SoberNotMature - Episode 98 (Video Killed The Podcast Star)

Bill (00:02.29)
All right, everyone, welcome once again to another episode of Sober Not Mature. And for those of you who are listening to the actual podcast version of this, we're live streaming right now, so yeah, hey. If anyone happens to be watching us on YouTube, come on, Mike, give it up. Thank you, thank you. But yeah, so we decided to try out something new that we can fuck up and this seems to be our next fuck up adventure, right?

Mike (00:31.298)
Right, exactly. I don't know. Yeah.

Bill (00:35.795)
But I don't know, I mean, we've had this guy, I don't even remember when. So we've had Riverside for a year, shit, a year and a half now. And I think that the, when we upgraded was last, what, a year ago on Thanksgiving. So I think that's when we got the opportunity to do this whole live stream thing, which we could do through YouTube and Facebook and I don't know, a couple other ones, LinkedIn, which we're not going to do. I don't even know that I want to do Facebook. I figured YouTube would be the, I don't know, cool place to start.

Mike (00:42.646)
Yeah.

Mike (00:48.162)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:02.53)
Sure, that's where all the kids are going.

Bill (01:06.348)
Yeah, right, right. All the kids are up on the YouTube. So hey, I've got my sobered up mature shirt on.

Mike (01:13.706)
I've got a banana splits t-shirt on.

Bill (01:17.218)
Well, you know what? That works. I like that. Yeah, look at that. One banana, two banana. All right, so I mean, obviously, we got a lot to talk about. We'll see if anyone happens to actually join us. The live stream is working. So yeah, hey. All right. But hey, worst case scenario, if you are

Mike (01:23.146)
Right. Heheheheh.

Mike (01:38.197)
Hey f-

Bill (01:42.366)
listening to the podcast version of this, go over to our YouTube channel, because this will be, this live version will be saved on our YouTube channel. So we're not mature on there. The same thing as it is everywhere else. And I'm guessing that this could be some sort of a galactic mess up, fucked up things. So, you know, if nothing else, uh, you know, enjoy the, enjoy the fuck up this. Right. All right. So, um, we got a lot to talk about. Do you want to talk about the first step tonight or?

Mike (01:59.427)
Hehe

Mike (02:04.062)
Right. Sure. Whatever.

Bill (02:12.182)
I mean, obviously.

Mike (02:12.45)
I mean, are we doing that again? We did it last year. Hey.

Bill (02:15.658)
What the f- Haha! Oh wait! Oh shit, well ok so the steps only have to be done once. Ok.

Mike (02:23.443)
Now, that's not what I'm talking about, but I mean, yeah, I mean, we kind of covered the steps. Go back and fucking listen to a man. Um, I don't know. I mean, we can. Yeah, I didn't think we were going to, you know, new year, new me.

Bill (02:25.622)
Hahaha

Bill (02:34.574)
It's up to you.

Bill (02:40.034)
Haha, right. I just, I hate, you know what? I hate the fact that you said that, but I actually love the fact that you said that because we can make fun of it. But you know, why don't we do this? Let's get your fucking reading out of the way, then we'll decide if we wanna talk about the step, do the step, if not, you know, that's fine. We don't have to do it. We're done, we're cured. I'm cured, fuck it.

Mike (02:45.698)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (02:56.662)
All right, let's do my reading.

Bill (03:02.518)
Hahaha!

Mike (03:04.586)
as we'll take advantage of the technology. Yes, right, and you know what? You can order one of these at our store. All right. Jesus, I don't like this. All right. Kenya, telekids. All right, I like being just the audio. It's, yeah, okay, so I'm out of my comfort zone. Cool.

Bill (03:06.815)
Exactly, show and tell.

Bill (03:14.548)
Yes.

Bill (03:20.739)
Hahaha!

Bill (03:33.27)
Right? That's how we grow, I heard.

Mike (03:34.898)
Alright.

Mike (03:40.487)
No, no growth right at the moment. No, no. Hehehehehehe.

Bill (03:41.386)
No growth? Okay, you can show somebody that that's a cool part of a video if you do grow. Hey ladies, I got gray sweatpants on. Look at this.

Mike (03:49.386)
This may shock you, but I have black sweatpants on. Alright, this is actually today's January 5th. I liked it. The God Grant Me If you've been reading along. I know Bill has. Some of you may not read this book, but we read it every day and they've been talking about the Serenity Prayer.

Bill (03:54.391)
All right, see you reading.

Mike (04:17.418)
breaking it down and doing stuff. And, uh, this is the last line of the serenity prayer, January 5th and the wisdom to know the goddamn difference. Oh no, wait, no, just the difference. Um, let's see. Some of us once thought that using alcohol or drugs made us smarter and more creative. In reality, it lowered our inhibitions in our standards, which was much more likely to lead us to the destruction.

which is much more likely to lead us to the destruction of wisdom than creation. True wisdom reflects and responds to our higher powers rule of order. Wisdom is about order and creating about movement and flow, about ideas, principles coming together. Wisdom is something we like, wisdom is something we like and want and changes us from the inside out. It is a treasure.

When we were controlled by our addiction, we couldn't find and respond to the order found in principles, which provide the basis of wisdom. We found only chaos and destruction. Our recovery brings us back to the natural order of things, back to the flow and rhythms of nature and our higher power. Prayer for the day. Higher power helped me notice the wisdom that surrounds me today. Help me see and hear the order.

in things that make them beautiful and wise. Today's action, says action, cause this is a program of action. Today I will sit down and write out five to 10 pieces of wisdom that I've learned in recovery. How will I use these pieces of gold to help me and others have a better life?

Bill (06:03.694)
Pieces of gold. I, and you said that was today's, right? And I think that I posted a, I think I posted a piece of that this morning, but once again, man, as I'm listening to you read, it's like reading something or listening to something new. I seriously, I hate the fact that, that I have no ability to retain that shit. You know, it's there because when we're talking about stuff, clearly this shit pops up along the way as we're talking.

Mike (06:05.724)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (06:10.006)
That was today's.

Mike (06:20.142)
Hehe

Mike (06:32.284)
Right, right, right. Uh-huh.

Bill (06:33.278)
So it's there, it's going in there. You throw enough shit in my brain, some of it sticks. I just can't remember it right off the bat, that's all.

Mike (06:41.782)
Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, it was, you know, 12 hours ago, 13, 14 hours ago for some of us. Right.

Bill (06:45.347)
Haha!

Yeah, yeah, it was. I probably I do my readings that, yeah, it's probably, you know, within coming up on that 12 hours ago. So, but so the first thing I wrote down was

Bill (07:01.122)
So yes, it's like God why I still I can't read my fucking handwriting either this these are my notes see now Everyone can see the scribble is fucking I know it's fucking terrible. So smarter and more creative That's the that was a first thing because that's like what we think it makes us smarter more creative Destruction of wisdom which I liked and then obviously chaos and destruction and then the last thing that I wrote down was the I think from the prayer part that Seeing the wisdom that surrounds me or us today

Mike (07:08.362)
I can't read that either.

Mike (07:16.116)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (07:30.354)
So the first three things clearly, and that's kind of funny where it says, well, clearly I think that we were all delusional. If we're not admitting that we're delusional, then we're still fucking delusional. So, you know, how many times, and you probably heard it more in the, I'm guessing, and I'm just going back to your music days, I've heard a lot of people talk about that they think that they're more creative when they're drinking, using that sort of thing. And...

Mike (07:41.942)
We're still delusional. Ha ha

Mike (07:58.982)
Oh, absolutely.

Bill (07:59.286)
Musicians specifically. So did you hear that a lot then?

Mike (08:02.518)
No, I fucking believed it. Yeah. You know, right. I mean, yeah, I'm going to play way better after I smoke a joint and, you know, uh, do a line and, uh, you know, I have a few beers in me. I'm looser. I'm more, I'm more creative, man. Um, yeah, it was bullshit. You know, it was pure bullshit. Um, but didn't stop me, you know, again, you know, I'm delusional and I believed my lies and yeah, why wouldn't I believe that? Sure.

Bill (08:31.85)
Right. Well, and the only thing that, um, and I, it, it didn't really help my golf game, but I thought it did because, you know, like the, the game of golf is it, if you're up there and you're, especially if you're on the first hole and you're with a group, I played a lot of outings and stuff like that. So you're with people you don't know in a, in like a work situation, and you're worried about just flubbing the ball, you know, hitting a fucking worm burn or something like that. And I was thought that, you know, having a few beers, whatever it is, you know,

Mike (08:38.806)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (09:01.066)
I'm relaxed. I'm not gonna be as nervous. Didn't always help. It didn't necessarily help my golf game, but in my head it did. And I know I told this story before too, or mentioned this, but when I used to speak in front of a lot of people, you know, prior to that, I used to get so nervous I would get almost this, I mean, uncontrollable like gag reflex. I'd have to go in the bathroom because I thought I was gonna throw up. You know, so what I started doing over time was taking a couple shots of whiskey in the morning finger.

Mike (09:01.607)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Mike (09:08.428)
course.

Bill (09:31.458)
You know, it's in a conference room. It's in like a classroom setting, but in a conference room with a stage type of thing. So I'm not in front of anyone. So I'm thinking, eh, what does it matter? I just relax myself and I'll do better. But, you know, thankfully I never fucked myself up or anything like that. Never missed the mark, as they say, but yeah, it didn't help. I don't think it helped. So.

Mike (09:51.092)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (09:54.65)
Right. Oh yeah. You know, shooting pool, right? You know, the, the first game sucks. You get those couple of beers in you. That second game you do pretty damn good. And then by that point you've got, you know, six or seven beers in you and the rest of the games are shit. But yeah, that, that second game man, with those, with those three beers in you, you played better. So you proved it to yourself that, you know, the booze made you better until it didn't, but we didn't learn that lesson until much, much later.

Bill (10:23.359)
Well, and that's a fun part too. And I always go back to our friend Rob that said that, that was leading that one time at the Keating Center and said that, you know, he drank before work and he always knew what, you know, where the mark was. And he just said one day, you know, he missed the mark, you know, and I know what that is. I've had that happen a couple of times. So the next one again was destruction of wisdom, which.

Mike (10:32.982)
Hmm? Hmm.

Bill (10:46.498)
I mean, I think that's a clear one. But the other one, the last one I wrote down, obviously, on that first part was chaos and destruction. So I don't remember exactly how it was brought up in there. But I mean, clearly, whatever we thought was bringing us wisdom, we weren't. So that's that destruction part. And we caused, I think, I could be wrong here, we caused chaos and destruction. Is that kind of where those go? Right.

Mike (11:00.361)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (11:03.827)
Mm.

Mike (11:07.306)
Yeah, yeah, I know I did.

Bill (11:12.354)
So, but the last thing too though is that the wisdom that surrounds us or me or we today, you know, so, I mean, that's the huge thing. We joke, you know, that we know shit and blah, which we don't. But I mean, really, we don't know anything, the things we know we've stolen, we've taken up along the way and all that stuff. But we are surrounded by wisdom today, you know, all the people that we know that are sober and all that stuff, even fucking normies, right?

Mike (11:26.409)
Mm.

Mike (11:36.854)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Oh yeah. You know, well, we're, you know, we're conscious and, and open to learning new things and be able to process the wisdom correctly and go, Hey, that's, that's pretty wise. Right.

Bill (11:54.577)
Right, right. Actually, actually take a suggestion and not think that we got to do it all on our own, right?

Mike (12:00.797)
Exactly.

Bill (12:02.306)
So do you, just the serenity prayer in general, do you say that like every day as part of your prayers, routines, anything like that? Or does that come up all the time or no?

Mike (12:12.686)
I don't now. Early sobriety, yeah, I did just because it was so prevalent. No, it's not part of my routine. It's not part of my regular deal. You know, clearly go to a meeting, you do the serenity prayer, go to a retreat and do it 1400 times a day. Right. But it's because in early sobriety, you know,

Bill (12:33.105)
Hahaha!

Mike (12:42.09)
hearing it all the time. Um, you know, I mean, at the Keating center and groups, we started every group with the serenity prayer and ended with Lord's prayer. And, uh, you know, same as a meeting. So, you know, we were doing it several times a day and, um, yeah, definitely an early sobriety. It was, it was a tool. It was, it was helpful. Um, I did do it more, um, on my own, even occasionally. Um, no, I really don't much today,

But because I've done it so many times over and over and over these past, uh, whatever, how many decades, um, now not quite yet. Um, but, um, done it so many times that it's kind of ingrained, you know, it's, it is part of the wisdom that I have. Um, then, you know, and when I do it early meeting now and, and when I do it now, I,

I truly do it and I truly, you know, I threw that goddamn in there when I read it out of the book. I always swear when I do it anymore, you know, I'm quietly in my head. Yeah. It's funny. I'm treasurer at my home group, which is really the only meeting I go to anymore once a week. You know, I've been pretty honest about that. Occasionally I'll hit another meeting, but you know, my home group I hit every week and usually when they're doing the Serenity Prayer is when the lead starting.

Bill (13:46.506)
Really? Right.

Mike (14:06.75)
And I'm usually in the back putting away the baskets and tidying up and whatever, putting the tickets away because we have raffle tickets here in Cleveland at meetings, I have no idea why, but we do. I always wondered if they had an open bar at GA meetings, but anyway.

Bill (14:27.37)
You know what, that's kind of a good point there, isn't it?

Mike (14:32.575)
But so I'm usually in the back by myself and I do it my own way, you know, of course, I, you know, being the atheist that I am, I never started with that word. I just, you know, say, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. Courage, I always annunciate that one and hit that really hard courage to.

except change things I can and the wisdom to know what the fuck I'm anyway. Yes. I always do that in the back. Yeah, I do. Yeah. You know, so I, I brambled. I don't know if that answered your question or not, but no, I don't do it every day. But when I do it, I fucking do it.

Bill (15:04.416)
Right.

Bill (15:14.402)
Well, and it not only answered my question, but I like that every once in a while, I in, now that we're on video, you'd probably see, you saw me take a drink of coffee. First of all, I put my coffee, right? I'm just saying, okay, if anyone else is watching either one of us, I used to put my, I have a desk, you know, a portable desk here, I used to put my coffee right on the corner and I reached for it the one time and that's when I dumped it all over me while we were recording. So I keep it away from me at arm's length.

Mike (15:24.255)
I was... you know what? I'm not watching you!

Mike (15:30.006)
HAHAHAHAHA

Mike (15:39.815)
Mmm.

Mike (15:43.998)
Little wisdom. Uh-huh.

Bill (15:45.366)
Yeah, the wisdom to not spill coffee on myself again. But so what's funny is that there's a lot of times when we're on here that I ask a question or something like that, I'll mute, you know, and go get a drink of coffee. And then you're like, nope. And then there's silence. I'm like, oh, fuck, you know, reach it for the mute button. And then other times, you know, you'll go on about something and actually explain, you know, in more depth, which I don't know. I appreciate both of them because one makes me laugh. The other one I think might help other people. So.

Mike (16:04.2)
Uh-huh.

Hmm. Right. Hmm. Yeah. Either way, they're both honest.

Bill (16:14.718)
So it's all good. But, right. So the Serenity Prayer, and I don't know, I don't know when I started. It must have been really early, because this set of prayers that I do, when I do my prayers in the morning and at night, there's only one part that I would consider actual prayer. The other part is it's almost a list of people that, I say keep them healthy and safe or watch over them, that sort of thing, you know? But it's more of a,

I don't know, it's more of a list type of thing. So when I get down to what my true, there it is, everyone can see air quotes if you're watching air quote, my true prayers, I start off with the serenity prayer. And what's funny is that's the only time that I don't mind actually verbalizing the word God, which is weird. And in a meeting after the serenity prayer, I don't say amen, but when I do it in my prayers, I do. It's weird. I've got these, just these,

Mike (16:46.603)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (17:05.055)
Hmm.

Bill (17:14.218)
It's habits, you know, these weird habits that I've gotten into. We've been really, really open about this. I mean, Mike, I've heard that for years or not heard that for years, if you want to put it that way, you know, that you have not said the word, you know, God in the beginning of serenity prayer, you know, or amen at the end, I don't believe, you know, but in the same thing with Lord's prayer, when it's just, you know, you say you're, you're one portion, um, your will not mine or to do thy will or whatever that piece is. And again,

Mike (17:15.5)
Right sure

Mike (17:27.974)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (17:39.102)
Yeah, they will be done. Great.

Bill (17:43.534)
I tried to pick out a word of that out of order and I can't fucking think of it, so... fucking stupid. But...

Mike (17:49.554)
I'm singing. Right. Well, I one I only part I do. Yeah, I time, I'm singing. All you need

Bill (17:55.523)
Right? Which is perfect. And the first time you told me that, I thought that was wonderful and I still do. But so we've been very, very open about neither one of us are God people and that sort of thing. But I pick and choose my God moments. When I bring God into my life and into my mouth and into my heart, wow, that sounded terrible. As soon as I said that, I'm like, yeah, come here, God.

Mike (18:09.762)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (18:15.421)
In your mouth? Nice! Hehehehehehe Hehe

Mike (18:22.315)
Hehehehehehe, get in my mouth!

Bill (18:23.211)
Bring that over here. So we're going to talk about memes here in a minute, but remind me of God in the hole in his hand, okay, or Jesus in the hole in his hand. But are we anything else on the reading at all? Anything else? Any other? Okay.

Mike (18:30.003)
Hahaha

Mmm.

Mike (18:39.742)
No, no, um, other than, you know, the action and I get to cheat on this one, you know, it said write down, you know, five to 10. Well, I've got three cause they're, uh, they're written down on this little piece of paper that I've used that I use, uh, for my bookmark separate from my bookmark for the day. Um, that's the one I've had for God over 10 years, um, that I've used.

Bill (18:54.699)
Nice.

Mike (19:09.114)
And my phone's going off. Cool. Yeah, that I've used for my bookmark, like when I was going to do group, I would mark the page, I was going to read blah, blah. Now I'm doing it for this anyway. So here it is right here. And my three bits of wisdom that I've written down, and this is one of my favorite ones. I must not expect what I'm not prepared for.

Bill (19:13.538)
Hahaha!

Mike (19:33.602)
Love that one. Um, which means, right. Cause I expected everything before and I sure as hell wasn't prepared for it, which means I need to do the work first before I get what I want. Um, let's see, what's the, the other one? Um, oh yeah, we can't sing because we're happy. We're happy because we sing again, do the action and then the results are from the action.

Bill (19:41.333)
All right.

Mike (20:01.766)
And the other one is, um, hearts and minds attuned to the welfare of others, which I always have to work on, but yes. So those are my little bits of wisdom that I've written down and I've had in this book for a long time.

Bill (20:18.986)
I wrote down nothing. So thank you. You know, the first one that you read off, we've talked about that before, if I'm not mistaken, because you brought that up at one point, and I like that. You know, it's, yeah, just basically doing the work and things come to you and not expecting it and blah, blah. I mean, we had this, we had a, actually, from what I remember, a decent conversation about it. Don't know what episode, but if you're new to us, go back and listen to all the fucking episodes and find it. I don't know. And then tell me.

Mike (20:20.983)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (20:26.324)
Mm-hmm

Mike (20:31.381)
Right.

Mike (20:37.366)
Right.

Mike (20:46.118)
Right. Yeah. Exactly.

Bill (20:49.215)
Tell me where it was. But so anything else on that? Because I mean, I think the reading, I like the reading, it was good.

Mike (20:58.814)
Yeah. No, that's it. That's all I got.

Bill (21:02.494)
All right, cool. All right, so memes real quick. I don't know if you saw my post, but we got, when I was there, yeah, I'll tell the God thing in a minute, the Jesus thing with the hole in the hand. But the, I think it was when I was out in Cleveland last weekend, because I was obviously out there for New Year's Eve, we played a poker thing, which is a lot of fun. And I had posted something and I can't remember what it was. And if anyone follows us on Instagram, I post some weird shit. And...

Mike (21:22.528)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (21:32.138)
The weird thing is that 90% of the memes that I post, I've taken from other pages on Instagram, which means they're already out there on the platform. I'm not pulling these out of some weird thing or making them up or anything like that. So they're already out there. But we were flagged on one over the weekend while I was there and that was almost immediate after I posted it. And then yesterday, yesterday morning, I think, whatever it was, I got tagged on another one. And what it does, it comes up and it says,

Mike (21:46.46)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (22:01.91)
you know, please consider, you know, like they're, like they're asking you, please consider deleting this post. If you don't, it could affect the reach, who your, your account, all these different things. And I'm like, fuck me, man. Cause I know for a fact, it was one that I just took from another page, like the day before. So once again, it is out there, you know? So the only thing that I can figure, and I put a post on it just to let people know, cause I, if we've been busy or I've been busy and I haven't posted a lot over a certain number of months, this has happened.

Mike (22:05.792)
Hehehehehehehe

Mike (22:18.55)
Mm hmm. Right.

Bill (22:31.862)
we'll get a message from somebody and they'll say, hey, you're falling off here. Where's your nasty content? I'm missing it. I'm like, well, send me some. I repost it. So just let everyone know. The only thing that I can figure is somebody or multiple people had to have complained and were probably being watched. Because if it's on the platform, because I'm like,

Mike (22:36.993)
Right?

Right, where's the dick jokes?

Bill (22:56.618)
If it's AI stuff, which I know that it is, it's computer generated, whatever that they do, because they said it before on things that I've gotten flagged on. I don't know what the criteria is to set up fucking anything with that. But either way, like I said in the post, we can't afford to get fucked with on Instagram. I hate to say that we need it, but we do. I hate to rely on a platform like that, but it is. It's a vehicle for us, you know, and...

Mike (23:02.466)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (23:18.818)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (23:25.302)
We need it, so we have to behave a little bit. But I was kinda fucking with people. I'm like, you know what? Those motherfuckers can't censor us on here, so we can tell all the dick jokes, all the shit. It was a centaur, or a centaur, with a penis. Where do you put the penis on it? Down underneath, back on the legs, on the hindquarters, so you put it in the front legs.

Mike (23:33.912)
Hehe

Mike (23:42.322)
Right. On the rear legs or yeah, jutting out from the, from the front legs. Right. Sure. That's good question. Something to think about.

Bill (23:48.162)
Right, and it was somebody, yeah, it was a great question. And somebody drew, you know, drew the penis on there and I just, it was a double picture and I put one or two of like everyone's shoes and I hadn't looked at it, but my contact just popped out. Oh well, yeah, either way. Oh, there it goes, yeah, it's on the ground. Okay, I'll find it. Oh, here it is.

Mike (24:02.818)
Nice.

Hehehehe

Mike (24:11.702)
Bill's going to reach down and grab his contact lens. This is perfect for video. See, this is, this is why we did video so we can watch things fly out of Bill's eye.

Bill (24:15.147)
Ha ha!

Bill (24:19.776)
I know. Yeah.

Bill (24:24.962)
Now look, the contact. That's okay. I have my contact case here. I'll go one-eyed. Now I got two one-eyed bandits. Hello. And you know the good thing is it's my left eye.

Mike (24:31.562)
Hmm. Wow. Hey, so we've got centaurs and cyclopses. This is all, this is all the mythological shit going on. And I can't pad anymore.

Bill (24:40.394)
Right.

Bill (24:43.574)
Right. And that's the that's a good part about the No, you're fine. I'm good. I'm still talking. I'm fine. But I mean, all it is, is just my left eye is the is the better eye of my two anyhow, so I'm fine. But so anyhow, the whole point of that is that, you know, I don't know how we got flagged, but I don't I don't want to fuck with I don't want to fuck with that and lose it. So

Mike (24:51.498)
Hehe

Mike (25:00.347)
Alright.

Bill (25:10.838)
I'm just going to tame myself. And I figured out kind of that it's, um, it's the, literally the picture memes that get picked up more than the words, you know, so I can still post stuff that just had, you know, kind of like weird words and shit on it. And then, um, I'm fine. But, um, Oh, so the, I saw this meme that I didn't, I didn't take it. I didn't, I didn't grab yet, but it was, um, it was like something about, you know, this, this almost like it was a text message or a, uh, like a blog post with Jesus in it.

Mike (25:11.52)
Right.

Mike (25:20.125)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (25:26.645)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (25:40.85)
And then this line pops in and says, hey, ask Jesus if he can fit his cock through the hole in his hand. And then you see the next post says, I think we have a troll, I look at the name and it's Satan. So Satan hacked in and started asking all these Jesus or all these nasty things about Jesus. I'm like, that'd be a fucking fun one to post, but now I can't, that was today. So I'm like, I can't grab that one. But anyhow, so yeah, whatever. I think.

Mike (25:50.636)
Alright.

Mike (26:06.178)
Right? Mm-hmm. Well, it's one of my favorite jokes. Right? Why can't Jesus eat M&Ms? They keep falling through the holes in his hand. Right?

Bill (26:20.039)
I do the punchline. She said fucking M&Ms. I'm like, got it. I know where that one's going. So OK. But that was it on the meme stuff. But either way, we've got to behave ourselves a little bit on Instagram. I do. You have not done anything incorrect or wrong. I have. So there it is. But the other thing.

Mike (26:25.465)
Hehe

Mike (26:33.762)
Mmm.

Mike (26:39.814)
Right. Well, I don't do anything on Instagram, so that's why. Trust me, if I was on Instagram, I mean, I've been, I've been shut down on Facebook plenty of times.

Bill (26:43.495)
I know, I know, I know.

Bill (26:50.102)
Right? Inadvertently too, yeah. The one time you got shut down commenting on my post, that was the Fast Times or Ridgemont High thing, and it ended up being the naked chick in the background.

Mike (26:51.45)
Oh, yeah.

Mike (26:58.192)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (27:03.026)
Right. Yeah. I posted a clip of Spicoli in his room and behind him was a Playboy centerfold on the wall and they shut my, they sent me to Facebook jail because I showed a booby.

Bill (27:13.198)
Right, right. So anyhow, for a minute, for like not even a minute, for about three seconds, I felt bad about that because you were responding to my post and I'm like, fuck it, that's funny. That's really funny. So, all right. So speaking of funny, I've been listening to other podcasts again and again, this one particular podcast, which if I make fun of a podcast, I'm not going to name them because it's not fair. They're not here to defend themselves. But

Mike (27:23.786)
Hmm. Right. Mm hmm. It was, it was.

Mike (27:41.925)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (27:42.134)
So the opening of the podcast, and it's just an audio podcast, same as ours, but it opens this and that, and then it's always, and this is how it opens. So pretend like you and I are opening, I'd be like, hey, welcome to Sober Not Mature. I'm Bill. I'm Mike. Yes. So that's how that part would start. And then I'm like, okay, Mike, welcome to another episode. So Mike, how are you doing today?

Mike (27:58.999)
Mhm. No, Mike!

Mike (28:04.991)
Yeah.

Mike (28:10.282)
Well, gee, Bill, I'm doing great. How are you doing, Bill?

Bill (28:14.546)
And that's how fucking starts off and I'm just like, oh my god. Oh my god So it just I don't know little shit like that. It's just this fake Niceness, you know, and these are two individuals who I know for a fact they know each other really well I've listened to this podcast here and there so I mean they know each other well, so that's fine But I don't know it just say I shouldn't make fun of other things and we are who we are and you and I are who we are but I Don't know. I'd rather I'd rather

Mike (28:19.742)
Mmm. Oh.

Mike (28:26.275)
Mm hmm. Right.

Mike (28:33.41)
Sure.

Mike (28:41.372)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (28:43.686)
whatever this is, and we've said it before, if, if we say, if we stay small, and we stay, you know, just this, this tight little group of people and followers and listeners and all that sort of stuff, just being our own little quirky selves and being different than other people, I would rather be, you know, this, this smallish thing and just be ourselves and be on here and do the thing, do the things the way that we do things, than to try to do, I don't know.

Mike (28:46.695)
Hehe

Mike (28:55.131)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (29:00.702)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Mike (29:10.197)
Right.

Bill (29:12.435)
any of this other state shit, I just don't.

Mike (29:13.074)
I don't know, right. Try to be, you know, the fucking local news or some bullshit. Right. Yeah, exactly. Hi, we're the weather channel. Let's have some fake banter between us.

Bill (29:21.885)
Yeah, you know what, that's...

Bill (29:25.642)
That is, I'm glad you brought that up, because that is, that's what it seems like, is that it's this sitcom type of stuff. Well, you see it on real news too, but sitcoms will make fun of it, the banter between the news anchors, and then throw it over to the weather person, hey Rob, how's that weather today? This stupid, the voice in that.

Mike (29:30.817)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (29:35.478)
Sure. Yeah.

Mike (29:39.274)
Right.

Mike (29:43.584)
Well, gee, Ollie, let me tell you all about it. It's gonna be dry.

Bill (29:46.68)
Hehehe

Mike (29:51.082)
Hehe

Bill (29:53.618)
And then it's gonna be moist. Just fucking moist.

Mike (29:56.286)
Right. And then it'll be light, and then it'll be dark.

Bill (30:03.979)
Yeah, I just, I don't know. Everyone's got their own thing. Hey, you do you, that's perfectly fine. But man, it just, I don't know. I would much rather just sit here and we grow anyhow a little bit here and there, but I'd rather never grow any bigger than we are now and just be real than not. I mean, I want to grow. I know you do too, but I don't know.

Mike (30:22.524)
Yeah.

Mike (30:26.242)
sure. But yeah, yeah. We don't want anybody that's entertained by that sort of bullshit fucking banter between two morons. We don't want you. Go somewhere else.

Bill (30:35.858)
Right.

Bill (30:40.47)
Right, and I would, well, I don't know. Maybe some of those people might listen to us too, but who knows, who knows? But hey, if you listen to podcasts like that, no offense if you enjoy part of that, that's cool. You know, and then stop over here for real shit. So, okay, enough of that. All right, so you know what? Speaking of followers and stuff like that in our nice little tight-knit group, how about a nice comment from one of our followers?

Mike (30:56.491)
Right.

Mike (31:03.508)
Mm-mm.

Mike (31:08.054)
Alright. Gee, Bill, why don't you read that comment?

Bill (31:09.762)
There was a guy who was... Okay, Mike, let me, I've got it right here. So, on obviously on Instagram, this guy was making a list of different sober pages on Instagram that he follows. I don't know if the guy's a listener or not, but I think he's been, I know the page, I don't know how long he's been a follower, but you know, I see him around. So he...

Mike (31:19.51)
Hehehehe

Mike (31:35.56)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Bill (31:37.25)
This whole list of probably six, seven, or eight different pages. So what he did, he'd list out the name of the page and then what he basically his impression of the page and why he follows them. So for us, it was obviously at Sober Not Mature. If they're not careful, these guys might give inappropriate a good name. Yeah, consistently hilarious for not mature audiences only. Explanation points.

Mike (31:47.441)
Alright.

Mike (31:57.439)
Nice!

Mike (32:04.098)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (32:06.642)
And I was just like, and I thanked him. I'm like, I'm like, that's fucking perfect. But I just love the line. Yeah, if you're not careful, I might give an appropriate, a good name. So I appreciated that. But, um, yeah, yeah. You know, it's, and it's again, every time we, I'm not saying we, we try to solicit comments like that, but we, when we try to, you know, say, Hey, give us, give us stars to do that. You know, nobody does. And it's not nobody does, but rare. Um, these things mean more to.

Mike (32:16.45)
That is cool. Thank you.

Mike (32:30.55)
Right?

Mm-hmm.

Bill (32:34.93)
I think more to what I know they do. They mean more to us than five stars are great. Do it if you want. That's awesome. But these just random comments like that, that people mention us in is just, it's fun. I really appreciate it. So we both do.

Mike (32:47.926)
Yeah, it's nice when people get it.

Bill (32:51.978)
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So speaking of getting it, what do you think? Should we take a, should we get into that break? I can't fucking read the time even.

Mike (32:58.178)
Mmm.

Mike (33:03.769)
Alright then we'll be back. I know yeah right. Yeah, it's good time. Alright, so we will be back and get some more of it right after these words from our sponsor.

Bill (33:26.49)
All right, everyone, welcome back. And for those of you, or if anyone's actually watching us, that probably looks stupid, but that's what we do. I know, I know, I was sitting there, but I mean, I'm missing one contact. So I usually, I write down the time here. Again, I've given away all my secrets, so I know where to find the split. Because, you know, that's where we put our website, our website commercial in there. But so I'm sitting there, I'm like, one.

Mike (33:34.53)
Mm-hmm. That's why I waved.

Mike (33:44.086)
Hehehehehehehehe

Mike (33:48.29)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (33:53.25)
They just heard it, man.

Bill (33:55.198)
I know, just one fucking eyes that they're trying to read the time so I knew where to get the plit. But anyhow, anyhow. So the other thing that I've been hearing on, well, you know all about, I know you've heard of Dry January before. Certainly not something that we do. Certainly not something that we would have done that would have worked for us, all those sort of things. But the, right. So it's...

Mike (34:11.762)
Yep. Heheheheheheh.

Mike (34:19.123)
Oh god no.

Bill (34:22.934)
I mean, there's things all throughout the year. There's dry July, sober October. There's September is alcohol awareness month, I think. Dry January, and then there's all these different things. There's always things going on, which perfect. That's part of the, it's not something that we get into and that we do, you know, but I think it does. And based on a little bit that I read in a few of the podcasts I listened to, statistics, as much as I fucking hate them, you know, they were talking about some of them. First of all, where it started, I guess it started in the UK.

Matt from Sober Friends was talking about it and going through all these different things about how it grew and all that stuff, which is interesting, you know, where it came from. So the fact that the awareness is out there is good. But what I'm it's almost like all these other different things where it seems like getting back to news people, you know, everyone grabs onto the big story and then they, you know, they kind of exploit it. And I'm not saying that everyone is exploiting it, but everyone is fucking talking about it.

dry January, everyone's having specific podcast episodes and doing all this stuff. And it's like, it's almost like it's not almost, it is, it's a marketing ploy, you know? So I'm like, okay. So I threw up a couple of our t-shirts and hey, do a dry January, fucking buy, you know, life sucks better sober type of t-shirt. I'm like, whatever. I joined in a little bit on that. But the thing that is that I was kind of interested in and anyone who listens to this, send us a message and.

Mike (35:37.336)
Right.

Bill (35:48.85)
I'd be curious of, I know one person in particular, the podcast that I listened to where the guy did, had some of the mental health things and kind of took a break and did all that stuff. He got sober after a number of attempts, but a dry January was what brought him into his full sobriety, and he's almost nine years sober now. So I'd be kind of curious to see people that listen to us, did you do that one of those months? Was it a whim? I'm just curious more than anything, but-

The one thing that I wasn't hearing anyone fucking talk about that I finally just glanced an article and I read it is that it wouldn't work for people like us because they started talking about, you know, the if you drink heavily, if you do all these different things, go see a doctor, go do all these different things. We talked about it because literally it could be deadly, right?

Mike (36:40.566)
Right, absolutely. Yeah. Oh, and it wouldn't work for us because we didn't care. Yeah, it wasn't like we needed an excuse to drink. It was, ooh, it's Tuesday and it's sunny. It's Wednesday and it's rainy. Doesn't fucking matter. It's January and it's dry. No, it's not.

Bill (36:46.166)
Right. Ha ha ha!

Bill (37:00.81)
Right. Yeah. It was just, like I said, it was, it was interesting to me that it just seems like everyone, I don't know, but I suppose it's like anything else. You know, you got to grab onto something that whether it's to grab, you know, people's eyes or people's ears or, you know, from a merchandising standpoint, I get it. Um, but I, it just seemed to be that nobody's talking about the fact of who shouldn't do this because, you know, once again, the friend, the friend that you knew that tried to detox, you know, from alcohol on her own and she died, you know, so

Mike (37:17.858)
Mm.

Mike (37:27.122)
All right. Mm hmm. Yup.

Bill (37:32.047)
I'll use the word God. Thank God that I didn't dry some, you know, fucking dry January because I didn't know. I didn't know you could die. I didn't know you could die from alcohol withdrawals. I knew none of that until I got to the Keating Center and that was a few months in. And I'm like, really? I'm like, almost like a good thing you didn't try to quit. But no, I. But seriously, man, I never knew that. But.

Mike (37:40.933)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (37:48.642)
Mm-hmm. Right. Exactly.

Bill (37:56.59)
Um, yeah, so hey, whatever, whatever brings you in is cool. Um, we always talk about the solution being the same. You know, Mike mentions that all the time. So whatever works for you, whatever your catalyst is, if it's dry January, if it's court, um, back problems, right, Mike, trying to get all these fucking people on your back, uh, whatever, whatever brings you in the end result is that the solution's the same, but seriously, any of our, our listeners or followers or anything like that, that if you came in under that sort of thing.

Mike (38:03.638)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (38:12.386)
All right. Yep.

Bill (38:26.078)
and you stayed sober, I would just be curious to figure out what people did. You know, did you just stay dry and quit or did you go through a program or, or what'd you do? So reach out, that'd be interesting. I just more knowledge on my end of nothing else or RN. So anything else on dry January? You want to talk about it more? Yeah, I know. I know I had, I had no desire to talk about it either, but I had to, I had to bring it up, but, um,

Mike (38:30.42)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (38:45.63)
No, I don't. Hahahaha

Mike (38:53.642)
Right. I don't I don't follow little silly trends. I don't listen to Taylor Swift. I don't care. I don't care.

Bill (38:55.758)
So we're talking about.

Bill (38:59.634)
Hahaha

You're not a Swifty?

Bill (39:06.794)
Right? Now she's a, uh, I don't even know who's Jonathan Swift.

Mike (39:08.426)
Jonathan Swift.

Mike (39:14.352)
He's an author.

Bill (39:16.086)
Oh, okay. Okay. Gotcha. But, um, when I was in, uh, God, it was several months ago. Now, when I was up in Appleton babysitting for, uh, Ali or about to, Kimmy was getting ready and they, she just had, you know, whatever, I don't know, Pandora, Spotify, whatever playing in the background on the TV. And Ali was standing in front of the TV and, uh, you know, she's like, she's like, you realize to me, she's like, you realize that's Taylor Swift. And I'm like, no.

Mike (39:34.952)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (39:44.062)
I said it wasn't like making my ears bleed or anything like that, but however long it was, however long was playing for 15, 20 minutes, um, I clearly that's the, that's the most Taylor Swift that I've ever or probably will ever listen to unless I'm in a concentrated environment like that. So she's up. She's right. She's a fucking billionaire and you know, Hey, more power to her. But I just, yeah, not my thing. Not my thing. All right. So

Mike (39:45.055)
Mm.

Right.

Mike (39:57.387)
Hehehehe... Uh-huh.

or a concentration camp.

Mike (40:07.691)
Yeah.

Mm-mm.

Bill (40:12.702)
We were talking, I don't know, within the last month about gifts and that sort of thing, giving and receiving and that sort of thing. So I don't remember if I took this out of something, but I wrote down in recovery, we need to understand the need or the difference between taking and receiving. And when it, I think I was in a reading, but my question out of that was, do you find it difficult to accept gifts from people?

Mike (40:20.873)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (40:33.767)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (40:41.886)
And does it feel like you're taking something, if that makes any sense?

Mike (40:45.826)
Hmm. Oh, that makes perfect sense. Right. Um, I mean, I have to be conscious of it, um, because I was such a huge taker for so long. Um, I do have to be careful and, and make sure that, you know, run it through the absolutes and all that happy crap. But yes, I have to remember that I have to be gracious and accept, um, that, you know, people, even though I'm a piece of shit.

Um, people still want to do things for me and I have to be grateful and gracious and accept those things that they do for me. Um, it's not easy. Um, you know, talk to Chris. I mean, she, she calls me stubborn all the time because, you know, do you want some help with that? No, I will do it myself. Um, and, and right. And it's, it, it's not.

Bill (41:36.616)
Right.

Mike (41:42.482)
It's not so much that, you know, well, part of it is that, you know, I want to make sure it's done right because I still have control issues, but, um, no, but it is a lot of it is from being a taker for so long that, um, you know, I want to be self-sufficient. That's very important to me in my sobriety these days. Um, so doing things on my own, doing things for myself, taking care of business, um, was something that I.

avoided at all costs for a very long time. Um, so, but again, that being said, ha ha, as I said again, um, but, um, yes, but if I have to be gracious and allow people to do things for me too, because it's something that they want to do. And, um, if anyone understands it's us.

Bill (42:21.342)
Hahaha!

Mike (42:39.626)
that doing things for other people makes your life better. Again, it doesn't make fucking sense, but I gotta remember it's a two-way street and people doing things for me is making their life better too. Not taking care of me and all that shit like it used to be, but actually genuinely doing something for me out of the goodness of their heart. Yeah, it's a tough balance for us. It is, it's definitely for me. But I've got to consciously.

Yes, be gracious when people want to do things for me.

Bill (43:13.302)
Right. And when it comes to, I don't know, for years now, when it comes to, and I don't remember if it was since I got sober, I can't remember now if it was prior or not, probably since, at least, definitely since I got sober, but, or specifically, is that like my kids, for instance, or anyone. I mean, I don't need, you know, my kids, for instance, but even Kathy, and I mean, mom used to always give, she'd give us something, you know.

gift card to whatever this and that. But I'd even tell her, I'm like, I don't need anything, I'm good, you know? But she wanted to give, she's like, oh, you know, here's 50 bucks for here, a gift card to Amazon, whatever it is, go buy yourself something type of thing. You know, but with the kids, I'm like, I don't need anything, I just, the only thing I want is, I want time, you know, with them. Whether it's a birthday, whether it's Christmas, Father's Day, anything like that, you don't need to do anything for me, just, you know.

Mike (43:43.037)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (43:48.382)
Right.

Mike (43:54.53)
Mm hmm. Right.

Mike (44:03.049)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (44:11.998)
Acknowledge whatever day it is maybe and then have lunch with me, you know spend some time with me. That's all I need and I'm kind of wondering if and I know I know now, you know, the time is more valuable than anything, but I'm wondering if that's kind of where it came from but the other thing too is that like you said in being careful with it because And I wasn't really thinking about it on the other side Like you said as far as you know, we need to give this thing away and we need to do things for other people

Mike (44:16.93)
Mm hmm. All right.

Mike (44:40.874)
Mm hmm. Right.

Bill (44:41.946)
as part of what keeps us, you know, the good people that we are. But that's a good point. You know, people do stuff for us because they want to. And if one of my kids buys me a gift, I don't get irritated and say, I told you I didn't want anything. Because, I mean, that would be, thankfully, that would be old me, not the new and approved me, whatever that is. But.

Mike (44:47.678)
Yes, sir.

Mike (45:00.608)
Right.

Mike (45:09.402)
Right.

Bill (45:10.61)
If they do get me something, I know it's because they thought of me and it's from the heart and whatever it is. Not that other gifts wouldn't be, but it's more of a surprise and it's really nice. I just appreciate the time, but I also appreciate that extra effort because they realize that they don't have to do anything. But they're like, no, I still want to get you something. Something little, it's this that I thought about you so well. You got me a t-shirt from Mexico. Mike got me

Mike (45:24.783)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (45:35.749)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (45:40.894)
I could probably get my headphones will reach over to that. I just did laundry today that the shirt's clean and in on my bed right now. But yeah, Mike got me when I got to Cleveland last week, I took my stuff up into the bedroom that I normally sleep in and came downstairs, was sitting there probably fucking around on my phone. He's like, did you see your present? I'm like, what present? He's like, it's in a bag on the desk. I'm like, I walk back upstairs and get it.

Mike (45:44.994)
Mm-hmm. Ah.

Mike (46:08.416)
Hehehehehehe

Bill (46:08.854)
And it is, it's a Harley shirt from Mexico with a really cool, um, like skeleton skull on the back with like fucking knives or something like that. It's, it's really cool, but thoughtful, you know, I mean, you know full fucking well that you don't have to get me anything ever, you know, but, but it was, it was nice. It was very nice. And I appreciate it.

Mike (46:16.802)
Mm-hmm. Right. Eh.

Mike (46:24.418)
Oh, I know. Right.

Mike (46:29.154)
Yeah, yeah, you know, right. Yeah, there I go, thinking of others again, god damn it.

Bill (46:34.87)
Right? Well, and still, and this was in an early episode, so let's go back to the first year, when we, to our one year anniversary, the gifts that we got each other had here. So here's the thing, and I've said it from the start, I've said this to Mike for years, long before we were doing this thing. He's more thoughtful than I am, and when it comes down to it, I know.

Mike (46:37.772)
Hehehehehe

Mike (46:48.033)
Mmm. Hehehehehehehehe.

Bill (47:02.634)
I'll tell him he's a better person, which he doesn't like to hear, but his thoughtfulness in the fact that he thinks of others far more than I would still to this day. You know, so our anniversary is a four days apart. Yes, mine's before his. I'm not going to fuck with him about it now because that's not the point of the story. I got four months from now, then I'll fuck with him. Right. See, I wasn't going to do it. It was easy. It was just fucking teed up there, but I wasn't going to do it. But so.

Mike (47:20.97)
You can fuck with me when I get more time.

Mike (47:26.045)
Hehe hehehehehe

Mike (47:29.642)
Right? I'm here for it. Gave you a gift.

Bill (47:33.742)
Right. So my anniversary, you know, one year anniversary is coming up, four days before his. And so he gets me this cover, a book cover for my big book, which again, I should go grab that. And it's a nice black leather cover. And it's got a place in the front with a coin on it. And, you know, he gave me a book cover. And I'm like, well, that's really fucking nice. Plus, on top of that, we're at a meeting at the Keating Center.

and he already had a coin in his pocket ready for me, which he got hijacked by this other guy, but still. He got Big Book cover with a little nice little coin in it, plus gave me my one year coin. Okay, so I'm like, wow, that's really fucking nice. Now, long time ago, in a year, yes, we knew each other, we spent enough time together and that sort of thing, but we sure as fuck weren't close like we are now, but we were good friends, you know, but it was still, it was just really nice. Right, right, but still, you know, I didn't...

Mike (48:26.95)
Right. Yeah, well, we're roomies.

Bill (48:32.722)
I never thought about it, never crossed my mind, but then again that's me. So whether it was that night or the next day, I'm just kind of like, well, since you got me something, what do you want? And at the time, you told me what you wanted and that's when I got you. So what did I get you?

Mike (48:47.141)
Hehe

Mike (48:52.362)
Yeah. You got me a cigarette rolling machine because I was a poor and I needed to roll my own cigarettes and, um, yeah. So Bill got me a very nice top of the line crank rolling machine. Yes. So I could sit there and in an hour's time roll a week's worth of cigarettes. It was beautiful.

Bill (48:56.79)
Ha ha

Bill (49:06.818)
Hehehe

Bill (49:16.246)
Right, but my joke at the time was, is that you got me something that was towards something that was helping, going towards saving my life. And I got you something that was basically helping you kill yourself. So that's the difference between Mike and I. And that's where I say that, again, he's a better human being than me. Cause I granted, I asked him, he said, yes, give me the thing that I'm using to kill myself. But I'm like, eh, okay.

Mike (49:28.382)
Mmm.

Mike (49:31.871)
Right.

Mike (49:37.337)
hehehehehe

Bill (49:46.134)
He wanted a cigarette machine. What am I going to do? Hehe He

Mike (49:50.058)
Right. Exactly. See promises now I can actually do these now.

Bill (50:15.774)
I think they were Mavericks. They were cheap, you know, the cheap ish. Almost like a knockoff Marlboro type, I guess. I've had both and they're clearly not as good, but cheaper. So you know, again, two, $300 I had. That went like fucking really quick. I mean, I don't know how quickly, but it went, you know, to whatever was cigarettes and this and that, the things that I'm buying, because I'm not thinking about the fact that I'm going to be there for as long as I was. So I'm just like spending money like I had it, right?

Mike (50:18.934)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (50:43.914)
Hehe

Bill (50:46.046)
So all my fucking money's gone. And then that's when mom, you know, our mom started giving me my $20 allowance. And I had enough money to, at that time, I don't think I needed it for bus stuff. No, I didn't need it for the bus. But I would buy a bag of tobacco. I'd buy a box of the papers because there was, when we first got to the Keating Center, what was there, two of those cigarette rollers, I think?

Mike (51:09.909)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (51:13.942)
Yeah, right. Yep.

Bill (51:15.486)
And then sometimes tobacco would be donated. So, you know, like house fathers and stuff like that, or guys would roll up cigarettes and guys didn't have the money to buy anything. You know, you could snag some free cigarettes and blah, blah. And, you know, for those of us who, you know, had a little bit of money, we had to buy our own and then we'd roll our own, you know, but you said they're fucking rolling cigarettes. Then you'd end up, you know, every once in a while, you'd buy yourself, you know, a pack of cigarettes. So you actually had something to put the cigarettes in.

Um, you know, but yeah, we, we lived off of, you know, those fucking rolled cigarettes for a long time, a long time. And I can't remember when I think I started buying real cigarettes right away. As soon as I got my first, let's call it my first real job. And then you rolled cigarettes for how long? First couple of years. Was it that long?

Mike (51:50.85)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Mike (52:04.502)
Yeah, man. Yeah, it was a year, year and a half. I mean, um, you know what? I rolled my own until I started driving again. So yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Bill (52:17.366)
Well, that's when you were working for Sandy and then you'd be off wherever the fuck and get them for next to nothing, right?

Mike (52:22.282)
Right. Mm hmm. Yep. Over there in Missouri or whatever. Right. Down in the Carolinas and Kentucky and Virginia. Yep. We're all cheaper. Yep.

Bill (52:27.37)
Right?

Bill (52:36.774)
Right. Well, and I remember years ago up in like anywhere there were Green Bay was a place that right around the casino was all Indian land. So you go to one of the gas stations there, you know, and buy cigarettes while I buy them while I was up there because, you know, again, I mean, it was fucking cheap as shit. I mean, comparatively, but yeah, so back to the whole and that's kind of what we got what got us on that was talking about the gift thing. So

Mike (52:46.402)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (52:55.554)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (53:01.842)
Basically, it's just we can accept gifts and we realize the point behind it. Other people need the same or have the same needs as we do. But I just, yeah, when I wrote that down, I was curious if you kind of felt the same way that I did about that. It is. It's hard even 13, almost 14 years later to sometimes to accept gifts from people. It's weird, but maybe it's a good thing.

Mike (53:09.621)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (53:22.994)
Absolutely. Right. Yeah. It's, you know, it's work. It's right. But I've, you know, again, I'm very, very mindful of making sure that I'm not taking advantage because God knows I could do that very easily. Yep.

Bill (53:38.602)
Yeah, yeah, that's, you know, the same thing is that, you know, we got to do the work so we don't take the drink. We got to do the work, you know, so we don't become worse assholes. Because I think we've admitted that we're still assholes, right? I think I think we've admitted that. Alright, so this next one that I wrote down is a it was from Keep It Simple. Once again, who knows when it was from, but the reading talked about being

Mike (53:50.092)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (53:53.446)
Oh, absolutely.

Bill (54:08.046)
talked about being stubborn was based on fear. So you and I have talked about everything being fear based to begin with, or for a while anyhow, but it says, today I will work on accepting my stubbornness. I will use it to learn what I am afraid of. Do you think that you are stubborn? And this is my question. Do you think that you're stubborn because you're fearful or, I mean, I'm stubborn as fuck in a lot of different ways. You know, I think you are.

Mike (54:16.513)
Mm.

Mike (54:34.399)
Mm.

Bill (54:36.322)
Do you think that comes from any sort of fear?

Mike (54:40.862)
Hmm. Um, I, I'm sure it does. Uh, um, yeah, definitely. Uh, you know, the fear of change, uh, which we hate, you know? So yeah, definitely. Um, you know, I'm, I'm set in my ways. No, you're fucking idiot. Um, right. Um, yes. And, and, and again, the.

Bill (54:43.252)
Ha!

Bill (55:02.545)
Hehe

Mike (55:09.418)
fucking balance shit, man. You know, again, a lot of my stubbornness comes out with, you know, um, trying, not allowing people to help me, not allowing, you know, uh, you know, and, and again, the fear of, uh, you know, not trusting people. And, uh, you know, because I know what I'm capable of and I figure everybody else is capable of that too. Um, yeah, it's, it's

Again, you know, I, I'm still working on this shit, people. My stubbornness, right.

Bill (55:46.766)
Well, and it was just, it was interesting because I've been reading, keep it simple, I think for, God, you've been reading it for what, two years now, so I think I've been reading it for three plus.

Mike (55:57.202)
Yeah, I think I'm starting my third year. Yeah.

Bill (56:00.29)
That's what I thought. So I've been reading it long enough where clearly I would have come across that before, but I just, I remember the fact that we've talked so much about and the readings do it. I think the big book gets into it and all these other things that we read about, fear being that main component behind a lot of things. But I just, I didn't remember, I didn't remember associating it with stubbornness, but...

Mike (56:22.357)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (56:30.174)
And I suppose that you made a good point, stubbornness comes down to the change, or maybe being afraid of how something will turn out if we don't do it. Because even if we're, I don't know, we get used to setting your ways and all those sort of things. Yeah, we've got all the excuses about why we're stubborn. But yeah, I mean, even I think back in, I mean, before I got sober though, so Dawn is a very, I'll call.

Mike (56:37.022)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (56:47.17)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (56:58.89)
I'll call her strong willed. I was stubborn and a prick and I call her more strong willed. I mean, probably stubborn she is, you know, but, you know, I'll just go with strong willed on that, but you get, you know, two people that are like that going back and forth and, you know, sooner or later, one person wants to give and one person is not going to be happy about it. And, you know, being the fact that I was not only, um, you know, a prick in general, I mean, narcissistic and all these different things, you know, but I was far more stubborn and far more,

Mike (57:03.37)
Hehe

Mike (57:17.762)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (57:28.646)
I wasn't as willing to even look at other ideas or look at other options, you know, to look at change, like you said. So you know, my stubbornness, I think it's gotten better. But I don't know. I mean, I try to look at things anything like that, you know, knowing that somehow, some ways it's fear based. I don't want to say I look for the fear and everything. But if I can't understand why I'm acting some way, I do. Now I try to look and figure out is this fear based because a lot of times it is. Right.

Mike (57:35.094)
Right.

Mike (57:50.283)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right, what am I afraid of? Yeah.

Bill (57:58.528)
Not always easy.

Mike (58:00.598)
Mm-mm. No, no, it's not. But, um, but the results of it tend to be pretty damn good because then we're not afraid because we've looked at it and we go, Oh, all right, right. Yeah. You know, and again, it's a lot of times it's trust issues and stuff like that, too, and faith and, you know, that leap of faith that, you know, letting go of control. I mean, God knows control is a big fucking part of our problem.

And that's manifested itself in, in stubbornness. There's my air quotes. Um, you know, yeah, I'm stubborn cause I don't want to let go. I don't want to loosen up and allow things to happen in ways that may not be the way that I want them to happen. But Hey, guess what? I've learned anything in doing this shit. It's I've learned that my way is not always right. Write that down.

Bill (58:35.706)
Hehehehehe

Bill (58:57.927)
Right, right. Yeah. And that goes back to, and I know we've talked about it before, but and I don't have this written down, it just reminded me of it. So the first thought wrong, you know, which is something that we were taught, you know, or it was said to us along the way. Do you still feel that this just has to do with what you just said? Do you still like feel that way that usually your first thought is wrong? Or do you at least pause on that? Or what do you think about that?

Mike (58:59.17)
Hehehehehe

Mike (59:11.878)
Mm.

Mike (59:25.63)
Um, you know, I mean, the percentage has certainly gone down. Um, but yeah, you know, um, I will give seven out of 10 times now, you know, as opposed to 10 out of 10, um, 14 years ago, right? Yeah. You know, seven out of 10 times. Now, my first thought generally is wrong, you know, so three, three times it's a, Hey, what do you know? That was actually a good thought. Um,

Bill (59:31.424)
Right.

Mike (59:51.594)
Still working on it. You know, I'm hoping by the time I'm done, it's five out of five, you know, half and half. That's what I'm shooting for.

Bill (59:59.484)
Well, and as I was thinking about that, what I was asking you is that even if my first thought let's say, I don't know, running through anything, whether we're running it through the absolutes, running it by another person, whatever the deal is, looking at that first thought and when it comes out to the point where, hey, that was the right thing, I'm still glad that I took a minute to take a look at it because...

Mike (01:00:14.082)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:00:23.252)
Mm.

Bill (01:00:23.926)
You know, I think that we've talked about this before that there's still this lack of trust that we have in ourselves. You know, we still wanna, which is, you know, it's like, yeah, we don't have to ask somebody if, you know, it's just the right way to wipe my ass. I mean, I don't think. I've been doing that well enough, I think, for the last, well, at least 14 years, 13 and whatever. But,

Mike (01:00:31.094)
Hmm. Oh, absolutely.

Mike (01:00:41.2)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:00:47.038)
Right. Yeah.

Bill (01:00:51.214)
But you know what I mean, these light things that we go through that, you know, we're 55 and 56 year old men. But we still, I mean, what seems to be maybe the simplest things, we go to somebody else and that's because that's what we're thought, that's what we're thought, what we were taught. It's always best, you know, to share it or bounce it off of somebody just in case, right?

Mike (01:01:00.89)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:01:10.026)
Yeah, right.

Mike (01:01:15.078)
Mm-hmm, right, absolutely. Yes, because seven out of 10 times, it's fucking wrong coming out of my head. Yup.

Bill (01:01:23.605)
When you said the seven, I thought you had grown to the point of actually being right seven times. I'm like, oh, you're giving yourself a lot of credit. I let it play out. I let it work its way out before I asked that question. But yeah, you got back around to it.

Mike (01:01:28.83)
Oh, please. No. Uh huh.

Mike (01:01:41.207)
I appreciate that. Yeah. Oh yeah. Nope. I know better.

Bill (01:01:45.43)
So the other thing that, oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. You know better? Good.

Mike (01:01:49.438)
No, I said I know better. Yes, right. And you know, with this video thing, our fucking delay is just a little bit more off than it usually is. So yes, we're stepping on each other a little bit.

Bill (01:02:00.022)
Yeah, and I didn't, I don't feel like I'm getting a delay from you, but I noticed that there was a couple of times when I noticed that you paused just for that split second before you answered. So I was kind of catching on that there might be a delay on your end. So, okay. But I'm hoping that once this magic fucking studio that we paid, you know, two or three hundred bucks a year for actually works all this shit out in the end.

Mike (01:02:13.218)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:02:25.989)
Right. I'm sure that the audio, the actual podcast is going to be fine. Again, I don't like this fucking video shit.

Bill (01:02:34.315)
Well, and you know what? I mean, at this point, and here's what, and I think that, I mean, as far as I can tell right now, and I just popped, I popped over to it a couple of times. I have not seen anyone pop into the studio part yet. I don't know if anyone's popped into, you know, to YouTube, but I mean, what, what we're going to end up doing is same thing. If you're listening to this podcast version, hop over to our YouTube channel and worst case scenario, at least give us some

Mike (01:02:48.822)
Hmm.

Bill (01:03:02.53)
Give us some fucking feedback, you know? Is this even worth our time to do it? Because we do have, we have the ability for people to, if you're connected, and I've got it all over the fucking posts I did on Instagram, if you went over to our YouTube channel while we're doing this live, and then, hey, yeah, there we are, hey. And I know there's a delay, there's a delay on the YouTube side of things, but if you went over to our YouTube,

channel while we were doing this and if you're on a computer, not on your phone, you could actually enter the studio with us and you could be one of the people and you could have a conversation with us. You could come in here and be live with us, you know, so that we thought might be cool or you can, you know, put a question in the chat box, whatever you want to do. But that's why we wanted to try this to try to make things a little bit more interactive. We've had people over the over the time frame because we're coming up on two years doing this.

People have said you should do an episode about questions. Have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? So yes, we've been thinking about this for a fucking year and now we're doing it. So somebody join in. So that's kind of what we were talking about, but yeah. But yeah, so after all said and done, if you're listening to the podcast version, at least pop over and take a look at this and see, you know, if it's something that seems like, maybe it'll take us, you know.

Mike (01:04:12.555)
Right.

Bill (01:04:25.054)
a couple of weeks to build up some sort of an audience. Maybe we do this once a month or whatever the deal is, or maybe we fucking never do it again. I don't know, you know, who knows, right? He's right.

Mike (01:04:34.283)
Right.

I don't know. I just liked and shared it and did what I was supposed to do. I did my part. God damn it.

Bill (01:04:44.046)
All right, so there. Boom. All right, so one of the other things that I had written this down a long time ago, but you actually brought it up. We were talking about something, I think in last week's episode, and you brought up the term or the saying, it's an inside job. The fact that I think we were talking about, it's an inside job, but we need other people's help and blah, blah. So it was one of the, a while ago that I wrote down the sayings, but what, I mean, to you,

Mike (01:05:06.082)
Hmm?

Bill (01:05:12.746)
What is Mike? What does it's an inside job mean to you? Over to you, Mike.

Mike (01:05:19.71)
Well, Bill. Well, Bill, actually, that was a quote from, uh, well, he hates the term grand sponsor, but I don't Bob, uh, Joe's sponsor. And, uh, right. Yes. Uh, our sponsor's sponsor. Um, right. Yeah. He, that was his line is his line. You know, um, yeah, it's an inside job, which to me always meant I've got to do the work, you know, um,

no outside influence is going to do this work for me. Being again, my old self, the lazy taker, do it for me. You're doing it wrong, but do it for me anyway. What a lovely human being I was. So glad I'm not that person anymore, but yes.

Bill (01:06:10.721)
It's...

Mike (01:06:12.53)
It's an inside job. It's I've got to do the work. I've got to look at myself. I've got to see the garbage inside of me and make the changes myself. Um, no, you know, I get, I get the inside, I get the outside influences from other people in the book and the program and the steps and, but it's all, it, it's all me and it's all inside of me. There's nothing outside of me that's going to make these fundamental changes to me to make me a sober person.

You know, and it's not putting down the bag in the bottle and it's, it's doing the work to change myself, to make me a better person. So I don't have to pick that bottle in that bag back up to try to cover up the fact that I'm a piece of shit.

Bill (01:06:56.49)
Right. Yeah, and it was just, you know, there was other, there was other AA sayings that we had talked about, but I don't remember why I had that one written down specifically, but probably just because I didn't realize or I didn't remember that came from. So that's not in any literature or books or anything like that to the best of your knowledge, is it?

Mike (01:07:18.506)
No, I don't think I've read it anywhere. No, that was, that was, that was Bob saying that it's an inside job, man. And he said it a lot.

Bill (01:07:20.513)
Okay.

Okay.

Bill (01:07:27.102)
Right. Yeah. And I just, uh, I, for the life of me, I, I wouldn't have had you not brought that up. And I'm sure you've, we've talked about it before, but, um, I would not have remembered that, but yeah. And that's the, that is the weird thing though, that in, and we've talked about this before and I know that I put it in because once again, I'm a, I'm simple as fuck and I'm a, you know, visual person and all those sorts of things. And for me, it's, it's kind of like, you know, that I look at it from a sports side of things that I look at it from an academic side of things.

Mike (01:07:35.393)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:07:57.27)
You know, if whatever football game you want to talk about that's coming up this weekend, if each team walked down the field and said, here's my playbook and the other one, there's my playbook. And they studied it and they said, we're gonna do every one of these plays step-by-step throughout the game. You'll know how to defend us or, you know, to be offensive against us. So even if they had all that stuff, if the defense doesn't do the right thing, those guys that are out there on the field at that time,

It doesn't fucking matter that somebody else gave them that. Same thing, you walk into a room and somebody says, here, take this test, but here's all the answers right here. All you gotta do is put this next to you, and on your test, just copy the answers. If you sit there with your thumb up your fucking ass, and don't write anything down, don't do the work, right? You're still gonna fail the test. So that's kind of the point with this, is that we had...

Mike (01:08:45.505)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Bill (01:08:50.078)
and still do, you know, around the Cleveland area and with the group of friends that we have and that sort of thing. We got so lucky to begin with, to be placed with and surrounded by and engulfed with Cleveland AA and the guys that we had and the meetings that we have and the direction. And if you wanna call it that way and get fucking mushy, the love and care that we got from these guys, you know, that they actually fucking cared about us even when we didn't give a fuck, you know, didn't give a shit.

Mike (01:09:09.055)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:09:19.298)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:09:19.554)
You know, so, and they said, just do this, kid. Sit down, shut up, blah, blah. All these, Marty, go to all these meetings, you know. Settle down, it'll be okay, settle down. You know, and none of that matters because they can talk to us till we're blue in the face. If we don't listen, we're fucked. So that goes back to the inside job.

Mike (01:09:27.862)
Right.

Mike (01:09:35.83)
Right. Mm-hmm. Right.

Absolutely.

Bill (01:09:41.206)
Okay. A very simple saying, but, you know, a lot of meaning behind that, Mike. All right, Mike, back to me. Thank you, Mike. So later. There's the dog. Hey, look at that. Oh, wow.

Mike (01:09:47.228)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Back to you, Bill.

Mike (01:09:53.782)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (01:10:01.497)
Wow. Intruder. Stranger danger. We got video. We could, the door is right behind you. We'll let Watson come in and yeah, snap your neck. It'll be pretty cool. Compelling video.

Bill (01:10:02.302)
Yeah, the only thing I fuck it. Yeah. If so, then you're, you're going to see me get

Bill (01:10:14.006)
Yeah, you're gonna see me get killed on fucking live video. But yeah, that's all. That's all three of the dogs barking. The only thing I, fuck it, who cares? If somebody's breaking in, fuck them. Boom.

Mike (01:10:19.656)
Nice.

Mike (01:10:28.606)
Right.

Bill (01:10:29.846)
All right, I have another one from, ah, here's one. Here's on a lighter note. I pray that I may live so that I will not be afraid to die. Now that was from the 24 hour book. I understand what they're talking about, but when you read something like that, what is that? I don't know, how do you interpret that? It's not meant to be a death thing necessarily, you're a downer, right?

Mike (01:10:38.332)
Hmm

Mike (01:10:45.896)
Mm. Right.

Mike (01:10:57.286)
Right. Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, um, I mean the, the Mark Twain thing, I'm, I'm going to paraphrase it and butcher it, but you know, um, live your life so that, you know, the, the town gossip doesn't have anything to talk about, you know, or the parrot, you know, that you live with, you don't care what it says. Um, yeah, you know, live your life. So you don't have regrets, live your life. So your conscious is clear. Um, pretty good fucking advice, man.

Yeah, you know, I'm, I'm looking forward to death personally, you know, I'm old and I'm tired, man. Um, but just want to lay down forever. Um, yes, but yeah, just, you know, again, clear conscious, man. Don't, don't do shit that you, that you regret that makes you feel bad. You know, Abraham Lincoln, I'm going to quote everybody here.

Bill (01:11:30.136)
Hahaha!

Bill (01:11:34.971)
Right.

Bill (01:11:42.254)
Hehehe

Mike (01:11:53.646)
Abraham Lincoln, you know, when I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That is my religion. Works for me, man.

Bill (01:12:00.854)
Right? Well, and that's one of my, that one that Lincoln won is one of my favorite things every year. Cause I had, and it was really early, really early in sobriety that I came across that in a, you know, again, call it a meme, but you know, in a picture post, I guess, if you want to call it that. And yeah, it comes up on Facebook and I repost that every year because it does. It's one of those simple things that has a lot of meaning to it. But,

Mike (01:12:08.34)
Mm-hmm

Mike (01:12:25.57)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:12:30.314)
Yeah, you know, the, and that's the thing, you know, with, and we've talked about, and you know, as morbid as it may seem, we've talked about that over the last, I don't know, probably over the last year, maybe even since mom died, you know? I mean, I know we talked about it before that too, but you know, I'm at the point in, I mean, I'd like to stick around for a little bit longer. I mean, the, you know, mainly because I want to be around, I want to, you know, we've gotten to the point in this whole sobriety thing where,

Mike (01:12:44.121)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:12:52.651)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:12:58.778)
I think that it's fair to say that in some cases, we might even be a pleasure to be around. We're not always a pleasure to be around, but I think our loved ones do get some sort of pleasure from having us around, and get some sort of positive.

Mike (01:13:05.45)
Hehe hehehe

Mike (01:13:13.026)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:13:16.35)
They certainly don't cringe when we walk into a room anymore.

Bill (01:13:19.95)
Right, yeah. And then, you know, not answer the door and not answer the phone for us. So you know, being there for my kids, being there for, you know, our family members, you know, our sister and the rest of our family members and my kids and, you know, I've got a grandchild and, you know, so yeah, I'd like to stick around for them. But also, you know, I don't want to be, I'm at this point right now and the same thing we talked about this 100% when mom died is that.

Mike (01:13:24.342)
Mm-hmm, right.

Bill (01:13:47.442)
The one thing that I was really happy about and content with is that there was no regrets that I had when she passed, beyond the point when yes, I would have liked her to stick around a little bit more. It would have been nice, you know. But there weren't any unsaid words, any problems that were not worked through. We had, you know, I made my amends to her years ago. You know, there wasn't any of this tension. You know, we had some of the tension with her trying to make

Mike (01:14:09.828)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:14:16.734)
and all that stuff, but that was just, that was life stuff. Yeah, that's just life stuff. It wasn't any deep stuff where, you know, when she passed away, I'm like, fuck man, you know, I didn't have a chance to fix this. You know, I didn't have those regrets, you know? And I don't think, I don't think that there's, at least there's nobody that I know of that's waiting for an apology from me right now today, you know, and I don't think.

Mike (01:14:18.818)
Mm hmm. That's a slight shit. Yeah.

Mike (01:14:29.39)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right.

Mike (01:14:43.205)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:14:44.95)
You know, if there is somebody out there and I don't know it, if they end up, you know, busting through the door and saying, hey, fucker, do you remember that day? I mean, I'll, yes, yeah. One of my amends just broke into the house. And one of the people that I've harmed. But.

Mike (01:14:53.534)
Right? That's why the dogs were barking.

Mike (01:15:01.936)
Hehe

Mike (01:15:06.31)
Right. But yeah, and that's the thing. Right. And, and we haven't continued to pile that shit up over the past, you know, 13 and a half years or whatever. Right. Yeah. We've been fixing all the crap that we did before, and we're not creating new situations that are going to require us to apologize and right again, you know, inside job and living, living good, doing the next right thing, man, you know? So if we're doing the next right thing, then we're not doing those bad things. And we're not.

Yeah, there isn't anybody. Yeah, me neither. Pretty fucking cool.

Bill (01:15:40.926)
It is because you know, I mean, it's TV and it's movies and all that stuff. But I mean, I know this shit happens in real life when, you know, some, some family member gets sick, some older family member, and then, you know, they're, they're calling for people to come by their bedside and then either they're, you know, they're confessing these, these things that they've been holding for their entire lives or, or trying to make, you know, make their, make their peace, you know? And I'm sure a lot of those people are trying to, you know, get right with God, you know, which you and I don't, I think, I don't think we have to worry about that. But.

Mike (01:15:56.766)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:16:01.966)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:16:08.475)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:16:11.146)
Um, but one, one way or the other. So, and here's the thing. I got to tell you a little sideline on this before I, before I say what I was getting, well, I'll fucking say it. Even if there is a God, um, I'm living my life the right way where even, even that, that this visionary thing, um, I don't think it's going to look at me and be like, you know, Hey, Hey motherfucker. So either way. So there was a, there was a post on Facebook the other day, and this was from, um, he's one of us. He is a part of the group that.

Mike (01:16:28.162)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:16:31.494)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Bill (01:16:39.714)
the club that you and I went to up in Wisconsin. He was never really, he was a meeting acquaintance. Decent guy, I had nothing against him. We were cordial together, never hung out outside of that. I mean, we're real close, didn't shoot the shit a lot. I wasn't close to him in any way, shape or form, but decent guy. He's got, I think six months, seven months, less than us, roughly in that area, but around the same amount of time.

Mike (01:16:43.219)
Okay.

Mike (01:17:07.138)
Okay, right. Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:17:08.898)
But he posted something on Facebook and it was this long thing and I don't read much of what he says because it's just, you know, blurbs that people put on Facebook. But I could see it was this long thing and I click open and I'm like, fuck me, so I read it anyhow. And something about, I don't understand why all these people out here have such troubles with those of us who, you know, believe in Jesus and this and that and whatever. You do this and I'll do that.

and go through all this different shit. And I'm reading this and I'm like, why do you fucking care? I'm thinking two things, why do you care about any other fucking heathens out there if that's what you think they are? Which he didn't put that, but you know what I mean. Why do you care what other people do and what other people are posting, anything like that. But on top of that, why are you putting this shit on fucking Facebook?

Mike (01:17:46.248)
Hehehehehe, right?

Mike (01:18:02.048)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:18:09.494)
And I wanted so bad just to say anything. I don't even know what I wanted to say, but I wanted to say something, but I'm just like scroll, scroll. But it's, I'm like, he's going through all this different stuff. And the thing that reminded me of it is when I just said, I think I'm living a life that even this mystical God creature would be happy with. But he said in there, he's like, okay, so if all of us Jesus people, all of us God people are wrong, you know.

Mike (01:18:28.486)
Mm hmm. Sure.

Bill (01:18:37.642)
We have nothing to lose, but if we're right, hey, kind of like, hey, I'll get me and you're not. And I'm like, fuck you. You know, I'm living the same goddamn life as you are. I know you, I know you, I know the shit you've done. You've been sober the same amount of fucking time as me. You're living a good life. You're a decent fucking guy. So am I. So are you Mike, you know, and so are all these other fucking people who are God people or not. We're all doing the same goddamn thing. It doesn't fucking matter.

Mike (01:18:42.826)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (01:18:51.106)
Mm-hmm. Right. He, he, he. Uh-huh. Sure. Right. Me?

Bill (01:19:07.67)
But on top of that, it blows my mind that people, I don't know, I don't like when people do that on Facebook. Kind of like it's almost like if it were, it's a waste of internet ink. Ha ha.

Mike (01:19:20.642)
Hmm, right. Yeah, yeah, you know, but it makes them feel good somehow, I guess. So whatever, you know, I mean, you took the time to fucking read it, man. I know I wouldn't have.

Bill (01:19:32.806)
I know. I know. But it's, yeah, I know. But I think that the thing that kind of just blows my mind even more as I thought about it is that, you know, supposedly aren't the God people supposed to be non-judgmental? And that's what, that's kind of what this whole post was about. It was just...

Mike (01:19:48.77)
Hmm. Oh, they're supposed to be a lot of things. Right. Again, I, you, you know what, man? Right. Lots of things are supposed to be a lot of things. Um, you know, again, yeah. For me, I keep it simple. Be a good boy. Let there all the rest of it could shake itself out, man. Let them world.

Bill (01:19:52.142)
Hahaha! Supposed to be a lot of things.

Bill (01:20:01.58)
Right.

Bill (01:20:13.002)
Right? Let them whirl. See, and again, I love that. And I don't use that ever, and I should. I was gonna say I don't use that enough, but I don't use it ever, and I always forget until you bring it up. But...

Mike (01:20:18.389)
Hehehehe. Mmm.

Bill (01:20:31.934)
Okay, I was looking at one more thing here. I'm sorry, I was trying to read my sentence. I should have just fucking read it out loud because that's more fun anyhow. All right, so one, yeah, fuck it, one last thing on here. So this is from, once again, from Keep It Simple. Two thoughts will always mess up if we let them in. They are yes, but and what if. So there's two thoughts, two thoughts, thought over here to thought over here. The first thought is yes, but, and the other one is what if.

Mike (01:20:36.606)
Hehehehe

Bill (01:21:01.566)
So I thought about that and just kind of wanted to get your thoughts on that. So those will always mess up. They'll always mess us up if we let those in.

Mike (01:21:03.184)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:21:13.634)
sure. Well, I mean, what if is pretty self explanatory. What if I don't know fucking what if man, you know, what if I fucking shit out clouds and of gold and spun? Yeah, what if man, what if is not real and who cares? And yes, but yes, but means nothing. Yes, but means yes, but

Bill (01:21:18.782)
Hahaha!

Mike (01:21:44.686)
Why even say yes, cause you don't mean it if you're throwing a butt after it. So just, oh, nonsense, man. I, you know, I don't have time for nonsense anymore. I am too old. I'm too tired. I yeah. What if, what if is, is fantasy and I don't live in fantasy anymore. I live in reality and yes.

Bill (01:21:52.161)
Right.

Mike (01:22:09.558)
but is contradicting yourself before you even get to the point. So, don't do it.

Bill (01:22:15.534)
Right? Yeah, I mean, I think I looked at the, so the yes, but is that was any, that's kind of an easy one for me because that to me is rejecting, you know, a possible, it's rejecting a possible idea and rejecting possible change that could be good for you. You know, somebody says you have to do this. Yeah, but no, yeah, but you have to do this. Or if you do this, you'll get better. Yeah, but no, yeah, but you know, that sort of thing. And the what if,

Mike (01:22:32.827)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Bill (01:22:45.986)
as a question mark, I look at it the other way and say, yeah, what if, you know, if somebody says, well, what if this happens? Well, yeah, but what if the other thing happens? I try to throw the other, in my head, throw the other spin on it. It's kind of like a, you know, if not, why not type of thing, you know? But if I don't do this, well, why wouldn't you? You know, you know, and I even look back at it at the point when people say, why me? And I'm like, well, why not me? You know? And that's...

Mike (01:22:52.959)
Mmm.

Mike (01:22:57.439)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:23:14.195)
Right.

Bill (01:23:14.27)
Well, and I mean that on a good side and a bad side. When bad shit happens to me, I'm like, fuck it, man. Why me? Well, am I so fucking great that I don't deserve, you know, something that's not super positive? You know, but on the other hand, when something really good happens, I shouldn't question that. Like, okay, so easy one. Why do we get to stay sober for, you know, coming up on 14 years and other people have to fucking die? Well, why not? You know, why, why us? Why not us?

Mike (01:23:18.463)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:23:39.371)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:23:43.914)
Well I know why, us, because we did the fucking work.

Mike (01:23:45.686)
Why not? Exactly. Yeah. We worked the program and they didn't period.

Bill (01:23:50.846)
Right. But I don't know, it was just one I guess it was just it was really. Yeah, but you have it. You have it. You have it. It as I was I was reading that, though, it just it didn't make any fucking sense to me. I'm like, what the fuck did I did I write down? And again, I write down its type so I can read this shit. But that's why I was sitting there with you know, that mild silence there for a minute. So and you know what a real podcast.

Mike (01:23:58.282)
Yeah, but, but yeah. Yeah, but

Bill (01:24:19.286)
would go ahead and edit out that silence in there. So it was funny. So last, right. So last, last thing. So Amanda that we're gonna end up more than likely having on, I haven't heard back from her yet for sure to get her schedule, but she's an author, one of our followers. She has a podcast, I wrote the book the whole bit, but she and I were messaging back and forth and I told her, I'm like, yeah, we don't edit anything.

Mike (01:24:23.33)
sure. Thankfully, we're not a

Mike (01:24:36.81)
Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:24:45.366)
And she said she doesn't edit content, but does that edit out silence and this, this and that. And cause she said that, you know, the majority of her listeners, she's like, people have a very short detention span, which I agree with, but I'm like, we don't give a fuck. We just want it to be like natural, whatever. Like, yeah, people have said that it's kind of like being a fly in the wall for two buddies having a conversation. She's like, yeah, we've gotten the same thing. Kind of like somebody sitting in with a cup of coffee, but she's like, maybe we have a different set of listeners. I'm like two things. Yes, probably. But I said, the other thing is I'm like, fuck it.

Mike (01:24:55.862)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill (01:25:15.298)
We just do it this way because we're not changing. In the beginning, we're like, this is how we're going to do it, which is like nothing. Then in the end, we're like, yeah, now we're not going to fucking change. But if, what if? What if? Yeah, but why don't we be fucking done? I think that's the yeah, but, right?

Mike (01:25:22.735)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:25:28.362)
What if? Yeah, but.

Mike (01:25:38.005)
You know what? That sounds like a damn fine idea to me.

Bill (01:25:41.013)
Alright brother, back to you to close us out!

Mike (01:25:46.366)
the video version Alright Well, thank you everyone for listening to another episode of sober not mature as always be kind to each other be good to each other Go out there and do something nice for somebody else this week and don't fucking tell anybody that you did it Stop being a bragger. And now it is that time it is that time kids It is time for you to fuck off then keep fucking off

Keep fucking off till you get to a gate with a sign on it saying you cannot fuck off past here. Climb over that gate. Dream the impossible dream. And keep fucking off forever.

Mike (01:26:29.156)
I saw ya.

Bill (01:26:30.053)
I was doing that to try to fuck you up because you said that you weren't trying to look at the camera or the video or anything. But alright, so.

Mike (01:26:31.956)
Thank you.

Mike (01:26:38.075)
I saw you flapping around over there.

Bill (01:26:41.074)
Don't mind me and my flapping. But um, so anyhow, so I don't know, maybe this is the, maybe this is the first and last time we'll ever do video, but we'll try to get, we'll get some feedback and see what's what. And fucking go from there, right?

Mike (01:26:44.29)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (01:26:55.774)
Right. All right. Yeah.

Bill (01:26:56.21)
Yeah. All right. So, um, whatever. I think we're, I think we're done. So you know what? I love you, brother, and I will talk to you soon. All right? All right. Bye.

Mike (01:27:04.042)
Love you too. All right.