean...

Bill (48:06.072)
Right. But it is. I mean, well, we... Ha ha ha.

Mara (48:06.982)
and wild, because I don't care about things like that. Without a program, without a program, without a program. I do now, now it matters to me as part of who I am. But before, hell no. Yeah.

Mike (48:09.666)
Yeah, I know.

Mike (48:14.958)
Right. Now.

Bill (48:19.176)
Right. Yeah. And I mean, it is, it's all of it's kind of corny, all the things we do, you know, the prayers, the meditation things, the readings, the, you know, anything we do with the process is it's, you know, if I suppose if somebody is looking at it from the outside, once again, like you just said, Mara, that doesn't have a program. So that's kind of weird, this little process and everything that people go through, you know, but it is corny as it is, or as ridiculous as it seems, or meaningless possibly to somebody from the outside, it's fucking everything. Because without these

Mara (48:48.309)
everything.

Bill (48:49.24)
without the program, without the steps, without everything that we do, without this process, in this routine every day. And maybe that's a question too, because we usually, we talk to a lot of people about that. And Mike and I have a routine that's pretty similar on a daily basis, but so from like, when you get up in the morning on a typical day, whether you go to a meeting that day or not, do you have a specific routine that you do every single day, no matter what?

Mike (49:03.931)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (49:15.658)
Yes, to the point where I annoy myself. Oh, is that private? No, no, sometimes it gets a little spicy. No, no, I'm not sure in that part, depends. Ha ha ha. You're not that lucky. I'll tell you later, I'll text it to you. I'll text it to you.

Bill (49:16.964)
Okay, do you want to share it or is it private? Or? Ha ha ha. You're just, you're like, yes. Oh, spicy goat, wait. Hang on. Hang on, wait a second. I'm just getting a pen here. Getting a pen, go ahead. Ha ha. Ha ha ha. Awesome, cool.

Mike (49:35.986)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Mara (49:39.646)
No, I, you know what? I have not gone a day, I will be honest with you, I've not gone a day without making my bed since I got sober, whether I'm at home at someone else's house or in a hotel room. Even if I'm in a hotel, I will make my bed. I guess the only times I haven't made my bed is the one time where I, there was twice where I had like the flu from hell or when I had COVID and there were a few days where I didn't get out of bed to make it. But every single time I've gotten out of my bed, I've made my bed.

Mike (49:47.427)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (49:47.696)
Yeah.

Mike (49:51.59)
Right? Yup.

Mike (50:05.763)
Right.

Mara (50:09.602)
So the first thing I do in the morning is I get up and I make my bed. I then will engage in some sort of meditation and my meditation almost always closes with, God, please show me how I can be helpful to others because I finally have believed in the fact that if I am of service to God and to others that I don't have time to be caught up in my own bullshit. So.

Mike (50:35.558)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (50:35.577)
Right.

Mara (50:37.558)
That doesn't always mean service to other alcoholics. I work in hospice right now. So hospice is a very service oriented profession. You literally only get the chance to do end of life correctly one time. You can't screw this up because you're not gonna get another chance. So a lot of my service work is through my job. How can I do something extra for this person or their family at probably the hardest time of their life? Or, you know.

Mike (50:51.819)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (51:06.526)
So service, service is how I close my morning meditation, my morning prayers. I do pray. I don't always pray on my knees. I'm not a big believer in that, but I do believe in conscious contact with the higher power of my choice, whatever that is. I live by myself with my cats.

Mike (51:16.43)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (51:23.05)
So I do a lot of talking to God all day. Like, I don't know what you're telling me right now. I don't know what you're doing, but I'm gonna trust you. I'm really annoyed with you right now. This is fucked up. Like, I don't know what, why are you sending me on this mission, God? Or why did you send this motherfucker back into my life? Or why are you doing this? Or what, you know, but those are how my conversations go with my higher power. Go to work. Oh, I definitely, you know, feed my cats usually the same time every day.

Mike (51:28.37)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Bill (51:29.468)
Hahaha!

Mike (51:36.762)
Mm-hmm.

Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Bill (51:42.149)
Hahaha

Mike (51:46.438)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (51:52.758)
go to work, come home, you know, do whatever I have to do around the house. I have some work stuff I have to do every single day to close out my day, some computer stuff, plan for my next day, because I'm in sales, sales and marketing. So I look at what my next day looks like. I lay out my outfit like a fucking first grader, like, oh, what am I gonna wear tomorrow? Which jacket? And hang it up, make, and then I go to bed. If I, or I go to a meeting and come home and.

Bill (52:14.768)
Ha! Hehehe

Mike (52:14.871)
Mm-hmm. Out.

Mara (52:22.574)
Go to bed. Very boring, very boring, but I'm sure you guys could relate. Get me out of my routine and I will lose my fucking mind. I do not do well at other people's houses, at other places. Like I need to know where are my little mango treats that I like to eat every night for dessert? Where's my oat milk? What am I doing? Where's my favorite cup? Like I'm very structured now. It's wild.

Mike (52:33.874)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (52:43.526)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (52:48.186)
Right?

Bill (52:48.796)
Ha ha ha!

Mara (52:52.043)
Very structured.

Bill (52:52.496)
Yeah. And I mean, I know Mike is too. And I mean, we fuck around with each other back and forth about certain things. But I mean, we lived together, not just at the, you know, the three quarter house, but, you know, we got to know each other's isms. I think at that point would probably be the right way to put it right, Mike. And then, and then living together in, you know, that upper that we lived in. Same deal. I mean, we, we figured out it, even at the three quarter house, anytime we had a new guy come in, we would actually sit down with them.

Mike (53:20.732)
That's it.

Bill (53:21.204)
I was probably the first one to do it. I'm like, okay, here's when I get in the shower, Bob gets up at this time, he goes to the bathroom, I get in the shower, then this person does. Cause basically it's like this, when these new people come into our situation, I'm like, I gotta be out of the house at a certain point. And this is when Bob goes in, this is when Mike goes in, this is when we've got this set. You could fit in anywhere you fucking want, but don't get into my shit. And like at the retreat. So.

Mara (53:44.939)
Yep.

Bill (53:48.092)
When we got to that retreat and we went over for dinner and stuff like that, the only thing I was, when I first thought about it, I'm like, where am I gonna do my reading? Because I was, Mike and I were kind of like shooting the shit about that. And he's like, I'm gonna sit in the car because that's where I'm gonna smoke anyhow. I'm like, that's a good point. But then we ended up downstairs and there was those, the breakout rooms. So both mornings, I get up early and I went downstairs and that coffee pot worked. So I grabbed coffee and I went into one of those side rooms.

Mike (53:59.686)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (54:03.282)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (54:06.615)
Mmm.

Bill (54:17.728)
I did my readings, I did my prayers. I went back down there and I'll usually get, that's when I do some of the social media updates for this and on Instagram and stuff like that. But I took that time away from everyone. I heard a couple of people come down the stairs. Nobody popped their head in. I was telling Mike, I'm like, nobody's gonna fuck with me. Even if somebody popped their head in, I mean, everyone's there for the same goddamn reason. They're gonna realize that I'm sitting in there, I'm taking time for myself, but it was extremely important. I wasn't worried about it because I knew I'd figure it out.

Mike (54:39.183)
Right.

Mara (54:39.639)
Yep.

Bill (54:47.74)
You know, but it was important to me. I planned that out in my head. Where am I gonna do this shit in the morning? You know, when our mom died, we talked about that on one of our episodes. You know, we were in this Airbnb with 14 fucking people. You know, if all else fails, if I'm someplace for Christmas or holidays or somebody's house, I'll go in the bathroom in the morning when I brush my teeth and do my contacts. I'll do my prayers in there while I'm doing that because they're mine.

Mara (54:54.228)
Yeah.

Mike (55:03.3)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (55:16.088)
And then my readings I'll do out, you know, in front of people, but people know, people know what I do. People know what Mike does, you know? But yeah, it's that, yeah, it's, I don't want my routine fucked with, and it's, it's a non-negotiable. I'm going to get those done one way or the other. So either way, even if I get to tell somebody, you know what, give me 10 minutes, give me 15 minutes, whatever the deal is, I would have went in the stall in the bathroom at that retreat if I needed to.

Mike (55:22.994)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (55:31.104)
Oh f-

Bill (55:42.588)
to do my readings if that's the only place I could have gotten privacy. It doesn't matter to me. I just want to get it done, you know?

Mara (55:48.106)
Yeah, yeah, I get it. I get it, I'm the same way. It's.

Mike (55:50.726)
Right. But it will be done. Right.

Bill (55:52.66)
Oh, no fucking, no fucking shit, you know? Yeah, but...

Mara (55:56.394)
It's wild. I'm about to have surgery at the end of December, some pretty serious surgery. My family's gonna be here with me, my mom and my two sisters. So how many people is that? Two, three, four Italian women in my tiny house. I don't, like, I just know that it's gonna be something, my routine's gonna be messed with. I'm not gonna be able to go to the bathroom when I want to because someone might be in there. It's gonna be wild. I have to surrender that I can't.

Mike (56:00.274)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (56:10.359)
Ha ha ha!

Mike (56:12.224)
Mm.

Mara (56:25.662)
be so rigid all the time, but that rigidity has also saved my life. So it's weird.

Mike (56:27.666)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (56:30.22)
Oh, got ya.

Mike (56:30.434)
Right. Yeah. Well, you know, like, like all of this shit, man, it's, it's finding that balance and yeah, sometimes, you know, it's funny. Um, I don't know if you guys experienced this, but like, you know, okay. First of all, I didn't want to go to the retreat. I really didn't. Um, kind of for some of these reasons, right? You know, I'm going to be out of my routine. I am not going to, I've got to fuck a perfectly good house right here. Why am I going to this place? You know,

Mara (56:48.199)
That's okay, me either.

Bill (56:57.658)
Hahaha!

Mara (56:59.046)
Who you telling? Who you telling? I know, yes.

Mike (57:00.322)
Right. Exactly. I know. Right. Okay. So anyway, so we got there and it turned out to be wonderful. I had a great time. It was all uplifting and all that shit. And I felt really, really good. Right. Um, you know, we left, um, my home group is Sunday night. So I went to my home group. It was all great. You know, I'm, I'm in spiritual high and all this shit, all this happy crap. And then for the next, the next two days, going back out into the real world.

Mara (57:23.531)
Hehehehe

Mike (57:28.774)
with all these other assholes out there. You know, cause I mean, all for all weekend, right? We're surrounded by people who are there for the same reason and people just like us. And it was wonderful, right? And the next two days, I was fucking pissed that I had to be out with normies and assholes. Okay, okay. So I'm not alone in that.

Mara (57:31.616)
Uhhh

Bill (57:37.192)
Hehehe

Mara (57:41.11)
Yup.

Mara (57:46.411)
Yes.

Bill (57:49.5)
Hehehehe

Mara (57:49.969)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (57:52.496)
Right? Yeah.

Mara (57:53.194)
No, actually, if you listen at the closing ceremony, you didn't hear it because it was really getting loud in there because all the people came in. But one of the last things that Kevin says that normally when we have the closing ceremony is he goes, don't forget as you go out to as you go out into the real world, everyone else was not at a retreat all weekend. So they'll look, you know, be careful because people are still out there being assholes. That's one of the things. So obviously it's a common thing.

Mike (57:59.026)
Mm hmm. Right.

Ah.

Mike (58:15.122)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (58:21.866)
Oh fuck, apparently I missed that, god damn, that would have helped.

Mara (58:25.51)
Yeah, he says it every time. That's how he closes the weekend. By the way, there is a weekend, the idea, it's coming up in March, March 15th through 17th if anyone wants to come.

Mike (58:30.482)
Of course he does of course he does

Right? I think we're planning on the June one, but yep.

Mara (58:40.606)
June is rad, it's so nice outside and we go in the water and everything. It's so much fun, so I'll see you guys, yeah, for sure. I won't be in the water, but you can swim in your little bathing suit.

Mike (58:42.466)
Yeah. Absolutely.

Bill (58:50.756)
Yeah, but I mean, that's what when you were asking me about, you know, if anything, and we brought that up on the podcast when we had talked about it afterwards, you know, that how did we like it? It was anything different, right? Whatever. And same thing I told you, I mean, I had a wonderful time. I, that's my only thing, it would be, it would have been nice if the weather was nicer, but that had zero that had nothing to do with the retreat. That just had to do with that would have added one more layer to the thing, you know, the retreat itself, the structure, everything, everything was.

fucking wonderful. Absolutely wonderful, it's great. And I mean, all like Mike said, and that's always the cool part about going to a meeting, any type of meeting, for the most part, you get some meetings where people are fucking around and just there because they have to be and whatever, that's fine. But in a retreat like that, that's a commitment because people not only taking time out of their lives, but there's a commitment, a financial commitment and a time commitment.

Mara (59:24.162)
Thank you.

Bill (59:47.904)
So people are really into being there. And again, all there for the same reason. And it just, it was spectacular. It was just wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. Yeah, it was great. Yeah, really, really.

Mara (59:57.134)
Thank you. I think so. I think it's everyone should do it. Oh, I'm glad you came.

Mike (59:59.606)
Oh, thank you. I mean, we wouldn't have been there if you wouldn't ask us to be. Trust me.

Bill (01:00:05.359)
Yeah, it's a...

Mara (01:00:06.506)
I do wish more of our friends would come. Like I wish, but I think it's, I don't know if it scares people or if they think it's some weird ass Kumbaya bullshit, but it's not, it's very cool. It really is. People just need to have an open mind because just the setup of it and hearing different, hearing the steps, but you're required to talk about the steps from the literature. So it's not your opinion on the steps, it's the steps. I think it's brilliant and effective.

Mike (01:00:16.546)
Yeah! Yeah, right!

Mike (01:00:28.69)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mara (01:00:36.13)
but whatever.

Mike (01:00:36.174)
Yeah. And it, right. It's not your opinion, but it is your personal experience with the steps. Right. You know, and, and yes, we're all there. We're all the same, you know, none of us are different, all that good stuff, but you know, clearly we all approach them slightly differently, you know, how we incorporate them into our lives. And it's very cool to hear other people's opinions and how they, how they do it, how they work it and how they do incorporate it into their lives. And.

Mara (01:00:41.134)
Experience. Yep.

Mike (01:01:05.594)
You know, um, yeah, so, you know, clearly, yes, my way works for me, but I also want to know how your way works for you. And it, it expanded my understanding. It was, it was great. I loved it.

Mara (01:01:12.59)
works for you.

Bill (01:01:16.804)
Right. Well, and that's a. Oh, it was it was great. But I mean, Mike's right. I mean, neither one of us. And again, it's not like we didn't know there's retreats or anything like that. But never once in the 13 and a half years that we've been sober. And Mike and I are really close. There's that we never had a conversation about, hey, that'd be great to go to a retreat someday, right? That the conversation never happened. You know, but here's the thing. And and this is what we were taught that.

Mara (01:01:18.658)
Thank you, I'm so glad you guys came.

Mike (01:01:37.923)
Right.

Mara (01:01:39.864)
Yeah.

Bill (01:01:44.856)
If we're, first of all, you asked us, so like Mike said, thank you, but that's a thing you asked us and there was a purpose for being there. That would have been, I don't know, just some random person that said, hey, there's a retreat coming up. Great, thanks, nice. But it's.

Mike (01:01:58.67)
Right. Oh yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, cooks forest. I've never fucking gone. It's, it's, it's a big camping thing over in Pennsylvania. Um, huge sober thing. I mean, you know, probably. Shit. I know hundreds of people that go all the time and I'm like, I don't want to go lay in the dirt. That's why I fucking pay my mortgage.

Mara (01:02:18.306)
I know, I get it, same. Same.

Bill (01:02:19.662)
Right.

But I mean, going there and having that opportunity to, because you mentioned service and stuff like that before, having that opportunity to get something out of it, but also be of service and just like Mike said, getting different ideas. All the prayers that I do, it's not a long thing, but it's long-ish, but every piece of it I've learned or I've taken it from somebody, none of this shit, I'd never prayed before in my life. So,

the prayers, the books that we read, the processes that we go through, these are all things that we've taken from people that have been given to us freely, but yes, we take them from people, but in a positive way and we put those into our lives. And the one that we talked about on the podcast, which still I'll mention again, in case anyone's listening to this and they didn't hear the other one, is there was one individual that, and through all the little groups that we were in, Mike and I were only in one together, and we happened to be in this one together. And

this individual is talking about every morning she wakes up as if in her mind, she's at the edge of a cliff, her toes are right at the edge of a cliff. And with every piece of her program that she does, whether it's a reading or a prayer or a meditation or doing service work or this and that, she moves slowly away from that cliff. So by the end of the day, she can't see the edge anymore. But then she wakes up the next morning and she's right at the edge of that fucking cliff again. And, and it was, I told her.

Mara (01:03:42.69)
Mmm.

Mara (01:03:47.984)
I love that.

Bill (01:03:49.236)
I know I told her, I said, that was so impactful to me because I'm such a visual person. That's number one. But literally I could see myself. It's practical, you know, because that's it. If we're on the edge, we're on the edge of drinking every day, single day we wake up because we're starting over again, you know, it's this sober groundhog day that we got to live every fucking day, which is good, you know, but if we just, we don't do any work, we're going to fall over that cliff sooner or later, you know, so.

It was perfect. And that was just one thing that we heard. But man, I'll never forget that. You know, it's just so visual. It's great. Mm-hmm, yeah, that's cool.

Mara (01:04:24.69)
I love that. And the beautiful, going back to my experience of my relapse after all those years is I wish that I had fallen off the cliff a whole lot sooner than I did because I'm telling you, waiting over a decade to fall off the cliff was pure torture. So it's almost more of a gift to fall off the cliff sooner. But I love that. I love that practical, cause I've heard the thing where, here's the drink, here's me.

Mike (01:04:40.786)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (01:04:52.03)
And then I put something down and go, okay, this is prayer. And then I put something else down. This is meditation. This is sponsorship. This is meetings. And everything I put between me and that drink. And then as I take everything away, I get even closer. But the Cliff version is actually, the Cliff Notes are actually, you know, I can see that in my mind's eye and that's brilliant. So I'm glad, you know, I love that.

Bill (01:05:07.831)
Hahaha!

Bill (01:05:12.848)
Yeah. And wasn't, Mike, I think she's, she might be a year or, I mean, she's, she's young-ish, I know, in, you know, she hasn't been sober like, you know, like years and years. Um, but, but I mean, that's, that's the other thing too. And we've talked about this is that it's so, it was so nice getting the, uh, the mix of people that were there, you know, number one from ages and backgrounds, but also lengths of sobriety, because you get some of these, and we see it all the time. You get these people that are.

Mike (01:05:13.092)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:05:21.168)
Yeah.

Mike (01:05:24.976)
Right.

Bill (01:05:42.572)
in that, you know, that one to two to three year sober range. I mean, that's when people are just, I mean, they're, they're fucking crazy in a good way. You know, they're all this and they're all happy and they're, oh, I'm fired. And it's, and it's great, you know, because I like being around those people now. You know, I still, I do everything that I do every day, but it's just become a part of my life. I appreciate it and all that stuff. Um, but I have to remind myself to be grateful every day after I remind myself that I can't control shit.

Mara (01:05:53.15)
On fire, yeah. Yep.

Mike (01:05:54.784)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Bill (01:06:11.076)
I have to remind myself that I have to be patient and that somebody else's fucking will and not mine. All those things I literally have to remind myself of at least twice a day, probably more. Yes, more most days. But you get these new folks that you're around and you see just that fire and it's like fucking AI remember that. I want to be like that for a couple of minutes here. But it does. It's a recharge. It's a recharge being around those individuals. And that's exactly what those...

Mike (01:06:16.37)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Mike (01:06:23.218)
mhm

Mara (01:06:25.39)
Hmm.

Mike (01:06:32.946)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Bill (01:06:40.504)
retreats the retreat was to be it's a it's a refocus it's a recharge it was just a rebirth is too fucking corny even for me to say but it was it's just a recharge of the whole thing you know so

Mara (01:06:50.249)
Mmm.

Yeah, but that's good. That's good. I love it. Tell everyone about it. Cause I would love for everyone to experience it at least once. Cause it really is renewing.

Bill (01:06:59.364)
Okay, well here, hang on one second. Hang on one second. Everyone go to a retreat. Okay, there we go. I just told everyone. No, thanks. Hey, thanks. So what else? I mean, tell everyone else what you've done over the last nine years. Cause you sent me a text. I could just read the text that you sent because it made me laugh. But, you know, I mean, you know, the things that you've done, that the things that you're proud of now, the things that you've gotten back in your life.

Mara (01:07:07.034)
Thanks. Good luck now.

Mara (01:07:22.645)
Oh.

Bill (01:07:29.35)
since you've been sober. I mean, it's been nine years. I think some good things have been happening to you.

Mara (01:07:34.63)
Oh, for sure. Well, I think the biggest thing, the biggest gift that I was able to give back was that I did make the decision at four years sober to let my sister permanently adopt my daughter, which was devastating, but beautiful at the same time, because it truly was, in my opinion, exactly what my God would have had me do, give her the life that she needed.

Mike (01:08:00.629)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (01:08:01.19)
and be a mother, be a real mother. And what does that mean? You know, some people are like, well, what does that mean, be a real mother? To me, that means doing what's in the best interest of my child, regardless of how it makes me feel or made me feel at the time. So I had a year sober on September 17th of 2015, and then a few weeks later, October 8th of 2015, my husband died. So Rob and I had been together since 1996. He was like my first boyfriend.

Mike (01:08:14.879)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (01:08:31.178)
my first everything. And I spent, you know, almost half my life with him, moved out of my mom's house in with him. So, you know, when he died, it devastated me, even though our marriage was very toxic at the end and we certainly weren't in love anymore, he was my family. He was my family, you know what I mean? And I will never, he never let me.

go without anything. He always defended me. He was my biggest cheerleader, my best friend in the world. Like no one could say a word about Mara to Rob because Rob would kill for me. So to lose him left me feeling very alone in the world. And he did die of an overdose in a sober house, a very sad death considering he had been in some 12 step fellowship for 30 years. He'd been in one or the other. He just couldn't, he couldn't stay sober.

and he did die as a result of this disease of not working the program and he died. So, you know, I could not in my right mind see it fit. I'm living in a sober house, Rob's dead. How am I gonna bring Brooklyn back from Phoenix back here to what? You know, she has a mom in a sober house and her dad is dead. If she stays in Phoenix, she has all of these services. My sister got her into all the therapies.

My brother-in-law was basically already raising her like she was his child. She had a mom, she had a dad, she had all of her needs met. So that was probably the biggest act of faith that I ever took in sobriety. And I remember I was working at Y Haven at the time, which is a treatment center out here. And I had some really amazing people in my life that I worked with. And this one man who is, I call him my brother, he said to me, you know,

you will be amazed at the blessings that will come into your life for this selfless act of what you're willing to do. And of course at that time I was like maybe I'll get a car. You know maybe I'll have a car in my name. You know because I was driving my dead husband's Honda. You know and I was like or maybe I'll get approved for a credit card. Those were the blessings I thought were going to come to me as a result of doing the right thing. It has been multiply that by a million.

Bill (01:10:33.491)
hahahaha

Mike (01:10:34.651)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (01:10:45.778)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (01:10:52.798)
everything, how about the peace of mind and knowing that my child is well cared for? How about the respect, right? How about the respect? How about the option now of having that experience to share with other women when I go into treatment centers and pick girls up for meetings who have six months sober and want to go back to being a full-time mom, that think that they're ready to do that? You know, how about the knowledge and the being wise now and being able to

Mike (01:10:57.637)
Right.

Mike (01:11:13.39)
Right.

Mara (01:11:23.054)
because that's a huge thing. I see women relapse all the time because they, I gotta leave treatment, I gotta go be a mom. My kid's waiting for me. My kid's gonna end up in the system. Of course I've had wonderful things happen to me. I went back into drug and alcohol counseling and then I left the field and got into the field that I'm in now, which is healthcare sales, which financially of course is much better, but also just...

Mike (01:11:30.094)
Mm-hmm, right.

Mara (01:11:52.098)
the amount of confidence it's built in me. Addicts and alcoholics are born hustlers, right? We're salespeople. We just are, listen, buy this, I promise. I know it looks like, but I'm telling you, if you smoke this, it's gonna change your life. Okay, whatever, how much is it? $500, okay. I can sell a ketchup popsicle to a woman in a white fur coat.

Mike (01:11:58.962)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:12:02.172)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (01:12:02.575)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (01:12:10.354)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Mara (01:12:16.246)
So I knew that being getting sober and actually working steps, I was gonna learn how to actually use my powers for good instead of evil and make a living and be successful at it. So that's another benefit of sobriety. You know, I'm a single woman. I'm not in a relationship right now. I've gone on some dates, but nothing that's really made me willing to give up my being alone and figure out who I am. I love this journey that I'm on. And...

Mike (01:12:25.81)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (01:12:46.662)
one of the benefits of that. I bought a house for myself in my name. My name's on the deed. This is my house. You know what I mean? That, that's huge to me. A couple months after owning my house, I found out that God bless this crackhead who used to live here. He still owned the land in the back that no one seemed to figure out until after I moved in that this wasn't my whole yard. He starts showing up at my house. I befriend the...

Mike (01:12:51.822)
Right.

Bill (01:12:54.537)
Hehehehe

Mike (01:12:57.625)
Uh huh.

Mara (01:13:15.394)
the town crackhead and about three months later, I buy the land from him. I waited till he was nice and sick and said, "'You want $1,000? Sign the land over.'" I got the land. So I'm a landowner. I'm a landowner and a homeowner. On Monday, I'm actually going to buy a new car. I'm going to buy the car on Monday, like in my name with my income. I loved my husband to death.

Mike (01:13:24.562)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Bill (01:13:25.403)
hahahaha

Bill (01:13:33.169)
Okay.

Mara (01:13:44.53)
I loved him with everything in me, but I'm not gonna sit here and lie and say that it did not benefit me to get money from his family or to claim his income or to use him for all those things. So the fact that I can say I own all these things because I have become a self-sufficient, independent woman is huge for me because I'm not that person when I'm not sober. I'm using men to get whatever I need. So those are all, you know.

Mike (01:13:55.573)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:14:06.26)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Mara (01:14:13.106)
Those are the benefits of sobriety.

Mike (01:14:16.066)
Absolutely. Yeah. The, the peace of mind that, right. That we're not right. And we trust me because I was the same thing. Oh my God. I used to women and right, you know, and nothing was ever in my name. And right. But, you know, and then we resent them for us taking from them. I hated that. God, I fucking hated that.

Mara (01:14:24.394)
Yeah.

Bill (01:14:35.1)
Hahaha

Mara (01:14:35.542)
Oh, Hunter, how dare you be so weak to let me use you?

Mike (01:14:41.414)
I know what the fuck is wrong with you. Right. But yes, but now, right. I know there's, you know, I mean, yeah, the bank owns most of the house and the bank owns most of the car, but, but they're all in my name and I make those payments on time every month and you know, it's yes, it feels fucking great. Yes.

Mara (01:14:43.474)
I know, I know, God.

Bill (01:14:44.223)
Hehehehe

Mara (01:14:58.142)
100% yeah.

Mara (01:15:04.542)
It's scary to think of giving it up. Like even going out on dates, I feel guilty because it's like halfway through the date, I'm like, I know this isn't gonna go any further and now I feel like I'm using you. Like my conscience comes up, like I'm being a piece of shit. So let's go out for dessert except this time it's on me just because I feel, but you know what? That's what life is about. It's about going out on a date and like learning someone and even, you know, but communicating too and saying this isn't what I'm looking for, but.

Mike (01:15:09.84)
Mmm.

Mike (01:15:17.973)
Right.

Bill (01:15:23.324)
Hehehehe

Mike (01:15:23.886)
Hehehehehe

Mike (01:15:27.698)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Right?

Mara (01:15:33.118)
you know, A, B and C. Where in the past, well, I got dinner this time, maybe next time I can get some clothes. Maybe then the third time I can get a house. You know what I mean? Or let me get a trip out of this, dude. You know what I mean? Like I'm willing to ignore all the red flags. Yes, exactly. It's so, I can't even do that today. It's not even part of who I am to manipulate somebody to get what I need. I can't, I can't do it. So those are all the benefits.

Mike (01:15:40.699)
Uh huh.

Right. Hey, exactly. I'd be a bracelet. Nope. I know.

Bill (01:15:49.335)
Buy me a bracelet.

Mike (01:15:59.922)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:16:01.104)
Well, and yeah, with the relationships and stuff like that, and it's, it is, it's that communication and the, I was always, I don't know, I didn't realize that you could, and Mike and I talked about this, and I think we've talked about it on here, but until I got sober, it was probably not, I don't know, probably six, seven, eight years ago now, but figuring out that I can actually love people on different levels, whether it's the type of love that I can have for my, you know, my friend and my brother, Mike, versus, you know, even you guys,

you know, our group, you know, a people that we have here, you know, and then there's the love of my children. And then, you know, when you're talking about a dating situation, I don't have to, you don't have to fall in love and get married to, you know, to go out on a date, you know? And to your point is, if it's not working, having the balls these days and the integrity to tell the person, you know, this is what I'm looking for and this is what I'm not looking for.

And if it's not working out to be able to walk away and not fucking step on somebody's feelings or fucking drag them along and then, you know, six months later, the person fucking hates you. You know, I mean, it's, it's not worth it. Yeah. You know, just blowing up people's blowing up people's lives and, you know, all that stuff, and I mean, dating apps are a fucking mess. I mean, Mike and Chris got really fortunate, you know, because

Mara (01:17:09.474)
Yeah, for sure. Which is how my normal, yep, no.

Mike (01:17:24.934)
Yes, we did. No.

Mara (01:17:25.11)
That is not the norm.

Bill (01:17:26.124)
No, it's not. And I've had, the thing of it is that I've been on date often, often on with dating apps for years. And I've met a lot of wonderful people. I have not been in a long term relationship since I've been sober, but it's been by choice because I meet these wonderful women. But it's again, the reason I bring up that level of love thing is that I'm not going to commit to somebody or, you know, try to, try to hijack somebody's life. If I'm not in love with them, that's not a fear to them and assures fuck is not fair to me, you know.

Mara (01:17:56.819)
No, not at all.

Bill (01:17:57.608)
And on top of that too, I'm fine. You know, I can be on my own. I love being around people. I love the human connection. I love all of that stuff. You know, but it is, it's the, I could probably walk out, you know, walk out tomorrow and, you know, find somebody to use. I don't want to do that, you know, because I don't feel good about myself. It's just not the way we have to live anymore. And it's fucking wonderful, you know.

Mara (01:18:13.218)
Mm-mm.

Mike (01:18:19.214)
And one of the beautiful things is, yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

Mara (01:18:19.363)
And if God for...

No, you go. I talk.

Mike (01:18:24.39)
All right, well, I was just going to say one of the beautiful things about this is we're actually comfortable in our own skin these days and we can, we can be by ourselves and it's okay. We don't need to leech on to this other person to make our lives complete.

Bill (01:18:33.682)
Right.

Mara (01:18:34.87)
Oh.

Mara (01:18:40.422)
No, and then we are complete. No, it's weird and to know we are complete and not have my self-worth and my happiness contingent upon did I get a good morning, beautiful text? Cause I'll tell you what, I've gotten 5,000 of those texts and it wouldn't even impress me today. That's all you got? Like, come on. You know, and it's, but I would have sold my soul nine years ago for someone to call me baby and say good morning. Like, absolutely, what do you want me to do? But the other piece of that too is

Mike (01:18:58.674)
BLEP

Mike (01:19:06.002)
Mmm.

Mara (01:19:10.146)
being open about my sobriety today, if I were to get into a relationship with somebody that I don't really care about and then use them, now Alcoholics Anonymous looks like a shit show because I represent in every act that I do, I represent Alcoholics Anonymous. So I'm not gonna go on these dating apps and have, because I'm gonna have that conversation. I don't drink, I don't drink, why don't you drink? I'm in recovery, I choose not to drink, I'm in a 12 step program. If I am that asshole,

Bill (01:19:13.24)
Oh god yeah.

Mike (01:19:21.402)
Right. Mm-hmm. Hehehehehehehehehehe.

Bill (01:19:25.723)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:19:32.358)
Sure.

Mike (01:19:35.676)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (01:19:39.746)
that strings somebody along and then finally gets the ball six months later after I blew their life up to end it. Now AA is full of assholes, because I represent that. So that's another thing I have to take into consideration.

Mike (01:19:50.271)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. Yeah, that's why I didn't kill Jesus boy at the retreat.

Mara (01:19:54.772)
Yeah.

Bill (01:19:56.977)
Hahaha. Yeah?

Mara (01:20:02.093)
Oh man, that was a toughie. I heard it, I heard it.

Mike (01:20:03.054)
We told the story on here. So yeah, that was, but no, it was, it was, it wasn't, it wasn't, you know, yes, it was difficult in the moment for me and my feelings, but, um, no, but it really wasn't all that difficult because like you said, I was representing the program and I was practicing the principles in that particular affair. And it wasn't all that tough. I'd still wanted to throttle a little dick, but I did.

Bill (01:20:30.511)
Yeah.

Mara (01:20:31.378)
Yeah, I forgot to tell you it's a Christian camp, my bad.

Bill (01:20:35.28)
No, I mean, we, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, we, no, we figured that, we figured that out. He was just, he's not your typical person. I mean, you think that, like Mike said, usually a couple of words or however he put it, the couple of phrases, you know, usually shuts people up, but, right?

Mike (01:20:36.026)
Oh, it's what? Hell, I figured it out, but I pulled in.

Mara (01:20:40.51)
Yeah. Oops, my bad.

Mike (01:20:52.378)
Right. I've been doing this a while. I know how to shut them down pretty quickly. Gently. Yes. I know. It just not... that's not... It doesn't work for me. I don't believe in any of it. It's fine. It's good. I'm glad you do. I don't.

Mara (01:21:05.237)
Yeah.

Bill (01:21:07.088)
Right. Well, and that's the other thing too that I've appreciated about the retreat is that there was, especially getting into the certain groups and the certain steps when we start talking about higher powers and stuff like that. And I knew, and again, it comes up, I brought up the fact that I'm not an organized religion person. I think, Mike, you probably talked about being an atheist if I'm not mistaken. And I'm at best agnostic in

Mara (01:21:08.182)
You did good. You did good.

Mike (01:21:30.898)
I did.

Bill (01:21:34.14)
you know, we were able to have those conversations amongst the groups. And it's the same thing with going into a meeting that most I've, I can't even remember the last time that I've run across an intolerant person in, in Alcoholics Anonymous and are tell in a 12 step type of situation like that. That's like poo pooed, whatever somebody believes in for their higher power. That just, you know, the, the thing is just know what's not us and have a higher power. It doesn't matter what it is, you know, but there was

Again, great conversations, people that believe in the, whatever the mainstream, the organized religion God, and people that are atheist or agnostic or believe in a fucking tree, I don't know. It doesn't seem to matter and that's cool. It's having that, again, that openness and that trust that what you say in those rooms and at those retreats, you're not gonna get chastised for it. And that's that, again, fucking Jesus boy was the,

Mara (01:22:26.616)
Yeah.

Bill (01:22:31.252)
know, again, representing whatever the fuck he's representing and doing it in that way. You know, I mean, it just, those are, that's the type of person that I was more irritated because I don't want to be that guy. But I mean, he just wouldn't shut the fuck up. And I'm trying to eat, you know, that was the other thing. Just, dude, let's just, let's, let's just enjoy our breakfast, man. You know what? That's it.

Mike (01:22:46.726)
Hehehehe

Mara (01:22:48.152)
You.

Mara (01:22:52.902)
Yeah, he wasn't a carry, you know, what do we say? I don't remember that I remember. Well, to each their own if it works for him, God bless him, no pun intended. So or pun intended.

Bill (01:22:57.136)
It was the dick. I think that's what we said. Ha ha. Right.

Bill (01:23:06.552)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, so what else, Mara? What other, what other wonderful words of, I don't know, encouragement? I was going to say wisdom, but I don't know, whatever you want to call it. What else do you want to, I don't know, portray or get out to people out there?

Mike (01:23:07.364)
Right.

Mara (01:23:18.389)
Um.

Mara (01:23:24.482)
I guess I was thinking in the shower today where I do my best thinking and I have my most interesting arguments and all of the above. I was thinking like, what could I say to somebody? And it really, as wild as it seems, and as much as I hate cliches, because sometimes I feel like cliches can be dangerous, right, like a lot of times these cliches are treatment cliches, they're not AA cliches, that they're not in the big book, you know what I mean? Like...

Bill (01:23:27.881)
Hahaha!

Mike (01:23:48.012)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (01:23:50.634)
I could do a whole episode on that. Meeting makers make it 90 and 90, like, no, work steps. Go to, you know what I mean? Those are not, but anyways, don't get me started. But I was just thinking, like, if I were to say what my favorite cliche was or something that I wish I could have told Mara from nine years ago, it would really be to trust the process. That's it. And what does that mean? This too shall pass is another one. What does this too shall pass means?

Bill (01:23:53.736)
Ha ha!

Mike (01:23:58.234)
Right.

Mike (01:24:13.376)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (01:24:20.118)
Well, the good, the bad things are going to pass, but guess what? So are the good things. So you better get present in this moment because you're going to have some really hard times that are going to turn to good times, but you're also going to have some really good times that are going to turn to hard times. And if you're not in position with your support group, your higher power and your spiritual stamina to deal with these things, they are going to knock you to your knees.

Mike (01:24:25.083)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

Mara (01:24:49.142)
So when they say trust the process, it's like, you know, build that support group so that, and know that everything eventually is gonna be okay. It's already okay. You don't know it yet, but it is. It's already okay. You know what I mean? And it's like, it's just this wild experience that I did not, I did not understand what it meant until I came through it. Cause

Mike (01:24:59.474)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mara (01:25:13.206)
you know, that moment that I'm sitting in the sober house and I get the call that my husband is dead, my entire life changed. Everything that I knew, I had been with that man since I was 19 years old. I was now 38 and I was a widow. Like everything I knew to be real was gone in the blink of an eye, but everything was okay. Everything was already okay. You know what I mean? It was just, it's just...

Mike (01:25:33.743)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (01:25:37.838)
Trust that everything's gonna happen exactly the way it's supposed to. And I promise you that no amount of forcing, crying, pleading, dragging, holding onto is gonna change any of it. So you may as well just surrender and trust the process.

Mike (01:25:50.091)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:25:54.322)
Yep, beautiful.

Bill (01:25:54.688)
Right? Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, I know I can't see anything else to top that. So I know I don't think Mike, I don't think Mike can either. So I think we're done, right? No, but no, I know. But seriously, Mara, obviously, I mean, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on and thank you again for, you know, obviously, I know we both already said it, but thanks for inviting us to retreat. But we really appreciate you coming.

Mike (01:26:01.85)
Hell no.

Mara (01:26:07.254)
Well, good, I have to brush my teeth.

Mike (01:26:09.984)
right

Mara (01:26:21.134)
Aw, thank you for coming. That meant the world to me.

Bill (01:26:23.112)
Oh, it was again, there's the thanks is all on this side of the table. It really, really is. Yeah. But seriously, thank you. And, uh, um, you know, now, now is our time, you and Mark, me and Mara, we're gonna, we're going to be quiet cause it's Mike's time to close us out.

Mike (01:26:27.312)
Mm-hmm.

Mara (01:26:28.27)
Oh, I will fight ya. Sounds good to me.

Mike (01:26:39.762)
Mm-hmm, well thank you everyone for listening to another episode of Sober Not Mature. Thank you Mara for coming on here and sharing all your stuff with us and thank you for being our friend and all that good stuff and including us in some wonderful things that were bigger than us. That was great. And as always kids, go out there this week, do something nice for somebody else, be kind, be gentle, do something and don't tell anybody that you did it. And now it's time.

It is that time kids. It is time for you to fuck off. Then keep fucking off. Keep fucking off till you get to a gate with the sign on it saying, you cannot fuck off past here, climb over that gate, dream the impossible dream and keep fucking off forever.

Mara (01:27:28.162)
Hehehehehehe

Bill (01:27:29.345)
the

Mike (01:27:32.486)
That's right, because it means I'm done.

Mara (01:27:35.333)
Aww.

Mara (01:27:39.02)
You're welcome.

Mara (01:27:47.138)
We will. I hope you guys don't run out of lotion tonight. Oh, oh, you're welcome.

Mike (01:27:52.969)
We'll make our own!

Mara (01:27:56.911)
Oh, I can't.

Bill (01:27:57.932)
Wait, here it.

Mike (01:27:59.585)
See? I could go farther than you!

Bill (01:28:01.348)
Hang on, Mara, what's your address again? What is it again?

Mike (01:28:04.85)
I know where she's at. We'll be there in a couple minutes.

Mara (01:28:05.674)
I'm not a... He does!

Bill (01:28:06.864)
Yeah, we'll be over. All right, everyone. You know what, on that note, we're just gonna say bye, right? Bye.

Mara (01:28:14.978)
Bye.

SoberNotMature - Episode 94 (Mara S - Lotion For Sodriety)

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