SoberNotMature - Episode 97 (An Old Acquaintance We Forgot)

Bill (00:02.478)
Alright everyone, welcome back- oh wait, we're not at the halfway point yet are we? Okay wait, start over again, we'll get to why I felt like playing that little joke here. Okay, here we go! Alright everyone, welcome once again to another episode of Sober.Mature! Yeah, we're here!

Mike (00:08.815)
Hehe

Mike (00:12.274)
Take two.

Mike (00:22.632)
Oh Jesus. Yep. Here we are. This is fucking it, man.

Bill (00:30.994)
Oh, it's kind of funny and we could get into it, but if Mike wants to, but yeah, he had texted me, what time did you text me? It was early too. I was like, I don't know. Yeah. And you're like, Hey, it looks like I'm going to get off early, but might've fucked myself. And then I don't know what time it was when you texted back and you're like, yeah, I fucked myself.

Mike (00:38.616)
Uh, probably noon.

Mike (00:43.194)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (00:47.79)
Not around four when there was no way in hell. Yep. Exactly. So for anyone that's keeping score, it's a, we usually are regular times eight o'clock Eastern, um, you know, when it's just us, we try to do it a little earlier to get this shit out of the way. And, uh, right now it is eight 53 in the PM in the Eastern time zone.

Bill (01:05.656)
Ha ha.

Bill (01:12.699)
Yeah, that's why it's like literally right before Mike got on I'm like shit we normally be like it literally at the halfway point so I figured I'd fuck around a little bit plus you know whatever man it's a it's New Year's Eve weekend and I've been I've been touting this as the New Year's Eve extravaganza episode so yeah we're not gonna we're not gonna disappoint right?

Mike (01:28.751)
Right.

Mike (01:33.583)
right I've got my funny hat and my whistle and confetti uh-huh sure

Bill (01:36.558)
Ha ha

Bill (01:41.59)
Right, right, I have none of that. I've just got me, you know, me and my quick wit and my charm. Exactly. All right, so since yeah, I've got a ton of shit. I mean, obviously New Year's Eve stuff we could talk about. New Year's, end of the year shit if we want to. I got a bunch of shit. I got a little nitpick on myself, so we'll get to that. And then, yeah, my nit is going to be picked publicly. We're...

Mike (01:47.789)
I'm lying and so is he.

Mike (02:04.363)
Ooh, pick that knit.

Mike (02:09.169)
Nice!

Bill (02:09.942)
We're gonna publicly pick my nit. How's that? The final fucking episode of 2023, we're gonna bring this in with a fucking bang. You know what? I'm gonna write this down. We were number six on that feed spot list. Yeah, you know, okay, so just real quickly on that. When we first, when I first, I don't know, got approached by them, shit, probably a year ago.

Mike (02:12.626)
Wow.

Mike (02:28.159)
Oh yeah, right.

Mike (02:38.29)
Uh huh.

Bill (02:39.11)
know, it's the top 70 or whatever podcast that you should be following in 2023. And they're like, yeah, they're like, hey, you know, yeah, but it's sober podcast. I'm like, okay, that's kind of cool. So they're like, hey, you know, sign up for this, do this and that. So I made sure that we were all kind of like, quote unquote, registered with it. And then, you know, I told him, like, you know, we're I said, what number we have, like, I went through and I didn't see it. So we were at that point.

Mike (02:44.466)
Jesus, okay. I got time for that. Right. Uh-huh.

Bill (03:04.03)
number, I don't know, like 22 or 25 or something like that. And I like breezed over it because I don't think that they had our, our feed wasn't in there correct. So our picture wasn't in there. So I didn't see it right away. But, you know, we got up to, I think last year we got up to like, I don't know, number 10, number eight, whatever it was. And then I stopped kind of paying attention, but what they had asked us to do, they're like, they're like, hey, you know, tag us in your posts if you post about it. So I did.

Mike (03:14.472)
Ah, mm-hmm.

Bill (03:31.262)
And then I just kind of got away from it because we were up in the thirties and the forties and I'm like, fuck this, whatever. I'm like, we're not doing anything better, worse or nothing. It's just in it. Yeah. It's just. Right. That's, that's what I'm saying. We, our podcast was just indifferent and we're, you know, in the fucking forties or something. So whatever it was a couple of weeks ago, I looked and we were at number four. And I'm like, yeah. And now we're at number six, I think. So.

Mike (03:36.913)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (03:40.774)
Never. Right. Yeah. Well, kind of like this podcast.

Hehehe.

Mike (03:55.43)
Wow.

Bill (03:58.978)
But yeah, with quality content like this, we might get back up into the thirties again. But I think it's played on, what's weird is, it's based on number of plays, which we compared to some of these other podcasts that I know for a fact, are theoretically behind us on that list. Get more plays, have more listeners, followers, all that shit. And then, so it's supposed to be that and like a mix of followers, whatever. So I don't know how the fuck they do it, but I don't care. It's a little bit of a, I'm like, who?

Mike (04:02.298)
Hehehehehehehehehehe

Mike (04:11.043)
Mm.

Mike (04:15.666)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (04:26.998)
Look at us, we're on a list. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And again, if we keep up this quality content, maybe we can hit top five in 2024. Yep, hey, new year, new us, man. I fucking hate that so much. Yeah, I'm just waiting for people with the new year, new me bullshit, which.

Mike (04:29.011)
That's right. Top 10, baby, with a bullet.

Mike (04:42.06)
Yeah. Sure, why not?

Mike (04:48.783)
Ha! Yeah, me too.

Bill (04:55.946)
Again, if it's what you do, fine. I just, I don't know, neither one of us, I don't think we're into this corny shit, so. But anyhow, all right, so yeah. All this bullshit aside, your weird day aside, why don't we roll around some good thoughts in our head with a reading? Ha ha ha.

Mike (05:12.695)
All right, well, I'm being super goddamn lazy and it's the New Year's Eve spectacular. So I figured what the hell the bookmarks already there because it's there for tomorrow the 30th. So let's just go with the 31st and let's see what the hell it says because I didn't even look. So there you go. It's a quality preparation that keeps people coming back. All right.

Bill (05:30.434)
Ha ha!

Mike (05:39.258)
This is from God Grant Me, as usual, and this is December 31st. Celebrate to observe an occasion with appropriate ceremonies of respect, festivity, and rejoicing, the American Heritage Dictionary. New Year's Eve marks the end of one year and the beginning of another.

In the old days of our using, we use this day as an excuse to drink, use drugs and act wild and crazy. We did not really think about honoring the year that was ending or about welcoming the new year. Some recovery folks spend this evening with their families, playing games, watching videos and sharing plans for the coming year.

Other recovering folks invite recovery friends over for supper or go to a special 12-step meeting or a sober dance. Some attend special religious services, perhaps in a church, synagogue, mosque, or sweat lodge. The ending of the year is an important occasion to celebrate. We are alive and we are on the path of recovery. It has been an important year. Prayer for the day.

Higher power, thanks for the good things that have happened this year. Help me stay sober so that I can live the coming year in your love and protection. Today's action, oh great, more actions. I will use this night to honor the changes in my life. I will list 10 good or important things that have happened this year. I will find time to talk about them with someone tonight as I celebrate. I will remember to have fun.

be sober and to be safe.

Bill (07:25.666)
Well, look at that. Just by happenstance, you have somebody to talk to tonight. Ha ha ha. But you know, it's funny to be, right. Yeah, half of the action just kind of fell into your lap because we're here anyhow. So, hi there. Ha ha ha. And you know what? We'll talk about it. But we're going to be, we'll have plenty of people to talk to on New Year's Eve. So we'll get to that here in a minute too. But it was funny before you read the action.

Mike (07:30.374)
HAHAHAHAHAHA Alright! I'm halfway there!

Mike (07:39.122)
Yeah, hey, welcome to my lap.

Mike (07:48.89)
Yes, we will.

Bill (07:54.122)
the last part of that was talking about, you know, remembering and celebrating the good things, you know, this year. And then obviously the action was doing that because that was gonna be actually a question which we can get to in a second. But, you know, it says obviously it talked about us being on the path of recovery. I put a big question mark about this one, that people celebrate in a sweat lodge. Okay, you know, I mean, I know they're out there and hey, if you're gonna be in a sweat lodge on New Year's Eve, it's better than being in a

Mike (08:00.146)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (08:16.169)
Hehehehe

Bill (08:24.142)
all sweaty in the quarter bar or something like that. So yeah. And sometimes it was fun. We talked about that last year, some of the fun we had on New Year's Eve, but we lost that privilege. But then the first thing that I wrote down, and this is the one that... So I...

Mike (08:26.958)
Right. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I spent a few New Year's Eve fairly sweaty, but, um, right. Hehehehe. Chemically induced.

Mike (08:38.373)
Oh yeah.

Sure.

Mm-hmm.

Bill (08:51.21)
I don't want to say everyone, but I think everyone, not everyone says it, but I think everyone's heard it, that, you know, New Year's Eve is always called amateur night, you know, and it is a time when even though I think the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, if I'm not mistaken, is actually a bigger drinking holiday than New Year's Eve. And I think it's just because a lot of people come home, college kids are home, all this different stuff, people are traveling to a place where home is, get together, whatever.

Mike (09:07.14)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (09:11.098)
Right?

Mike (09:17.348)
Right.

Bill (09:20.726)
You know, there's a lot of people that normally don't go out, certainly don't drink that much and go fucking nuts, you know. But, you know, the thing that I wrote down was that we didn't look at, and I think what led up to it was, you know, rather than looking at, you know, what the years past was, what we have to celebrate the coming of a new year, this and that, it just gave us to, you know, an excuse to, I wrote down, drink, do drugs and be wild, but I would add the word more, drink more, do more drugs and be

Mike (09:25.218)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (09:45.37)
Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah.

Bill (09:50.746)
more wild. So with that, you know, a couple of times a year that, you know, I think New Year's Eve is one of them that, you know, I think that us people, you know, unless we get super fucking off the rails, I think that we can blend in a little bit more on a, on an amateur night like that, that we could during the year, don't you think?

Mike (09:51.866)
Right, exactly.

Mike (10:06.354)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (10:14.652)
Oh yeah, right. You know, yeah, St. Patrick's Day, Cinco de Mayo, Halloween, right. All those party holidays. Oh yeah, exactly. You know, we're not quite as stupid as we usually are or we don't appear to be anyway because everybody else is stupid too.

Bill (10:35.286)
Right. Yeah. It's not as glaring because, you know, I mean, it is, it's one of those times when, and once again, unless, and I always drank, you know, certainly more, you know, than I normally would. But that's the thing. And I talked about this before, like when Dawn and I got together, she and I met at this outing, you know, from people that she worked with, and they were one of my clients of the company I worked for.

Mike (10:37.819)
Right.

Mike (10:45.193)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (11:01.586)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (11:02.934)
So that's how I met her and it's like every, not every Thursday, but I think once a month, they did, you know, kind of like an outing, have some food, have some drinks, be out, whatever. So that's where I met her at one of those things. And then she started showing up at those more often and that's, we ended up getting together, blah, blah. So she and I went out in those early days quite a bit, you know, went out with friends and went to clubs and partied and did all those things. But the key thing there, and I think this is the biggest difference between, you know, sometimes,

Mike (11:11.022)
Right? Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (11:23.205)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (11:32.258)
people like you and I and these normies is that she knew when the party was done, I never did. It didn't matter.

Mike (11:36.623)
Uh-huh.

Right. Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, um, for me, you know, I'm trying to, I'm trying to remember, but, um, I mean, yeah, the last, uh, probably four or five or six or, you know, somewhere in their new year's eves when I was still out there, I mean, I didn't go out. I didn't, I knew better at that point.

Yeah, it was, it was just another fucking night, man. And I just, you know, um, I may have drank more, but probably not. I probably just drank the way I always drank. And, and, um, yeah. And I mean, I, I stayed in, I, again, I knew better, you know, there's no point in me going out. I was going to get fucking blind drunk, you know, anyway. So yeah, you know, you know, I might, you know, stay up and watch stroke

Bill (12:17.44)
Ha!

Mike (12:35.598)
Yeah. Other than that, you know, it was, it was regular. It was another night, man. It was another night. I needed to medicate myself into a stupor. Yeah.

Bill (12:44.842)
Yeah. And you know what? I don't. Don and I used to go out on New Year's Eve, and I know you and I talked about a couple of those last year. And there was a so there was there was times I went out on New Year's Eve. But I mean, when after Kimmy's mom and I split, so after Pam and I split years ago and then before Don and I got together, I used to come down to Indiana and then I'd hang out with Kathy and Mark. We just hang out, play games. And, you know, sometimes there'd be a couple of friends of theirs over whatever. But, you know, we'd always stay in. But yeah, we just hang out and play games and drink.

Mike (12:51.334)
Right?

Mike (12:55.749)
Oh sure.

Mike (13:06.768)
Right.

Mike (13:12.43)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (13:14.37)
You know what I mean? But it was, we were, you know, at home or at a home rather than, you know, being out someplace. But I don't know. I mean, going out for New Year's Eve, there was, and we've talked about this before. We'd be lying if we said we didn't have, there was some New Year's Eve's and some regular times and all that stuff that were, they were a ton of fucking fun and nobody got in trouble. And, you know, no fights, no arguments, no, no DUIs.

Mike (13:14.991)
Right.

Mike (13:19.794)
Sure. Yeah.

Mike (13:36.298)
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Right. No jail or death. Right.

Bill (13:43.658)
No jails, institutions or death. But again, we lost that privilege, which I believe is said exactly like that in the big book at some point, right? Or at some point in there. Yeah, we just lost that privilege. But what about that? I mean, like right off the top of your head, I mean, we don't have to sit here and like make a list of 10 fucking things, but I mean, what do you think? I mean, off the top of your head, any?

Mike (13:56.914)
Yep. Yeah.

Mike (14:01.202)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (14:08.762)
Mm.

Bill (14:12.478)
Any like pinpoint things this year that, um, you know, I know it's kind of corny like 2023, but I don't know that we're just moments, you know.

Mike (14:14.758)
this year right

Mike (14:20.718)
Um, I mean, right. I mean, it's all pretty fucking good. You know, um, yeah, you know, I mean, I'm grateful for tons of stuff. And I, you know, I do that every damn night. Um, it was a year. It wasn't anything spectacular, but you know, it wasn't anything awful either. I like being in the middle. That's kind of the way I live now. And, um, yeah, if I comfort in it, yeah, there's tons of stuff I'm grateful for. You know, people and.

Bill (14:22.975)
I know, it's just...

Mike (14:50.916)
I've done and absolutely, you know, yeah, it was, it was a good year. It wasn't spectacular. It certainly wasn't awful. Yeah.

Mike (15:12.278)
No, they're just aren't anymore. Right. Absolutely.

Bill (15:13.506)
Right. Yeah,

Mike (15:26.03)
Right. Yeah. Well, you know, we, we got through it, doing the stuff that we know how to do because we've been practicing to do it. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. It was, it was awful, but it was, it was also, you know, given the time and the space and looking back, it was, um, I don't know if pride's the right word, but, you know, yeah, I am a little, you know, proud that we, you know, we did some good work on there here and we, we were there for the family and, you know, yeah.

Bill (15:31.594)
Yeah. Yep.

Mike (15:55.91)
No, it was, yeah, you know, even, even the awful stuff's not that bad anymore.

Bill (16:01.974)
Right. Well, and that's the thing that episode, and I've said it a number of times, and we've had, you know, we talk about Dr. Sarah's episode, all of our Cleveland friends, and we've had so much fun with a lot of these guests. But, you know, that episode and the episode afterwards, but mainly, you know, that first one we did, I mean, I'm proud of that episode. I am, you know, I'm proud of the fact that, you know, that we chose to do it, you know, for all the right reasons and, you know, had a chance to get that out there.

Mike (16:10.866)
Mm-hmm. Great. Mm-hmm.

Mike (16:19.054)
Mm hmm. Right.

Right?

Mike (16:27.342)
Mm hmm. Right.

Bill (16:31.918)
And we talked about it before, but I've never had that type of outlet. I've written stuff. And I think I mentioned this before that a lot of my articles I wrote from a business sense were personal things I put into a business spin so I can look back on those and that used to be my, I don't know, kind of my outlet, you know, where this is now, but so it was a, it was a great outlet, but it had a great opportunity to just, you know, just open that shit up, you know? And.

Mike (16:38.055)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (16:49.941)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (16:58.51)
Absolutely. Yeah. Well, and I mean, and, you know, like all this shit, you know, try to be an example and, you know, look, yes, this really bad thing happened. And, and look how, you know, you can walk through it sober and, and with compassion and, you know, not make it all about you and yeah, which is, which is very different for us, you know, I mean, there were certainly times in my past were, um,

I was selfish in the middle of shit like that. I wasn't there for other people and yeah, yeah. Anyway. Ha ha ha.

Bill (17:35.495)
No, I know, I know, I agree. I agree with you wholeheartedly. And you know, this year kind of the same thing. I mean, the one high point to me, and you know, even though this, quitting my job was huge for me, it wasn't just a matter of getting out of that, just realizing, and it's still it baffles me that, you know, the health part of it, the heartburn and all those sort of things, I didn't realize I was so fucking stressed out over it. So and that was a good thing. Did I tell you that they're out of business now?

Mike (17:47.737)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (17:57.386)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (18:03.291)
No.

Bill (18:04.062)
Yeah, okay, so, sideline. So short story here, I don't know, a week ago, two weeks ago, a month ago, the days fucking blend. I get a message from James, who was our assistant collection manager. So, you know, nice guy. And he and I worked very well together, just a good dude. So he texted me and he's like, hey, do you mind if I use you for a reference? And I said, no, I said, absolutely. And I let it sit for a minute and he didn't say anything else because he just said thank you. And I'm like, I said, so.

Mike (18:15.578)
Yeah, yeah, right. Mm-hmm.

Mike (18:28.021)
Right?

Bill (18:33.67)
I like 10 minutes later, I'm like, well, I was, you know, gonna ask you how things were going, but hang on one second.

Mike (18:40.327)
Mm-hmm. Let me clear my throat.

Bill (18:44.546)
Damn it. It's like right before we got on here, I started to get like kind of almost a sinacy thing. So sorry about that. But so I texted him back. I'm like, you know, just gonna ask you how things are going, but that's kind of a good indication. And he goes, oh, he goes, you don't know. And I'm like, I don't know what. And they were texting and he said, yeah. He goes, the business closed. Craig, who was the owner, said that he couldn't afford to keep it open based on the main client had lowered their fees, which they did that like a year prior. And so he,

Mike (18:49.578)
Mmm. All right.

Mike (18:56.578)
Mm-hmm. Hehehehe.

Mike (19:05.307)
Right.

Mike (19:11.581)
Duh! Mm-hmm. Right.

Bill (19:14.71)
He just shut the doors end of October. And I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? So yeah, after whatever it was, 25 years. And, and I was just kind of curious because I didn't do a lot of digging into it. I mean, nothing was on like LinkedIn or anything like that, or nobody, nobody yippee yapped about it, but, um, you know, you can look at like company registrations and things like that. And I was just kind of curious. I'm like, think of God, did he just close the doors and not even try to sell it? And yeah, it just, the

Mike (19:16.531)
Huh? Wow.

Mike (19:21.851)
Yeah?

Mike (19:29.114)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mike (19:35.538)
Sure.

Mike (19:41.195)
Right. Yeah.

Bill (19:42.766)
The LLC, the company is dissolved, done. I was just like, I was fucking blown away. But so anyhow, so quitting that and getting out of that situation. So that I would have been out of a job at the end of October anyhow, but that doesn't matter. You know, because doing that and making that choice was great. Now I talked about the coaching thing and I built this whole thing that hasn't flourished, you know. And I could easily look at that.

Mike (19:45.458)
Wow.

Mike (19:56.848)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Mike (20:07.847)
Right?

Bill (20:10.542)
part of it, it's like I look at part of them like, God damn, I wish that I'm like, nah, fuck it. Cause what I did was I did something that I had a goal, something I wanted to put together and I did it. And even though it didn't flourish, maybe it will in the future, maybe it won't. Little bit of money, little bit of time, but I was able to build this whole thing. And I was like, this is kind of cool.

Mike (20:29.49)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (20:36.854)
The only thing that, you know, there's things maybe, and I won't even get into it, probably things I could have done a little bit differently, but it doesn't matter. So I don't consider it, even though it didn't flourish, I don't consider it a failure. It's a learning experience and it's an opportunity. It was something for me to build and realize that, hey, I have the ability to do that. So I did, you know? But you know, the only other thing, I mean, now I'm obviously trying to get back into the full-time job market and it's fucking hard out there, you know? And, you know, it's...

Mike (20:42.116)
Mm.

Mike (20:55.41)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (21:04.017)
Right?

Bill (21:06.654)
I've been, and again, not that I don't need to get into all this different shit, but let's just say it's been a challenge, but this has been going back to what we talk about that somebody else's will not mine. I keep doing the work, which I do it every day. And as long as I keep doing that, then one way or the other shit's going to work out. And usually what happens is I get squeezed and fucking squeezed and fucking squeezed to the point where it's like.

Mike (21:14.64)
You're safe.

Mike (21:26.802)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (21:32.21)
Hm. Mm-hmm.

Bill (21:35.614)
And all of a sudden shit happens. You know, this is, I'm in the sometimes slowly part of my process right now and I don't like it, okay. You know, I never do, but I still have faith, you know, and it is what it is and it's gonna work out. But again, I don't look at any of this shit as being bad things, you know. I don't look at this as a bad year. I've seen a lot of people post, and not just one or two,

Mike (21:41.89)
Right.

Mike (21:49.839)
Absolutely.

Mike (21:57.829)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (22:03.73)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (22:03.826)
Instagram, Facebook, I've seen it on Twitter or X-posts, whatever you want to call them, even on LinkedIn saying that, you know, 2023 has been such a tough year, but you know, 2024 is gonna be and I'm like, was it really? I mean what? I mean some shit's going on in the world. I get all that and some weird stuff and blah blah, but I know and that's what I was thinking. I'm like 2020 I get, 2021 I get. Those were those were fucked up years on a

Mike (22:21.902)
Right. Shit's always going on in the world.

Hehehe

Mike (22:30.866)
Uh, right. That, yeah. I mean, I guess, I don't know. I think those weren't all that bad either. Really? I mean, you know, personally, I kind of liked it, you know, fewer people out there I had to deal with and, uh, you know, more time at home. And I was, I didn't mind it all that much at all.

Bill (22:33.418)
you know, for everyone.

Bill (22:47.062)
Hahaha!

Bill (22:57.81)
Oh, I agree. You know, cause like you worked through the entire time, I worked through the entire time. It didn't really interrupt my, except for seeing family and things like that, that sort of thing, you know, it took away. So I, but I understand that more than I do. I just, I don't understand what was the big thing. 2023, I don't know, it just was, I don't think it was that, it was a year, you know? So, yeah.

Mike (23:03.419)
Yup.

Mike (23:07.458)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Mike (23:18.158)
Nah, it was. Yeah. And hey, guess what? We got through it. We're still here. And sober. Woohoo.

Bill (23:24.81)
Right, right. And still on the other thing I wrote down, the path of recovery. Because I wrote that down too, you know. But yeah, I don't know, just as I was thinking about that, it just reminded me of these posts about that. And again, for the life of me, yes, ups and downs and whatever. But this summer, and you and I go into the Foo Fighters, I took those trips. I spent time with my kids and I spent time with my grandson. And I had

Mike (23:31.286)
Mm-hmm. Yup.

Mike (23:43.986)
Mm. Right?

Bill (23:53.37)
I had a wonderful time. I look at it this way too. So I'm going through a, let's call it a challenge right now, if you don't get back into that, but fuck it, it was worth it. I mean, I did. It was an opportunity to almost, you know, kind of like, and I hate to use the term reset, but maybe it was, you know? I didn't realize what the, like I said, the stress and whatever, I don't know, whatever it is, none of it's bad.

Mike (23:55.332)
Huh?

Mike (24:01.635)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (24:04.97)
Right. Yeah.

Mike (24:15.442)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (24:21.231)
Yeah.

Bill (24:22.494)
It's not a bad thing. So.

Mike (24:23.778)
It's not, yeah, nothing is ever that bad.

Bill (24:26.794)
Right. Yeah, but you know, think about it. Think about 14 years ago. I mean, you know, I mean, everything was fucking bad.

Mike (24:31.658)
Oh, yeah. Yeah, pretty much. Right. Exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, going through whatever these little hills and valleys, it's no big fucking deal at all.

Bill (24:43.178)
Right. Yeah. So, okay. So, the wrap up on that is, it was good reading, I mean, first of all, but the wrap up on that is that you and I are kind of in the middle. Right.

Mike (24:50.002)
Sure.

Mike (24:54.458)
We are, and that's where we like it. Yep. Never too high, never too low. Uh-huh.

Bill (24:59.882)
Right, exactly where we should be.

Mike (25:02.595)
Yep, exactly.

Bill (25:04.382)
So we can talk about New Year's Eve here in a minute too. She wanted me to, let me go through my little nitpick real quick, because I did it while we were talking. I noticed it last episode, and I'm sure, I know for a fact I do it a lot. But when I'm talking, if I reiterate something, I say, and again, then I'll talk and again. So.

Mike (25:11.29)
Alright, pick that nit!

Mike (25:27.876)
Uh-huh.

Bill (25:30.258)
I noticed it when I was listening to last week's episode and it was one of those things that I focused it on and now I've searched the second word. So the word again was said 73 times in last week's episode. Okay. Right. It's fucking a lot, right? And I heard as I was going through, I think I...

Mike (25:33.799)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mike (25:40.508)
Hehehehehehehehehehe

Mike (25:44.975)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (25:48.144)
Wow.

Yeah, it is.

Bill (25:56.262)
You said it one time after I said it, I think, which is the only reason I noticed it. But I don't think you might. I think 71 of those are mine.

Mike (26:01.304)
Okay.

Mike (26:07.862)
Well, how about, hey, let's give it the benefit of the doubt and say 69 of them were yours.

Bill (26:13.427)
Oh, I like that even better. But so I, and this has the fact that this is happening at the end of the year going into the new year, I just, I need to make a declaration that has nothing to do that it's a new year. I was listening to an episode last week and it fucking irritated me. So I got to tell a short story about years ago when, when this stuff started to come into my mind, it involved part of it involves alcohol. So it's relatable. Okay. Now.

Mike (26:15.648)
Yeah.

Mike (26:19.538)
I'm out.

Mike (26:22.959)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (26:29.717)
Mm-hmm. Right. Ah.

Mike (26:37.205)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Bill (26:41.498)
I went through a program and literally this was got 20, 22 little, yeah, 22 years ago. It was September of 2000, I don't know, got 23 years ago. So September of 2000, because Don was pregnant with Derek at the time. And I went to, I got involved in this program. It was a national organization for the Collectors Association. And I got the opportunity to become an instructor, you know. And I think I've mentioned that before.

you and I, but I don't know if I talked about it on here. But, so it's a, it's basically what we did at that time. So much of this stuff is done online anymore. I don't even think they have instructors that travel anymore. I don't know. But at that time, that's all they had. So there was literally, it was a big deal. And I, I'm not a big deal, but I got involved in something that was a big deal. I was one of only like 22 people all across the country that was

Mike (27:10.354)
Mm hmm. Yeah. Right.

Mike (27:22.821)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (27:33.621)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (27:38.45)
certified as an instructor. So it was kind of a big, you know, and something I, huge professional accomplishment for me and probably one of the greatest professional things I ever went through, the training and all that stuff, because it led into a lot of other things kind of where my story comes in. So we fly to Minneapolis. I was there. I ended up kind of a quick sideline. So Dawn's pregnant with Derek. You're not allowed to have cell phones.

Mike (27:43.356)
Yeah.

Mike (27:50.916)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (28:04.246)
She's literally like two weeks away from his due date because he was a little late, I think. And they actually, yeah, they're like, you know, I'm like, my wife's pregnant. I'm like, I need to know what my son happens to be born early, whatever the deal is. Can't have a cell phone on that was against the policy. I was allowed to bring a pager. Okay, and this is 23 years ago. Yeah. Fucking AT&T. I think we had to spend whatever, I don't know. It was like a year. If you couldn't just get one temporarily, I had to pay for one like.

Mike (28:10.642)
I can see that. Yeah.

Mike (28:17.586)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (28:23.984)
Ooh, right?

Mike (28:32.658)
Sure.

Bill (28:34.158)
25 bucks a month for a fucking year is ridiculous, but he wasn't born while I was gone, but that was just another thing that happened. So we get there on a Saturday and we have this reception, this reception dinner and stuff like that. And all the instructors are gonna go through the training and all that stuff, all the new instructors. So basically they're like, okay, after dinner, hang out for a little while, but make sure you get rest. I mean, we were starting training at like seven the next morning, starting on a Sunday.

Mike (28:36.498)
Mmm.

Mike (28:41.144)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (29:00.41)
Okay.

Bill (29:01.446)
at the at the actual office of the American Collectors Association. They actually took us there on a Sunday on purpose because no one was there. So they're like, I get to bed early, get some rest. Well, of course, I sit down, you know, at the at the bar in the hotel with a couple of guys, have a drink. They fucking close down the bar. I was just fucking wrecked. So there's my alcohol part, but the.

Mike (29:08.134)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (29:16.934)
Course.

Of course. Mm-hmm.

Bill (29:25.878)
We were there Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, half a day on Wednesday. And one of the things we did, we did these three presentations. First one was three to five minutes, next one was five to 10, and then the final exam, quote unquote, was a 15 minute presentation. And part of what they did was they videotaped you, but they also would listen to you. And they listened for what they called crutch words. The word um, yeah. And...

Mike (29:50.586)
Yeah, verbal crutches, right.

Bill (29:53.41)
They counted in my first presentation, which again, three to five minutes, I said the word um, some ungodly amount of times. And I'm like, are you serious? I'm like, yeah, they're like, here's the thing. And this is where I learned this. And this is why it irritated me with the again part, is that they said when you're training somebody, and I understand this, they said, if you have a tick, a mannerism, a word, something like that, if somebody picks up on it, they will focus only on that and they lose, the conversation is lost.

Mike (29:57.542)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (30:09.65)
Hehehehe

Mike (30:19.13)
Mm-hmm. Yup.

Bill (30:23.638)
And I'm like, I don't want to do that, you know, because I'm trying to teach people. And the same thing, even though we fuck around a lot, we are trying to get out at least a little bit of a message. So I don't want to have one of these things. So I went back to my room that night. And the next one was at like that 10 minute presentation. I went, I did it over and over and over again until I could do it without saying the word, um.

Mike (30:27.026)
Uh huh.

Mike (30:32.594)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Bill (30:50.814)
And I would go through however long it was. I'd get three minutes into it, I'd say the word um, and I'm like, fuck me, and I'd start over. I wouldn't let myself start from there, I'd start over. So the next day I go back and I do this presentation, not in um, in the entire thing, and the two main people that were kind of greeting us, the dude looks at me and he's like, you didn't say it at all. He goes, how in the world did you do that? So this goes back to us.

Mike (31:01.097)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (31:10.537)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (31:19.966)
us people sometimes being very determined and all sort of things. And that was, I mean, I know it now. That was my perfectionist, you know, alcoholic behavior that I needed to get it right. But I did and I taught myself something that I could do that. So my whole point with that is now I'm on a fucking mission. If you hear me say the word, the word, unless it's a general conversation where the person...

Mike (31:21.831)
Mm-hmm. Hehe

Mike (31:30.972)
Right.

Mike (31:42.725)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (31:46.326)
like Fonzie saying wrong.

Ruh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,

Mike (32:00.215)
Hey now!

Bill (32:01.1)
Rrrr

Mike (32:03.387)
Uh-huh.

Mike (32:08.838)
Mm-hmm. And again. Mm-hmm. All right.

Oooo

Bill (32:17.802)
And then that really has nothing to do with it. It does, but it just, it fucking pisses me off so much. It just, it really irritated me because once I heard it, I'm like, I can't unhear it, you know?

Mike (32:21.65)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (32:28.038)
Uh huh, yeah, I know, right. I mean, you know, I got them too, and I kinda don't care. But, um. Hey, hey, hey.

Bill (32:34.126)
All right. Well, and you and I, you and I, because I listen to all the episodes. I know you don't, you know, but which is fine. You and I both have our things, but everyone does in this general conversation, but there's certain things that are a lot stronger than others, you know, when it comes to these fucking things. And that one just came out really, it's just too much, you know, just too much. So, but oh, here's the good news though. I'll let you guess.

Mike (32:46.591)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Mike (32:53.071)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (32:58.105)
Yeah. All right.

Mm-hmm.

Bill (33:03.818)
Cause I did look up the word fuck of course, cause I had to in last week's episode. So how many times we said, I said the other word 73 times. How many times did we say that we're stop? Sorry. Okay. 69.

Mike (33:06.531)
Of course. Ah.

Mike (33:24.159)
Hehe

Bill (33:28.354)
haha

Bill (33:33.35)
Oh, that's low. That's low. You're about, let me see, let's do the math. You're about, go up about 30 some. Ha ha ha.

Mike (33:36.179)
Oh, really? Okay.

Mike (33:45.622)
Re-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! 169?

Bill (33:48.758)
179. I looked at that and I'm like, really? I actually erased it and I typed it in again. I'm like, that's got to be something wrong. Did it add the other word? No, 179. Right, which I think that might be our record. But yeah, before it was...

Mike (33:51.633)
Ooh, shit!

Mike (33:58.102)
Uh huh. Glitch in the matrix.

Mike (34:08.198)
Yeah, I think so. I don't, we're definitely not beating it this time because we've been, yeah. Fuck, fuck, fuck.

Bill (34:17.314)
But yeah, it was, I think the last one was in the 160s. But anyhow, oh, real quick. So you and I have already talked about the other gentleman that approached us. So we'll talk about him when I'm there. But remember the individual that I had said that kind of approaches about being on the podcast, but then you guys can't swear and I'll get back to you type of thing, and she never did? So yeah, and then she had messaged me about something just...

Mike (34:31.44)
Okay.

Mike (34:40.206)
Hmm. All right.

Bill (34:45.598)
one of the things we post and I'm like, oh, we were talking about you. And she's like, oh, did you tell me to go fuck myself? I'm like, no, no. And nope. So then we were going back and forth about something else. I forget what else she messaged me about. Oh, she wants us, you know, again, to be on the podcast. So, and I'm like, cool, just let me know. They only do one a month, which is, you know, I'm like, okay. She's, but she's got people booked. I mean, like right now, I think through like September.

Mike (34:51.604)
Hehe

Mike (35:01.585)
Okay.

Mike (35:05.57)
Mm hmm. Slackers.

Bill (35:12.738)
But I said, here's the deal. I said, as it gets closer, let us know. I promise you, we will not swear. And she's like, I might give you guys an even just one each, I can edit it out. And I'm like, we're not gonna make you edit it. We know how to be nice if we need to.

Mike (35:12.75)
Okay.

Mike (35:16.635)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mike (35:24.106)
Hehehehehehe

Right. I, you know, right. I go on broadcast radio. I mean, on, at a, at a Jesuit college.

Bill (35:31.65)
Hahaha

Bill (35:36.266)
Right. And we do go out in public and speak to people and we don't swear. But I told her too, because she wrote a book and I can't remember the title of it, but I said, are you still promoting your book? And I said, do you think our listeners would benefit from it? Because I said, well, why don't you come on our podcast too? We'll help you promote the book. So she's going to get back to me. I told her, I said, just email me a couple of things. I'll forward it to Mike. I think she'd be good. She's cool. And-

Mike (35:40.706)
Yes. Right.

Bill (36:05.202)
And I said, I think we've had three, three people or four people now, three for sure. Dr. Sarah, Travis, Geo that had books. I think those are the three.

Mike (36:10.13)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (36:14.242)
Mm-hmm. Right, I think there's one more, but anyway, right. Yeah.

Bill (36:17.578)
It seems like it. But I told her, I said, we don't mind. You know, having that, and I said, give you a chance to promote it, so she's gonna get back to me. But I just thought it was kind of funny because she's like, I'll give you each one. I said, no, no. I said, we know how to act right if we need to. Yeah.

Mike (36:22.737)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (36:31.215)
Hehe

Mike (36:34.598)
That's right. Don't, please don't throw your pity fucks at us. Hey.

Bill (36:37.826)
Yeah

Bill (36:41.775)
A pity fuck, I like that. I like that. A pity fuck. But, um, all right. So the reading we're all good on. Um, we talked about, we talked about that word and then a bunch of fucks. Uh, we'll just add a couple more fucks in here to pad this fucking episode. Um, and fucking A right. So I don't know. Do you want to just take a break now and then we can talk about new receive? Let's just, yeah, let's get this. Let's get this fucking thing out of the way too. God.

Mike (36:50.983)
Well...

Mike (36:57.569)
Right? That's right. Fucking A.

Mike (37:04.546)
Yeah, let's do it. All right. Well, we'll be back with more fucking great fucking content right after this word from our fucking sponsor.

Bill (37:26.166)
All right, everyone, welcome fucking back. Yeah, that I think that added a couple more. I think we're going to be good. So but yeah, so I think we got New Year's Eve to talk about. I got other shit to talk about, too. But speaking of, you know, New Year stuff and, you know, old days and partying and acting a fool, we're still going to party and act the fool. We're just going to do it with a bunch of sober people. Yeah, so.

Mike (37:29.993)
Hi there.

Mike (37:44.527)
Uh huh.

Mike (37:50.542)
Oh, absolutely. We are. Hehehehehehehehe.

Bill (37:54.774)
Michael and Megan, which we've had both of them on, you guys all know them, you know, Crazy Megan and our friend Michael. When did they start doing that? I guess that's my first question. Every year they host a poker thing.

Mike (37:57.292)
Mm-hmm. We have, yep.

Mike (38:07.17)
Right. Yeah. Well, the first, the first poker game was on New Year's Eve. Um, it was, I know it's actually talking to my boss about this today. Um, and I believe I want to say it was 10 years ago. Yeah.

Bill (38:22.29)
Okay, and that would make sense because, well, first of all, I'm going out, I'm going out to Ohio tomorrow because I'm, it'll be the first one as far as any you and I can remember, I don't think I've ever been there. And so it would have been, I think, the year, because I moved back to Wisconsin July of 13, so if it was that year, then that would make perfect sense, because I was back, I was back in September, I was back in November for their wedding, and I was back, I think, for

Mike (38:31.307)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (38:36.41)
I don't think so. No.

Mike (38:42.879)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Bill (38:50.914)
Might have been back for Thanksgiving. I don't know. I was back to Ohio like three times within that, that four or five month period. So I know I didn't come back.

Mike (38:57.21)
Yeah, that does actually kind of, I think, line up because, uh, yeah, I think it was the first that first thing you received that they were married. You know, they were still, they were still in that apartment, um, over an old bar down in that little Italian neighborhood right on the coast there. Yeah. But I know that's where it was. And, and we made the mistake of not limiting the buy-ins and we played until six in the morning.

Bill (39:04.974)
Alright.

Bill (39:23.472)
right yeah i think we're you were you were talking about that with michael cuz i knew for a

Mike (39:28.945)
I'm pretty sure that's the last time I drove home when the sun was coming up.

Bill (39:32.782)
Right. And the first time since you had been sober, since you did that, I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah, I have no desire to, like we were talking about, I have no desire to, excuse me, stay up all night. I think the last time that I was up late, like four in the morning or something like that, was coming back. And it would have been that first year, I think, because we went to my dad's cousin, Paul, his son got married down in Columbus.

Mike (39:37.058)
Absolutely.

Mike (39:46.127)
Hmm, no.

Mike (39:51.858)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (40:01.514)
So we were in Cleveland that weekend and then went down to Columbus and I left. Kathy was going back to mom's that night. I'm like, I didn't wanna drive back. It was Labor Day weekend. I didn't wanna drive back and deal with the traffic on Monday. I left Cleveland at like eight o'clock at night or nine o'clock at night and got back to Madison. And I think it was, it was like fucking four in the morning but I'm like, I don't know, I went home. I think I had grabbed a sandwich or something to eat.

Mike (40:16.497)
Right.

Mike (40:21.806)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (40:31.19)
fucking went to bed until like one, you know, but, but yeah, other than that, I don't think I've, I don't think I've been up all night, but I don't think we're gonna stay up all night. But I'm, I'm really looking forward to it because I haven't done, well, I mean, last year we went out to, we went out to dinner. That was nice. And Kathy and I hit up the casino, which was nice. It was fun, you know, just something out of the ordinary, but I don't know, it'll be, it just hasn't been convenient, I don't think for me to

Mike (40:33.862)
Right.

Mike (40:40.767)
Mm. Yeah.

Bill (40:57.546)
make it back because I was thinking, you know, in 10 years it just never lined up for me to come back, you know?

Mike (41:00.818)
Yeah. Right. Well, um, yeah, shit. I don't even, I don't even remember what I did last year.

Bill (41:08.139)
Right.

Mike (41:11.539)
Um, yeah, I know I didn't.

I think they had a game and I think I had to miss it for some reason. Yeah. I don't know, but I, yeah. Uh, it's been a couple of years since we've done, you know, cause the pandemic and stuff it's yeah. Definitely been a couple of years since I've played poker with them. Yeah. On New Year's Eve. So it's yeah, I'm looking forward to it too. It's going to be fun.

Bill (41:35.882)
Yeah, it'll be, I just thought it'd be a lot, I know it'll be a lot of fun. But, and I know for, I was just thinking back too, that there was a number of years when we used to come back to Cleveland for Christmas. So we'd be in Cleveland at Christmas and then, I go back home, I mean, I knew I wouldn't just drive all the way back for New Year's Eve. So I'm sure just logistically it didn't work out, but I don't know, I'm just, I'm excited to go. I'm excited to just hang out and actually, sit there and do something with a group of people on.

Mike (41:47.964)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (41:56.914)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (42:03.126)
New Year's Eve. I think it'll be a lot of fun. I know it will be a lot of fun. I don't think it will be. But yeah, so that's our New Year's Eve plans. But there's a, so you get your home group though. So we got to figure out timing with that.

Mike (42:04.918)
Mm hmm. It will. Right.

Mike (42:15.81)
I do. Yeah. I, right. I, I don't, I'm, I'm thinking about it today. Actually, I may go hang out and set up and stuff, and I might not stay for the whole meeting. Yeah. I'm thinking, cause they, um, they were talking about starting the card game at nine. So if I like hang out and then the meeting gets started and stuff, and I just duck out, I should be out there by nine. So yeah, I think, I think that's what I'm going to do.

Bill (42:41.902)
Okay, yeah, and it's, I mean, whatever works, because I know that you were talking about maybe all of us hitting the meeting. I mean, whatever, if you're only gonna do that, then I don't know, we'll figure it out, but that sounds good. I was just, you and I sit there making out our plans here, which we do anyhow, but the more I thought about it, I'm like, yeah, we don't need to involve everyone. You know what, fuck you, everyone. You don't need to know what we're doing. All right, so this is what we're doing.

Mike (42:52.727)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mike (42:57.81)
Right.

Mike (43:03.046)
You need to be involved. You need to know what we're doing. We need to be honest and open and accountable.

Mike (43:11.534)
Hehe

Bill (43:12.95)
But yeah, so I'm heading out tomorrow. I don't know exactly what time, probably late morning. So I'm assuming I'll be up at your place. And I don't know, four or five, something like that. But I'll let you know. So.

Mike (43:19.425)
Alright.

Mike (43:23.766)
Okay, yeah, I'll be around.

Bill (43:25.246)
Yeah, all right, so this was, we're all good on all that, right?

Mike (43:32.987)
I'm sure everybody's sick of fucking hearing about it.

Bill (43:35.158)
I know, but a New Year's Eve stuff, we got all that, New Year's Eve. Resolutions, I wrote that down, but I know you don't, you never make your New Year's resolutions, we've talked about that. Yeah, I think we're, I think I only wrote it down so we could make fun of them, but I, we don't even, we don't really need to do that. But.

Mike (43:42.756)
Oh god no.

Mike (43:47.642)
Yeah. No, not, Hey, again, you know, if it works for you, if you need that calendar to flip over, to make yourself a better person, go for it. I'm trying to do it every fucking day.

Bill (43:58.75)
Right. Yep. And that's our main point with that. I'm not, I wasn't, I was joking about the making fun of people. It's just that we were taught doing this thing that if something needs to be changed, do it now, don't wait. And if it happens to be, you know, like me getting rid of a word just because it's the beginning of the year has nothing to do with it. But yeah, it's just, it's time to, if it's time to make a change, our opinion is make the fucking change, whether it's May or January 1st. So.

Mike (44:12.274)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (44:17.07)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (44:26.546)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Bill (44:29.814)
But the, and this came up, I wrote this down, I don't know, a week or so ago, but it also came up on a podcast that I was listening to. The phrase square peg trying to fit into a round hole, okay? That for anyone out there, that's a very, very popular saying around recovery meetings and things like that. A lot of people say it just, it's just the concept of somebody feeling out of place, you know, trying to shove up again, a square peg into a round hole. So did you, Mike,

Mike (44:42.349)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (44:56.462)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (44:58.194)
ever feel like that? Ever? Whether it was when you first got sober, prior to that? Most people it's when they were still drinking, but did you ever feel that way?

Mike (44:59.204)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (45:04.186)
Hmm.

Mike (45:08.782)
Well, um, I actually thought about this early in recovery. Um, I was not a square peg in a round hole. I was a round peg in a square hole. I fit in, but I didn't fill it out. Um, yeah, you know, there were, there was the pieces missing. I was that round peg in a square hole. I was, the hole could be square. Um, but yes.

Bill (45:13.067)
Yeah.

Bill (45:18.914)
Ha ha

Bill (45:23.519)
Okay.

Mike (45:35.858)
Uh, you know, yes, I could fit it and I could make myself get in there, but I certainly didn't fill it out and I certainly didn't fit, but I would be in there.

Bill (45:47.182)
I don't know.

Mike (45:48.006)
So that was, that's my experience with it. Yeah. I, I didn't fill it out. I didn't complete ever. Yeah.

Bill (45:55.458)
Right? Did you know that at the time, or was that like, OK?

Mike (45:59.454)
Oh God, no, that was, that was, you know, after hearing square pegging around hole all those times, I was like, nah, it doesn't quite apply to me. You know, again, not looking for the differences, just taking the information that they were giving me and applying it to myself and I went, no, that's not right for me, what it was for me was. What I said.

Bill (46:20.714)
Right. Which, and now that you say that, I think I've heard you say that before, because it's one of those things that may, I completely understand that. But that's why I was just curious if you knew it at the time, but that makes more sense too. It's that, you know, that hindsight thing that we all get once we don't have a substance clouding our vision, right?

Mike (46:28.208)
Mm.

Mike (46:31.782)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (46:38.019)
Right.

Mike (46:42.284)
Exactly. All foggy and shit.

Bill (46:44.31)
Well, and it's just that when I hear people and I've heard people talk about that, oh, I didn't fit in and that's the way they explain it. And I never, I don't know that I ever really felt that way. The only time that I didn't fit in and I really felt it is when we moved from, well, both times we moved. It was tough moving from Cleveland to Pittsburgh. I went into fifth grade and kids are fucking assholes.

Mike (46:52.262)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (47:06.034)
Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm.

Bill (47:12.534)
And I was a fucking outsider and you know, I was from Cleveland. This was Pittsburgh all this different shit Yeah, and in my mom And who turned out to be our mom, but at that time my mom Bought me a brand new winter coat Cleveland Browns No fucking shit Yeah Bought me a fucking cleveland browns coat I mean all the all the best intentions, you know, but i'm like

Mike (47:12.818)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (47:17.99)
Hehehe

Mike (47:24.358)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (47:30.164)
Mm-hmm. Ah! Hehe

Mike (47:38.196)
Mm-hmm.

Sure.

Bill (47:41.066)
I can't fucking wear this, you know, I'm going to get killed. And she ended up, you know, and I did. I mean, while I was there, we were there in the late 70s. That's when Terry Bradshaw was there and all the great. I mean, again, the Steelers of the late 70s, they were. Oh, they were the shit. And I got to go to one game against a cowboy. It was fucking awesome. It was great. It was a lot of fun, but felt really out of place. And then when we moved to Wisconsin, I went into eighth grade.

Mike (47:43.942)
Hehehe right?

Mike (47:51.206)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Steel curtain, man.

Mike (48:01.394)
Cool. Mm-hmm.

Mike (48:09.008)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (48:09.398)
And same thing, that's the last year of middle school, going into high school. It took me two years to kind of get my feet under me with friends, you know, but it was just because kids were fucking assholes. It had nothing to do with me. I mean, it literally didn't. I mean, I didn't feel out of place. I was put out of place, you know? But usually the concept is I felt this way or I felt out of place, so I drank, which I never, I didn't start drinking until I got in with a group of friends that actually

Mike (48:17.379)
Uh-huh.

Mike (48:20.962)
Right. Oh, yeah.

Mike (48:28.931)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (48:39.602)
It wasn't really my choice, but they played soccer, ran track, this and that. There's a group of friends of mine and me, we really didn't drink until like end of junior year and the senior year. Um, you know, but so it was almost the opposite. I mean, I wasn't seeking out anything, but anyhow, it just, I've always found that to be kind of an odd statement because maybe just cause I didn't have to deal with it or I didn't, I can't relate to it, you know.

Mike (48:51.506)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (49:03.938)
Right. Yeah. Well, I mean, you talk about moving around. I mean, I, um, second grade, I went from Detroit to the upper peninsula of Michigan and then, um, back down to the Detroit area. So I went to three different schools in second grade. Um, oh yeah. I mean, well, mom was one of us. And so, you know, uh, geographics were a big deal for her.

Bill (49:22.946)
Really?

Mike (49:31.95)
And, uh, yeah. So I was, I was an old pro at it. We moved a lot and, um, Oh shit. Uh, I started, we moved from Michigan to California. Uh, I was, I started eighth grade. Um, yeah. And I had been, um, in Michigan, I had been there for like four years, as long as I'd been anywhere, um, at that point in my life in a school system and all that stuff. And so I did like.

fourth and fifth grade and then the population was growing. So they moved sixth grade over to the junior high. So I did two years of junior high and it was junior high. It was going to different classes every hour. It was like mini high school. And then I moved to California and I went to, they moved us out in the middle of fucking nowhere and.

Bill (50:22.05)
Hahaha.

Mike (50:23.766)
Yeah. And it was, it was a kindergarten through eighth grade school. So I basically went back to elementary school for eighth grade. That was fun. Um, and then we moved again, a little bit more populated area in Sacramento. And I started high school. I knew no one. I walked into a big high school, like 3000 students, and I didn't know anybody.

Bill (50:31.822)
Hahaha

Bill (50:47.298)
Jesus. Ha ha ha.

Mike (50:54.178)
I take that back. I knew one guy sort of, cause there was a kid that was a year younger than me, lived two doors down from me. And he had a friend that was starting high school. They had been there his whole fucking life, one of those guys. And so I'd like met him a couple of times, but walking into this high school, he didn't acknowledge me. I was not, yeah. I had met him a couple of times and that was it. So yeah, I walked into high school and didn't know anybody. But I, you know.

Seriously, within a couple of weeks I had, you know, I was already making inroads because I was an old pro at it. I'd been moving around my whole fucking life. So yeah, you know, uh, I found, I found my people, you know, yeah, you know, we had a little thing called smokers corner because you could smoke in school back then. Yeah. So, you know, you go hang out there. I'll find those motherfuckers.

Bill (51:42.647)
Hahaha

Bill (51:49.262)
Hahaha

Mike (51:49.762)
Hey, man. So where's the beer party this weekend?

Bill (51:54.246)
So, you know, it's funny because that was my next question. So people talk about seeking out people who drank or used like they did. Did you do that? And I know you're trying to find friends and stuff like that. And again, easily find in something like the smoking area. That makes sense. That's the one thing that, and smoking's bad for us and all those sort of things and everyone gets it and everyone understands it. But the one thing that you could always do is you can go hang out.

Mike (52:01.682)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (52:08.768)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (52:12.335)
Right?

Mike (52:17.38)
Mm.

Bill (52:23.154)
smoke a cigarette even these days, go where anyone's vaping, and you can make instant friends. It's a weird culture. It really fucking is. It doesn't matter who it is. You're with people who smoke or vape or whatever it is.

Mike (52:26.962)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Mike (52:32.963)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (52:38.03)
Right. Well, let's see. It's the junior version of walking into a bar. You know? Yeah. Same thing. You know, we'll work in them substances, man. Find the people that like the same shit you do. Um, right. And, um, no, I didn't really look for people to party like me because I partied like me motherfucker. You know, I, if you want to share your stuff with me, that's cool. I'm sure. So not share my stuff with you.

Bill (52:42.071)
Yeah, yeah.

Bill (53:06.242)
Right. But I, because I was thinking about that too, when I, when I wrote it down, it just that in briefly, you know, thinking about it, I never really, I don't think I ever had a conscious thought where I said I'm only going to hang out with people who drink. I'm only going to hang out with people who like to stay out and drink, you know, can hang with me type of thing. But I ended up just everyone that I was around was like that, you know, and

Mike (53:23.015)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (53:27.365)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Mike (53:35.494)
Right.

Bill (53:35.61)
When I went to events, it was, I would say, almost unheard of to end up at any event, child's birthday party, to a Christmas party, to anything where you couldn't get something to drink, you know? And it just, it was the, it was, it was a thing. And I think it's still a thing, you know, to the, these days, you know, where a lot of these get togethers, and that's why so many people have trouble, I think, or struggle a little bit when they get sober with that sort of thing. But

Mike (53:46.371)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (53:49.764)
Oh yeah.

Bill (54:04.414)
It just, I was curious if you ever like walked into a place and I guess you had great examples there of thinking, I need to find people who drink or use like me because those are the people I wanna hang with, you know? And I, I don't know, like I said, I just never, I never had those blinders on.

Mike (54:24.023)
I mean, it just, it shakes out that way. I mean, honestly, yeah, I said smoke is corner, but I also, that first, my freshman year, I had always sang in choirs my whole life, from like second grade on. And I took choir in high school and that was, you know, also the first place. And, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like,

All the music kids hung out in the music room at lunchtime and stuff. So yeah, that was, that was a big part of it too. You know, I found musicians and stuff and, and yeah, you know, and, and not just rock and roll, but you know, they were there too. But yeah, the whole music department, that's shit. That's what kept me in high school.

Bill (55:00.466)
Yeah, well, I remember you saying that when we were talking to, might have been when we were talking to, to Nico, I think, cause he said wrestling and I had played, you know, I ran, ran track and played soccer and, but the same deal is like, you know, when we moved to Wisconsin, I had never, I had never played soccer before, but kind of the same thing with you where our next door neighbors, it was a, um, two boys had lived next to us. One was my age, but when

Mike (55:07.346)
Mm-hmm. Right. Yep.

Mike (55:17.99)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (55:25.938)
Same thing, they had moved from Minnesota down to Wisconsin mid-year so that the school system wouldn't let him in. So he got held back just because they came in late. So he was my age, but a year behind me. So we ended up going to the same school. I was in eighth and he was in seventh. So I saw him, but he wasn't in any of my classes. But what we did was he played soccer and I got involved in this community league soccer. So again, I started meeting people that way and I just did it.

Mike (55:35.483)
Mm.

Mike (55:38.541)
Okay.

Mike (55:44.534)
Mm hmm. Right.

Bill (55:54.902)
God damn it, that fucking word. But that's how I started meeting people was through soccer. And then a lot of those people, so it was all these communities around went to the same high school. So that's where I met a lot of these guys and became close friends and a guy I room with in college. He didn't play soccer, but he ran track. And so it's just a whole group of people that I ended up meeting. But same deal, like you said with the music.

Mike (55:57.443)
Yeah!

Mike (56:03.454)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (56:08.848)
Yeah.

Bill (56:21.762)
You know, you just end up, you know, finding your crowd based on common interest. But I don't know. It just, I, I've heard so many leads and I know you have two that those two things, the square peg thing, and then, well, I moved someplace and I, I found my, I was started looking for my people and I'm like, I just never, I never did that. You know, in

Mike (56:26.562)
Absolutely.

Mike (56:39.794)
Hmm. Yeah, no, you just, you just find it. It just happens. Yeah. You know, we, we're not that good. We don't look for them. It just, it just happens. You start doing things that like, again, the common interest sports or music or whatever, you know, and if you're a fucking math nerd, you find other math nerds. Yeah.

Bill (56:46.934)
Right.

Bill (56:59.015)
Right? Yeah, it's, it is, you're right, it's organically if we want to, if we want to go with one of those words, right?

Mike (57:08.206)
That's right. Absolutely.

Bill (57:10.062)
All right, so let me see. Oh, so here's another one. And we were talking about pride earlier. All these things are this, if I didn't bring this up, all these things would just be falling into place and I could just act like this was magic. But you know, I'm kind of pointing it out like, oh, look what I wrote down. Something we were talking about before. Do you remember the first time after you got sober that you were actually proud of yourself?

Mike (57:26.023)
Great.

Mike (57:31.426)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (57:35.762)
Hmm.

Bill (57:37.794)
and what had you accomplished or and what you had accomplished up to that point. So figure this time because I get it before when you said you were you were dry not really sober before this time. So when we got sober this time, April of 2010, do you remember the first time that you actually felt proud of yourself and what you had accomplished to that point?

Mike (57:48.97)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mike (57:59.098)
Hmm. I mean, it was kind of the slowly thing, you know, just put the days together, man. You know, yeah, you know, clearly, I got past, you know, the 90 days and that was a big one for me because every time I had, here's my air quotes, tried this thing in the past. Yeah, that 90 day

Bill (58:22.882)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (58:28.974)
never really get past it very well. And, you know, I did once but it was fucking skin in my teeth, white knuckling it. Yeah, you know, again, just put the days together, man.

Mike (58:47.023)
Ooh, I, no, not really. There's no moment. There was no, you know, hell I'm still working on it, man.

Bill (58:55.874)
And same deal though with that question and I'm sure it came up but me listening to some podcasts because these thoughts kids are not, I'm not that original. There are times when I have one of these things pop off the top of my head for no fucking reason I'm like, wow, where did that come from? But I know this wasn't one of them. But same deal though.

Mike (59:03.27)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (59:08.858)
Right.

Mike (59:18.044)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (59:22.954)
when I first write them down because I don't want to have these preconceived or preset thoughts in my head. But the only thing that I can think of right now is I'm thinking back is starting to see when Dara came out. And Dawn was a big part of that part of that, I think, making me feel that way because of her

Mike (59:29.874)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (59:41.97)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (59:51.214)
her reactions to me and what she was doing with our son and all that stuff. And same thing, watching Kathy and watching mom and having just a family member. I don't know who it was or when they said it, but say, hey, you're looking better, you're sound a bit, whatever the thing is. And then you look, where somebody says something and you're like, huh, yeah. Then you look back and you're like, God damn. I think that I mentioned it in one other episode, doing the walk or whatever it was.

Mike (59:53.709)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:00:09.414)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:00:20.182)
When did I start doing these prayers? When did I start doing this? How did I get to this point? Like you said, it literally is, it's just putting together these days, but there's just moments, even now. It could have been a handful of years ago, either one of my kids said something or I'm able to do something for my kids or mom says something and you're like, God damn, if I wasn't, where would I be? Or if I didn't, what would have happened? And just having an-

Mike (01:00:25.882)
Mm.

Mike (01:00:38.864)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:00:44.938)
Oh, absolutely.

Bill (01:00:48.546)
I have no better way to put it. Kind of having an awe moment. You're like, god damn, that's, everything's fucking worth it, you know, with that one thing, you know?

Mike (01:00:53.531)
Mmm

Right. Well, um, you're talking about it that way. And, um, it was probably, it's probably getting close to two years ago. Now, um, Lydia, my granddaughter, um, wrote me a letter, uh, a couple of pages, man, just, um, you know, telling me, um, she was proud of me and she was glad that I was her grandfather and hell, I don't remember all the

Mike (01:01:25.812)
I was just, you know, again, so this is a couple, so I'm like, maybe 11 years sober or something like that. And just the cumulative thing of, of me always being there in her life. She has, you know, I've talked about it before. She has no concept of the fucking monster that I am. Um, you know, she doesn't, she, she turned to, um, a couple of weeks after I got sober. So she,

Bill (01:01:44.397)
Haha, right.

Mike (01:01:52.314)
does not remember. I mean, there's, there's pictures of me at her first birthday and I was fucking hammered. Um, and, you know, I look back on that and go, but she, she does not know all she knows is me sober. And, um, and the, the cumulation of that was, was this letter she wrote me a couple of years ago. It just, it was.

It was amazing. I still have it. It's, it's a, it's in plastic. It's in a drawer. I know exactly where it's at. Um, yeah, it's, that one was, was huge. It was like, fuck, I guess I'm a halfway decent human being thanks to this program. Um, there's this, there's this person that I care about deeply and she cares about me and, um, the, the fruits of these labors in this program showing me how to be a fucking good person.

Bill (01:02:30.264)
hahahaha

Mike (01:02:46.61)
um works and yeah that's pretty goddamn cool.

Bill (01:02:50.158)
Right. And I remember when it was Kimmy sent me a text, probably, I don't know, three, four years ago, five years ago, whenever it was and fucking random, you know, just sent me a text and, you know, I don't say this enough, but along the lines of I'm so glad you're in my life and this and that, blah, and I was just like, huh, you know, all you can do is I mean, you know, thank you and all and I appreciate it and all that sort of thing. But, you know, you just kind of, it takes.

Mike (01:02:55.582)
Mmm.

Uh huh. Right.

Right.

Mike (01:03:10.183)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Heh heh heh, right!

Mike (01:03:15.693)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:03:18.698)
it almost knocks your wind out of you, you know, because you're like, huh, okay. All this, all these things that piss me off on a daily basis and the, here's my, I can't make big enough air quotes, the struggles that I have, you know, and we all have them in there. They're real and they're important and justifiable and fucking blah, you know, but, um, when you look back at stuff like that or

Mike (01:03:21.166)
Oh yeah.

Mike (01:03:27.25)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:03:34.417)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Sure. Mm-hmm. Right.

Bill (01:03:46.53)
being available, like you said. You know, I mean, my son, you know, calling me at one in the morning, not because, you know, because he needed a ride and I told him he could call me. And, you know, being there for, you know, my sister, being there for our mom, anything like that, you know, just you realize that, you know, how, whatever we did, whatever we had to go through, all this fucking work, which isn't work, you know, because we said this before and I make a joke out of it, but it is.

Mike (01:03:49.199)
Yeah.

Mike (01:03:54.471)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (01:04:01.433)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:04:11.496)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:04:16.154)
All we have to do is we have to read a fucking book, follow 12 little suggestions, and be a decent fucking human being. That's it. Okay, I worked really hard, man.

Mike (01:04:29.455)
Nope. That's it.

Mike (01:04:34.342)
Yeah. But, but you know, the flip side is, it's not our fucking nature. It's not anything we wanna do. It is work, you know, it's, it's working them fucking muscles, man. Building them up, making them strong so that we can be there for other people. Yeah, it's, yeah. Okay, so Chris has been, my girlfriend has been sick.

Bill (01:04:43.467)
Right, I know.

Mike (01:05:01.89)
She actually got sick like two days before we left for Mexico. Um, she got first few days we were down there. She was sick. Um, you know, but I kept telling her, you know, Hey man, I'm not driving a truck. I'm not dodging morons. Uh, you know, I step outside and it's 85 degrees. It's this is all good. Um, you know, and she started getting better and she beat that bug. And then she got back and she's okay for a couple of days. And then she caught another one. Um, yeah.

Bill (01:05:27.085)
Damn it.

Mike (01:05:28.77)
Yeah, she's anyway, she's getting better again. But was it Wednesday? Yeah, Wednesday. She texted me, you know, are you going to be done soon? And I had actually just parked the truck. I was all happy because I had an early day. Couldn't happen today. But it was early day. Right. I was going to go get some food, go home, relax, take a shower. And so I called her right away. I said, hey, I just parked. What's up?

And she was in a bad way and ended up taking her to the hospital. Ended up sitting in the emergency room, uh, for like seven hours. Um, yeah, dude, I didn't get home until about one in the morning. It was fine. Um, but yeah, you know, um, and not, you know, not, uh, not being a dick. I mean, this is certainly, this is not what I wanted to do. Um,

Bill (01:06:06.847)
Oh my god, wow.

Mike (01:06:27.354)
But I did it, you know, took her there, sat with her. You know, turned out she's got a virus and, you know, they gave her some fluids and sent us back home. But I could be there for someone else, you know? Again, not what I wanted to do. I fucking hate hospitals. I hate, you know, I'm sitting there looking at the people in the emergency room going, you motherfuckers, I hate all of you.

Bill (01:06:53.422)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (01:06:55.058)
Uh, you know, and, and the old me would have turned it around and resented her and let her know that I was not happy about being there and, you know, no, none of that shit happened. I mean, it was all in me, but it didn't come out because I know how to handle myself today, how to behave, be a good boy. Um, you know, it was fine.

got home and got about three and a half hours sleep and went to work. Um, and yeah, you know, and that was two days ago and it's, you know, in the past. But again, I got to be there for somebody else, help someone get through something that was not pleasant for them. And, um, that's all that mattered. You know, didn't matter that I was uncomfortable and I was hungry and I was tired and who fucking cares, you know?

I was there, I got to hold her hand. Well, I didn't hold her hand because she was diseased, but, um, and she listens to this, right? Ra-ho yeah. Nope. Sitting there with the mask on.

Bill (01:07:59.051)
So you guys were make guys were making out make it out in the The other side of the room saying hey, baby, how you doing over there?

Mike (01:08:09.794)
Right, exactly. Um, but yeah, you know, again, I got to be there for somebody else. So it was, it was a horrible, miserable fucking thing for me. And it was good because I got to do something for someone else. Yeah.

Bill (01:08:25.198)
Well, and we talk about that all the time. You know, we joke about that, you know, literally joke about the fact that, oh, it's not all about us and all that sort of thing, but it isn't. And that's the difference. And we don't, the thing of it is that the reason we have, like we were talking about, like you with Lydia and the text from Kimmy or my son or anything like that, the reason we have these, there's no better way for me to put it. Everyone will understand if I say an awe moment, but I don't know how else to put it. We have those moments because

Mike (01:08:29.586)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:08:33.161)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:08:43.106)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:08:55.146)
we don't realize how much we affect people positively, because all we're doing is doing our thing. We're doing everything that we were taught, but we don't always realize, at least I don't, I can speak for myself. I don't realize that the positive shit that I put out and realizing that, like you said, whether it's the hospital or being there for somebody, or I don't know, I mean, Kimmy and Brian always asking me,

Mike (01:08:57.53)
Hmm. Right.

Mike (01:09:06.288)
Right.

Oh, yeah, definitely.

Mike (01:09:13.519)
Yeah.

Bill (01:09:23.394)
you know, they asked me first if I could babysit. And, you know, she comes to me with some things and whatever it is, I mean, it's just being there, being available and realizing that you're there, you know, and sometimes that's all that matters, is that you're there, you're on the other end of the phone and they know it.

Mike (01:09:24.184)
Mmm.

Mike (01:09:36.634)
Yeah.

Mike (01:09:41.842)
Uh huh. Yeah. I did. Right. Nine times out of 10. That's enough. But, but, you know, 14, 15 years ago, that wasn't the case at all. You know, I'm not answering that fucking phone. You know, I'm fucking half in the bag and I want to get all the way in. I'm not answering that fucking phone. Yeah.

Bill (01:10:01.463)
I'm playing the Pagan and I want to get all the way in. Ha ha ha. Ah, I like that.

Mike (01:10:08.29)
All right, you're going to slow my fucking roll, man. I yeah. Again, um, we kind of didn't care that we were negatively impacting people. We were hurting people, you know, um, we didn't give a shit. Um, so how could we notice it? And, and now that we're just, we're again, doing the next right thing, being a good boy, blah, blah. Um, yeah, we don't notice that either. That, that.

It actually does make a difference. We're actually like, you know, helping people along their way, man, which is, yeah, fuck, who knew?

Bill (01:10:43.542)
I know, I know. And then, I mean, that's all about all those things, or all those proud moments. Those are the things that, it's that the little things, and I've been telling myself this because I get these little irritations. See, like I said, searching for a job or whatever, I mean, it's a big deal. Obviously, people gotta work, you gotta pay bills or whatever. But then there'll be just these little things throughout the day, and I keep reminding myself, sometimes talking to myself, I'm like, it's the little fucking things. You gotta watch the little fucking things.

And I know that because we were taught that. It's not the deaths, it's not the tragedies, it's usually, not always, it's not a rule, but usually not the big things because those things are so fucking blatant that you realize you gotta take care of yourself. And I'm talking about sober people, watching out for that first drink and stuff. People don't necessarily, we, we people don't necessarily notice that we got these little things just picking at us every day. Those are the things that we gotta take a deep fucking breath and realize that you gotta.

Mike (01:11:20.395)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

Mike (01:11:28.162)
Right. Mm hmm.

Mike (01:11:41.906)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:11:42.69)
keep our shit straight, you know? Because all that shit just piles up and all of a sudden we just get this case of, you know, fine, fuck it, whatever. A case of the fuck it's, but. So it was funny because my eyes just drifted down to this thing from the 24 hour book that I wrote down. And it was when they were talking about slips, but I'm just gonna read this because it came right out of the book. It said in idle thought,

Mike (01:11:44.782)
Yep, absolutely.

Mike (01:11:51.374)
Yep, case of the fuck-its.

I'll take a case and a half.

Mike (01:12:03.258)
Aww.

Mike (01:12:09.074)
Mm.

Bill (01:12:12.758)
connecting or connected with drinking pops into our mind. This is the crucial moment. Will I harbor that thought even for one minute or will I banish it from my mind at once? If I let it stay, it may develop into a daydream. I may begin to see a cool glass of beer or a Manhattan cocktail in my mind's eye. If I allow the daydream to stay in my mind, it may lead to a decision, however unconscious, to take a drink, okay? So I thought that was kind of.

We were talking about those little things and whatever and then I looked at them like, wait a second, I don't like no idea how long I've had this on here, but that's kind of what, and I, there was a post on social media, which we've heard a million times. Let's see. Right. But there was a thing on social media where somebody put that, you know, a relapse happens, you know, long before you physically take a drink, which we know, you know, we've heard that. But that's kind of what a little bit about what this is talking about that these, we talked about the fact that

Mike (01:12:54.542)
month. Slip season was about a month ago.

Mike (01:13:04.683)
Uh, right.

Bill (01:13:11.426)
drinking or the thought of drinking and all that shit comes into our heads a lot of times and especially on a weekend like this if somebody's newly sober it could easily come into their mind but the point here is you know do you let it dwell because sooner or later it's going to sound like a good fucking idea you know especially if shit's going bad then you're looking for a big old case of fuck-its so yeah we have a case and a half

Mike (01:13:16.902)
Sure.

Mike (01:13:27.631)
Oh yeah.

Mike (01:13:33.274)
Mm-hmm. Case in half.

Bill (01:13:36.906)
So yeah, we can't do that. I think the 24-hour book is telling us not to do that, right?

Mike (01:13:37.542)
Hehehehehe

Mike (01:13:43.734)
Um, right. I, I know exactly the reading you're talking about because I've read it a few times, um, 14 or so, uh, but, um, thankfully I have this, who here's some more sober jog at jargon. Um, I have this tool in my toolbox that it is a default.

Bill (01:13:52.572)
Right?

Bill (01:14:07.223)
Ha ha ha!

Mike (01:14:11.514)
for me now. Um, we've talked about it a million times on here. Yes. Of course we think about drinking. Yes. Of course. Think about using drugs. That, you know, it happens all the time. Um, not constantly, not every day. I'm not obsessed with it anymore, but it happens. And, um, but the tool that I have now, and it pretty much when I can get those thoughts, I instantly play the tape through, keep it going. Okay. Asshole. Take that drink. Then what?

Then what? Then what? Well, I take that drink and then I'm going to get thirsty and then I'm going to need some more. And then I'm going to, you know, then I'm going to, um, I'm going to smoke a joint and then I'm going to get some heroin and then I'm going to smoke some crack and no, but I'm going to fucking throw it all away. You know, um, I'm very, very quick. That muscle is really strong. I am very quick. When that thought pops in, what's the next step? What happens next is

my next thought almost instantly now. And you know, fuck it, it's never good because it's never good. So, right, I mean, it's easy, yes, the thought, okay, yes, that Manhattan cocktail, that cool frosty beer, right. Yeah, it's gonna lead me to being a raging asshole, hurting everybody that I love.

Bill (01:15:29.186)
I'm sorry.

Mike (01:15:38.434)
Um, and suddenly that cool cocktail doesn't sound so fucking great anymore. Um, like real fast. So yeah, you know, again, but it was, it was a thing that I had to practice because again, the thoughts always happen. Um, and it's, it's just my default now. You know, I have that thought about the drink and then, or the drug or whatever the substance is.

Bill (01:16:05.602)
Hehehe

Mike (01:16:06.474)
and uh and then instantly have the next thought you know the consequences of that cool frosty beer the consequences are never good so that thought goes away it doesn't you know that sunshiny frothy loveliness of that cool drink lasts about half a second you know um yes i could continue to think about the lovely sunshine that it's going to come with it

And there is, I know that, because it happened to me over and over again, that instant ease and comfort from taking that drink. But then I know exactly what happens after it. I don't focus on the ease and comfort, the good stuff. I instantly focus on the bad stuff that will inevitably come from me trying to feel good for fucking 20 minutes.

Bill (01:16:59.058)
And just to be clear, so when like what you're talking about happens almost instantaneously, it's not as though the thought comes in, you have to sit down and go through this process. Even for the maybe the two minutes that you've just talked about it, you don't think about it for two minutes. It's just there and gone, right?

Mike (01:17:08.86)
Mm. Well.

Yeah. Oh God, no. Yeah. Right. Well, yeah. Because again, I have trained myself to that wonderful thought instantly turns to the horrible that always comes with it. And then that's gone because I don't want to fucking dwell on the horrible. The fuck fun's that? Because I'm still selfish and self centered. And I don't want to sit there and dwell on horrible things. So then I move on and then I pick up the phone and go do something for somebody.

Bill (01:17:31.286)
Yeah.

Bill (01:17:35.362)
Hehehe

Mike (01:17:44.101)
or turn on the TV.

Bill (01:17:45.762)
Well, and I just wanted to make that point because I knew the answer, because I was thinking the same thing that as you were talking about that, that in real time that we don't miss, usually we don't even miss a step, you know, when that happens, it's, you see it. So, and for instance, I'll see it on TV every once in a while, they'll talk about, or I'll hear it on a podcast that they'll be talking, telling their stories and stuff like that. And the typical thing that you'll hear is when, first time somebody took a drink and they describe again,

Mike (01:17:50.991)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:17:59.28)
Mm-mm.

Bill (01:18:15.586)
warm feeling in this and the relaxation and all that stuff. I remember fucking all of that, you know? And that's what, once you get that, that first time, that's what we're chasing the entire time. And you never, you never catch it again, you know? Cause it's that first feeling. But I don't, it doesn't, it's not even a thought. I usually never sit down and like, hmm, I just had a thought about drinking. Now I gotta play the tape through. So it does, it's just a real time. It just happens that we go on.

Mike (01:18:17.682)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:18:27.158)
Oh, absolutely.

Mike (01:18:38.275)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Hehehehehehe.

Bill (01:18:45.09)
However, and I know for a fact I'd mentioned this before, there are times when things are going, my perceived thought of shitty in my life or things are piling up or whatever the case is and things are rough, whatever the case is, I have actually asked myself, you know, if I'm feeling not even overwhelmed, let's go halfway and go whelmed, if I'm feeling whelmed, I mean, I will ask myself, I'm like, do you want a drink right now? And self, do you want a drink?

Mike (01:18:56.281)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:18:59.857)
Right?

Mike (01:19:07.426)
Right?

Mike (01:19:12.306)
Mm hmm. Sure.

Bill (01:19:15.626)
And I'll say that out loud and it sounds fucking stupid, but my answer better fucking be no, and it better be immediate, because if it's not, then I gotta make a phone call or do something, you know? I still need to, I just wanted to make that clear. I still need to check myself every once in a while. And it's been, I don't think it's been in the last week or so, but probably in the last handful of months, I probably had to ask myself that. You know, I don't know when or what happened, but I think that's...

Mike (01:19:17.938)
Uh-huh. Hehehehehehehehe. Uh-huh.

Mike (01:19:27.439)
Right.

Mike (01:19:39.982)
Oh yeah, me too. Mm-mm, right.

Bill (01:19:43.902)
I don't even think I don't fuck for a fucking fact is healthy to be like hey, hey you okay?

Mike (01:19:50.118)
Mm-hmm. Right. Well, yeah. And of course we're going to, you know, right. Yeah, whatever, whatever the situation is, it's, you know, our perception is, oh, this is fucking awful. Yeah. Oh, there are plenty of times where I will seriously go. So would a drink help this situation? Cause it used to be the solution to all this shit and I'll it for.

Bill (01:20:10.453)
Right.

Mike (01:20:14.826)
Very long time that was the solution to these horrible fucking feelings and problems and blah, blah. Um, yeah. So of course I asked myself that question, what a drink help this, would this make this better? And the answer is always no, because it wouldn't again, experience it. Nope. God damn it. Didn't fucking work then it's probably not going to work now.

Bill (01:20:37.202)
Right. Yeah. And that's, I mean, I'll throw my yet in when I say this because I, I have not, and for everyone out there, I know I've said it before, I have not relapsed yet. This is my first run at this thing. I've never tried to get sober before, but I haven't relapsed yet. And I'm very, very conscious of that, that yet part. I'm, you know, I want to talk about proud. I'm proud of it because this goes back to the odds and the statistics and all the things we said, fuck you people.

Mike (01:20:52.187)
Right?

Mike (01:20:57.19)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:21:05.54)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:21:07.126)
You know, you're 41, you've never tried this before, you can't stay sober, oh fuck I can't. You know, I'll be a dry drunk before I drink again. No, that's not true, I don't want that. I don't want that. But the whole point is that I don't know what it's like to relapse personally, but I'll tell you one thing, I've seen it. I've seen the despair, I've heard the stories, I've watched people.

Mike (01:21:12.154)
Hehehehe. Mmhmm.

Mike (01:21:16.402)
Yeah. No, who's got no no, I'll fucking drink before I'm a dry drunk.

Mike (01:21:30.851)
Right.

Mike (01:21:36.078)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Bill (01:21:36.082)
I know for a fucking fact what happens. I've watched people die. You know, not physically watched people die, but I know people have gone out and died and tried to use again, tried to drink again or continued. So I don't have my own tape to play through as far as a relapse. I got a tape to play through about how I used to be. And then I can, I got a home movie of all these motherfuckers out there that are dead or that went through miserable shit, you know?

Mike (01:21:45.938)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:21:54.706)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:22:01.458)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:22:01.786)
And I believe every single one of them, because I've seen it or I believe their stories. Joe used our sponsor, Joe used to always say that we talk about whatever. He's like, I believe you. I believe that it was a funny, the funniest things because, you know, we, I'd be all fired up about something about telling us something. He's like, no, I, I believe you. I believe it. I'm like, yeah, I know you do. Yeah. Cause cause you've been there. You've been there too. That's it. That was always his way of saying I've been there.

Mike (01:22:07.12)
Right.

Mike (01:22:13.861)
Hehe

Mike (01:22:21.53)
Right? Right. And exactly, exactly. And, and you know, you talk about when you were saying, you know, this is your first time and all that stuff. You know, technically, yes, I, I thought I was somewhere deep down in me. I knew I needed to get sober and I definitely had periods of dryness.

But yeah, but I mean, exactly, arid. But this is the first time that I actually truly worked the program. So, you know, yeah, this is my first time being sober as well. You know, again, I had periods of dry before, but yeah, I was never sober before. That's why I always got drunk again.

Bill (01:22:51.678)
non-non moist times.

Mike (01:23:21.478)
Um, because I didn't have that defense against the first drink that I have now because I put the work in, that's the important difference. Um, yes, I went to meetings and yes, I read things and blah, but I never truly did the work to try to make myself a better person. I just wanted to be the same fucking piece of shit that I was in and not. Have my problems and Hey, guess at what? That didn't work. I was still the same piece of shit and I still had all the same problems.

Bill (01:23:50.678)
Well, and you made that point last week when we were talking, whatever the question was, and I said, either pick this time or the first time that you got sober. And I remember you answering the question, but then when I listened back on it, you're like, well, I wasn't sober the last time I was dry. You and I had known each other a long fucking time. And I get that. I never really, not that I really never looked at it, but I don't know that we've, you and I have actually talked about that distinction. I understand exactly what you mean, because there's a...

Mike (01:24:05.879)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mike (01:24:19.986)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:24:20.374)
We talked about it endlessly on here in a good way. There's a huge fucking difference between being sober and just not having stinky breath, or not having alcohol breath, or I was gonna say drug breath. Not having drug blood, drug blood. Yeah, meth mouth. But there is a huge difference, so I agree with that.

Mike (01:24:29.454)
Right.

Mike (01:24:34.443)
Yeah, well, yeah. Right. Yeah, meth mouth.

Bill (01:24:45.994)
And when you had said that, I'm like, God, I'm glad that you brought that up. And I'm glad you brought it up this time because there is a, we've, we've known people, seen people act the fool, you know, because we, we know they're fucking dry, they're not doing anything, you know? And there's a huge difference. If, if I just wasn't, we talked about it endlessly. I, neither one of us understands how any of this shit works. We don't understand why the steps work, why the book works, why, you know,

Mike (01:24:54.683)
Mmm.

Mike (01:25:10.192)
Mm-mm.

Bill (01:25:13.706)
making our bed every day and reading some fucking things and every day works. No fucking clue. And anyone, if you think we're joking, we're not, it doesn't make any fucking sense. None of it does because it, there's nothing, there's nothing magical. Nobody once, once I was detoxed and once you were detoxed, what does they say? You know, within like two to three weeks, all the, all the mess, all the chemicals and shit are out. You are as you're as, as alcohol free as you're going to be.

Mike (01:25:22.258)
Mm-mm. No, not a bit.

Mike (01:25:32.246)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:25:38.53)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:25:42.918)
at that point. The rest is what we do now, you know, getting sober and trying to get healthy mentally and physically and all that sort of stuff. But huge difference, you know, we talked about that very early on and sobriety that, you know, sobers is it is sobriety is a lifestyle whereas, you know, you can just not drink and that's fine if it works for you, you're cool. But for us, we needed to be, you know, we needed to change fucking everything. Right.

Mike (01:25:47.011)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:25:50.802)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:25:59.442)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:26:05.434)
need to make fundamental changes. Oh yeah, as an alcoholic, the way I fucking am man, if I just took the alcohol away, well I didn't. The one time I lasted 11 months, I was fucking miserable and I went and I got a drink, I had to. Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine not changing the way I think, well, and we've talked about this endlessly too, and it changed the way I act.

so that I would think differently. But if I didn't make those changes, I'd have fucking blown my brains out, you know, years ago, because I'd have been so goddamn miserable, you know? Being that, again, like I said, this, ha ha, again, see, I say it too. So some of those were mine. Yeah, if I wouldn't have fundamentally changed the kind of person that I am,

Bill (01:26:52.086)
Hehehe

Mike (01:27:04.326)
Being without alcohol, I would have been so, I'd be miserable. I couldn't handle that. There's no way in hell I could not have a life without booze for decades. Why would, yeah, why would me just putting the booze away and not changing anything else work? It wouldn't, it couldn't. Absolutely could not. I had to change the way I think. And I had to change the way I think by acting differently. And slowly.

I started to think differently and I'm still working on that too.

Bill (01:27:38.166)
Yeah, and it's, I mean, it's, it is that literally that daily reprieve, you know, and it's, it's every, I couldn't imagine we've talked about it plenty enough, you know, not, not doing the things I need that time in the morning. I need my space. I need my readings. I need to get my shit straight. And, you know, I, I need to everything that we do, we need to do. And we, we both realize that, but, um, the, the key there is that every day and, and keeping that same pattern and that same routine every fucking day, no matter what.

Mike (01:27:44.05)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:27:52.878)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:28:07.158)
no matter what. Yeah. Ha ha ha. Yeah, still, it's still one of the greatest things. I love it.

Mike (01:28:08.142)
Every day, man, I wake up on the edge of the cliff. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely, man. Every fucking day. Well, there's that edge. God damn it. I got to start backing away. I was way fucking far away from it when I went to sleep last night. What the fuck happened?

Bill (01:28:19.818)
Right.

Bill (01:28:29.114)
Yeah, so that's what you say, I gotta do this shit again, right? Damn it! Every fucking day! Well, you know what? I think on that note, that's kind of a positive. We're at the edge of the cliff and we've, at this point, I mean at this point of the day, I think we're far enough away from the cliff, you know, but good. Yeah.

Mike (01:28:33.522)
Uh huh. Ho ho

Mike (01:28:41.938)
Mm-hmm. It is.

Mike (01:28:49.39)
Now, I'm definitely, I mean, it's over there. I can still see it, but it's way over there right now.

Bill (01:28:57.997)
But yeah, I mean, I know you had a long day and it's getting late on our end, but you know what? Everyone, you know, just, well, I'll let you say, you can close us out, then we'll say our goodbyes and our New Year's Eve wishes. How's that? Go ahead.

Mike (01:29:01.275)
Huh.

Mike (01:29:10.79)
Alright, that works. Alright everyone, well thank you for listening to another episode of Sober Not Mature. As always, be kind to each other, be good to each other, do something nice for somebody else this week and don't tell anybody about it. And as now it is that time, is it that time? I think it's that time. It's that time. It's fucking late. It's that time. It is time for you to fuck off.

Then keep fucking off. Keep fucking off till you get to a gate with a sign on it saying, you cannot fuck off past here. Climb over that gate. Dream the impossible dream. And keep fucking off forever.

Bill (01:29:53.844)
You put some boist in there again.

Mike (01:29:56.85)
I did. I took that last couple drops of gasoline in the tank and used them up.

Bill (01:30:01.194)
Yep, ran to that fucking finish line with that. So, but no, but seriously, everyone have a, if you're listening, doesn't matter when you're listening to this, if you're listening to it on Saturday or Sunday, or even next week after, you know, we're into the 24 period, I don't know, just be good to yourself, you know, take some of the, whatever this fucking nonsense it is that comes out of our mouths. Hopefully a couple of these morsels helped a little bit, but the main thing is, is that just keep doing the same shit every day. It's nothing out there is worth a drink today, right?

Mike (01:30:11.056)
Right.

Mike (01:30:22.95)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:30:31.77)
Nope, not a thing. And it's not gonna fix a goddamn problem. Trust me.

Bill (01:30:37.065)
We can assure you of that. If we haven't done the research, we've been part of the research team, we've seen it. It doesn't work. Nobody's made it work yet. Never.

Mike (01:30:43.421)
Hehe

Uh-huh. There is no cheese at the end of that maze.

Bill (01:30:50.868)
Right. Alright, brother. Well, I'll see your fucking bald and grumpy ass tomorrow. So, I love you and, you know, until then, right?

Mike (01:30:52.302)
Hehe

Mike (01:30:57.306)
Yes, you will. I love you too. Until then, happy New Year, everybody.

Bill (01:31:03.626)
Yeah, happy new year, you motherfuckers. Heh heh. Bye.

Mike (01:31:07.954)
Okay.